Top
Best
New

Posted by nicosalm 11/19/2025

Precise geolocation via Wi-Fi Positioning System(www.amoses.dev)
256 points | 114 commentspage 2
UltraSane 11/20/2025|
I've had companies send us laptops for VPN access that had LTE modems and GPS specifically for location verification before granting access to the VPN.
sneak 11/20/2025|
Imagine having your services so poorly secured or authenticated that you need to protect Layer 3 access this tightly.
UltraSane 11/20/2025||
It is just another layer of authentication.
potsandpans 11/20/2025||
I don't think it's appropriate for a professor to use this feature. Am I in the minority?
mig39 11/20/2025|
It's a good sales job. Someone sold them a "high tech" solution for a problem that's already been solved. We had attendance rolls long before we had computers.
m463 11/20/2025||
> Apple’s instructional opt out page (appending _nomap) to the SSID.

this is good information.

on the other hand, it is pretty impossible to turn off wifi on some apple computers. (when I look at wifi, I get a greyed out off toggle)

You have to get into csrutil to disable the chips from powering up.

p1necone 11/19/2025||
Is it common for North American universities to take attendance? Seems like a whole lot of effort to gain little and infantilize your students. They're paying tuition, and if they don't show up to class they get punished by not learning enough and subsequently failing their exams/assessments. And if they don't fail their exams/assessments then clearly mandating lecture attendance for them wasn't necessary anyway.
wrs 11/19/2025||
I was punished by getting into grad school, going to the "meet the faculty" party, and having my Algorithms professor greet me with "oh, you're the one who never came to class". (I can't resist pointing out, now that it's safe, that it seemed like his TA taught quite a few of his classes...)
renewiltord 11/19/2025|||
You misunderstand. The customer is the government, which pays for student education through 'student loans'. The government is an absentee farmer who pays a farm labourer to produce a crop many years in the future. The labourer would rather take the money and plant nothing, so the absentee landlord farmer wants him to send photos of the seed being planted.

But why won't the crop grow on its own? It is strongly incentivized to live! And yet it does not. So you need to send photos of tilling the soil, planting the seed, watering, so that one day we might come there and see a harvested crop.

Ntrails 11/19/2025|||
> if they don't show up to class they get punished by not learning enough and subsequently failing their exams/assessments

My (UK) University was very clear that attendance was not mandatory, but if you weren't attending lectures you were not going to get any extra help from the lecturers etc

I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take, but it's nice if you _know_ rather than _guess_ who bothered to make it in to class.

washadjeffmad 11/20/2025|||
It's a protection for the faculty and students.

If you fail someone who rarely attended class, and they claim that they did, asked you for support, and never received it, how might you defend yourself?

If you have an excellent student who encounters a hardship, how might you petition for leniency to allow them to drop without penalty beyond a cutoff, or delay submitting final grades until they can complete makeup work?

foltik 11/19/2025|||
In my experience it’s common for large intro level classes. While I personally never liked these policies, I do think it’s beneficial to the average student to incentivize attendance. Think 18 year olds who aren’t able to self regulate or fully understand the consequences until it’s too late. A “pick yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality just hurts the average quality of education.
dataflow 11/19/2025|||
I think it's worth pondering why you feel paying tuition enters the assessment of the situation. The justification would seem to stand on its own either way, right? Or would your opinion change if tuition was free?
bigfishrunning 11/20/2025||
Mandatory attendance makes more sense if tuition is free, because it's not the student's resources that are being wasted, it's whoever is paying the universities.
dataflow 11/20/2025||
I don't follow how this implies mandatory attendance makes sense in one case but not the other.

If you believe lack of attendance is "wasting resources", then either you think the class isn't doing its part by teaching what students need, or you believe it is and yet students are not learning the material due to lack of attendance. In the former case, the problem is poor teaching, and so attendance isn't the solution. In the latter case, then the same argument would apply regardless of who's paying.

What's the logic here? Is there a third possibility I'm missing?

bigfishrunning 11/20/2025||
The logic is, nobody cares if you waste your own tuition money by not attending class, but people do care if you waste somebody else's tuition money.
dataflow 11/20/2025||
You didn't answer my question at all. I understand whose money is involved, that had nothing to do with my point.
bigfishrunning 11/20/2025||
Ok, let me reframe then. Imagine you paid for someone's tuition. Would you like them to go to class and get the education you paid for? If they, after several years of them not attending lectures, fail to be educated, was your money wasted?

Now imagine you're a big donor. You donate enough money for, say, 10 scholarships. None of them attend class. None of them get degrees. Are you likely to donate again?

dataflow 11/24/2025||
Again, I don't think this addressed my point at all. The whole premise that lack of attendance causes a failure in education is contradictory with the assertion that exams/assignments are sufficient for ensuring learning and attendance is not a necessary requirement. You can't argue it both ways just based on who's paying, the arguments are directly contradictory.
savanaly 11/19/2025|||
If you require attendance to graduate, then your degree signals conformity and grit, and thus has some value to show to employers who care about those stats but can't really measure them any other way.
djoldman 11/20/2025||
The question is, can we patch our browser to respond with whatever we want when getCurrentPosition() is called?

Then we can be wherever we want, super precisely!

tnorgaard 11/20/2025||
Does the "Stop broadcasting SSID" option in most Wifi access points / routers prevent wardriving or is the BSSID still leaked?
zamadatix 11/20/2025|
In this case the AP still beacons (which includes the BSSID), just with the SSID field set to "".
rudimentary_phy 11/20/2025||
Times are getting so much tougher. I remember my early morning organic chemistry classes using top hat. I never showed up to class, but I had my top hat app open.

The answers were usually kept simple, so I'd guess things like 0 or 1 (the questions were never written in the app). I think I ended up with 60% or so on them, which was nice, since it was a bonus component meant to be a little boost to the grade anyways.

friedgil 11/19/2025||
> Small digression: did you know that, until May 2000, GPS satellites (which are owned and operated by the United States Space Force) provided the general public a signal with intentional error built into it?

What the hell? Why?

00N8 11/20/2025||
They wanted to keep accurate global positioning as a US military exclusive capability. It's definitely useful for guided munitions, & alternative satellite positioning systems didn't exist or were less mature at the time, so US GPS was the only system one could realistically use for that. A missile able to hit a target within a 3 meter radius is vastly more effective than one that can only hit within 100m, for instance.

There are still some restrictions around this sort of thing: IIRC a GPS receiver for sale to the public isn't allowed to give accurate data if it's too high up &/or moving too fast, to prevent unauthorized usage in ICBMs & other similar weapons. I think there would be a lot of red tape involved if you wanted to buy an unrestricted GPS device without this limitation.

4gotunameagain 11/20/2025||
Which is idiotic, because nowadays it is trivial to build your own GPS received compared to the complexity of building a reliable ICBM.
DANmode 11/20/2025||
But they said 2000.
4gotunameagain 11/21/2025||
[] There are still some restrictions around this sort of thing..
0x457 11/20/2025|||
Error was built in to reduce precision and make it harder to use them for targeting. It stopped being useful once there were other constellations available.

GPS receivers sold to public also required to not operate at certain altitude/speed to prevent it from being used in ballistic (and probably other kinds?) missiles.

MaulingMonkey 11/19/2025|||
GPS started as a U.S. Department of Defense project, and they had qualms about freely giving the high accuracy positioning information they found so very useful for e.g. targeting bombs and missiles, to every unverified third party in the world. Depending on your preferred flavor of jadedness, one could say it was because of security concerns... or one could say it was because said third parties hadn't paid off the military industrial complex enough!
Jtsummers 11/19/2025|||
It was to degrade accuracy. Military (and presumably other gov't and allied gov't owned systems) were able to get more accurate signals. The degraded signals meant that someone couldn't use commercial GPS as a guidance system or for similar applications.
coin 11/20/2025|||
https://www.gps.gov/selective-availability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_...
godsinhisheaven 11/19/2025|||
Something something Yujio Hanma
guy2345 11/19/2025||
[dead]
abixb 11/20/2025||
Glad to see a fellow Madisonian make it to HN frontpage. Great work!
neilv 11/19/2025|
The root problem is that a lot of higher education is nurturing a culture of cheaters right now.

Your future doctors, scientists, government officials, etc... will have had to compete and gain coveted academic and career opportunities, in an environment that both has been heavily gamified, and is being overrun by cheaters.

Insulting measures like this TopHat practically endorses the culture of cheating, by telling students that they can't be trusted, and turning into yet another cheating challenge/task.

Schools with any integrity should be bending over backwards to find, nurture, and support students of integrity.

And to save those who only got admitted by being sketchy, but first semester is a chance to unlearn the bad lessons from before.

Not by treating them as criminals to be monitored, but by treating them like the respectable people they should aspire to be, and which the school expects and requires that they be.

And, for any hopelessly shitty students, who fail to honor this first semester extension of trust, the school should smack them to the curb. Lost tuition income, lost named buildings/chairs, and expensive lawsuits from helicopter parents, be damned.

FloorEgg 11/20/2025||
I have an inside perspective on this via an academic integrity company.

A couple weeks ago there was an exam in an R1 institution that double booked the facility so one section did the exam in person on campus and the other did it "from home". The score distribution of the in person exam was a typical bell curve, and the distribution of the online exam looking like a power-law curve with over half the students scoring 100%.

Thankfully this outraged the professor, and through a variety of means (which I will not disclose publicly) over 25% of the students were caught red handed. Actions are being taken against them, though I'm not sure how far they will go. The evidence against them is overwhelmingly conclusive. In some cases the evidence led to more evidence of cheating in other courses. It seems clear that more that 25% cheated, but I guess catching some is better than none.

As someone who is keenly aware of this crisis, I feel tiny bursts of relief when I see these small wins, though it does feel a bit like bailing an ocean with a teacup.

sneak 11/20/2025||
Catching cheaters is easy. The problem is that incentives are not aligned. Students are also customers, and you can’t simply fire a quarter of your customers and stay in business.
FloorEgg 11/20/2025||
I agree with the latter 100% (the biggest problem is incentives), however I don't agree catching cheaters is easy. It's an arms race, and reminds me of catching cheaters in video games.

Using every means available (multiple technologies and in-person proctored exams) cuts down cheating to probably ~2%... But online programs have serious integrity challenges.

Centigonal 11/19/2025|||
It also doesn't help that our outrage-driven media overwhelmingly exposes us to cheaters.

Everyone's heard of Theranos, Enron, Martin Shkreli, and Bernie Madoff. This week, my 70+ year old aunt asked me about Charlie Javice and Frank. Yet, there are thousands of very successful people quietly building their castles who live and die in relative obscurity because their stories just aren't that thrilling.

If you spend a lot of time interacting with people in the latter category, or if you have them as your mentors, then you will be exposed to a model of what success through hard work and integrity looks like. If you don't, then it's very easy to think everyone successful is a cheater, and that cheating is the only way to break the ceiling into success.

kace91 11/19/2025|||
It’s not about individual people - it’s just scale, paired with Goodhart's law.

No number in a spreadsheet will tell you who’s the genuine student. The moment you’re ranking like that you lost.

Long term human interaction in reduced groups is far better at creating genuine environments. But of course, that system doesn’t scale, and it’s a breeding ground for nepotism.

munchler 11/19/2025||
In this moral framework, would it be acceptable for the lecturer to take attendance orally, or is that also insulting?
neilv 11/20/2025||
The instructor clearly sets their expectations for attendance (whether it's mandatory, or otherwise), and then just expects everyone to follow that.
nlawalker 11/20/2025||
It is verification of attendance, specifically, that "endorses the culture of cheating... telling students they can't be trusted, and turning into yet another cheating challenge/task"? If not, what is fair game for verification, in the pursuit of finding students of integrity?
neilv 11/20/2025||
Finding students with integrity is hard now, because the culture is already full of poo.

But one starting point is to communicate that you expect and require integrity, explain what that means, and then expect it. Trying to make metrics or tests or whatever to detect, rate, rank, etc. it just turns it into a game, like the same load of poo.

Though here is one thing you can do. Explain that you expect integrity, and then watch the students raise their hands and ask how they will be tested on this. You say it's expected. Back and forth a few times, until eventually some of them start crying, and then their heads explode, because they can't figure out how to game that. Those students sadly were too far gone.

Then, after that first semester of integrity culture, some of the students who didn't explode will cheat, and they will be expelled with the fury of an angry god, and everyone on campus will know why. News stories will be written, word will spread, college guides will be updated. The next batch of applicants after that will have fewer cheaters than before, and will have disproportionately attracted students who aspire to integrity and who wouldn't have known to apply to this school before the news.

A school with an honor code that students and faculty take seriously wasn't that newsworthy decades ago, but it's news now.

JoshTriplett 11/20/2025||
> Explain that you expect integrity, and then watch the students raise their hands and ask how they will be tested on this. You say it's expected. Back and forth a few times, until eventually some of them start crying, and then their heads explode, because they can't figure out how to game that.

This assumes that the students are untrustworthy and the faculty/institution are ultimately trusted. In a world in which that is not true (such as the world that produces the article we're commenting on), and students sometimes encounter problems due to unclear expectations or vague criteria that are not the student's fault, it is not unreasonable for people to ask questions whose goal is to find out the actual non-vague criteria to avoid unpleasant surprises.

By way of one of many examples: many excellent classes encourage students to talk about assignments with each other, as long as the work they turn in is their own. Now consider what happens if a student accustomed to such a policy encounters a class taught with a different policy, where that policy has not been made clear in advance.

Honor codes and integrity are excellent things to enforce. Transparency and crystal-clear criteria are also excellent things to enforce. Not to allow gaming the system, but to ensure the system doesn't game anyone.

neilv 11/20/2025||
> This assumes that the students are untrustworthy and the faculty/institution are ultimately trusted.

True. This proposal requires expecting and requiring the faculty to have integrity.

And you really need the college/university as a whole to commit to this, not just isolated professors, partly so that there can be no confusion by students.

(Some battle-scarred faculty and grad students could tell speak of entire departments that need to be shut down completely, because the administration and faculty are too far gone. I think you could never do this with one of those departments. You'd only get posturing, and the same arrogant and underhanded behaviors as before, and students would briefly be a little confused, but quickly realize that the old sketchy game-playing is still fully on.)

JoshTriplett 11/20/2025||
> True. This proposal requires expecting and requiring the faculty to have integrity.

Not just integrity, but also consistency, objectivity, absence of caprice or bias...

More comments...