Top
Best
New

Posted by osm3000 2 hours ago

Debunking the Myths of the HBO Chernobyl series (2023)(blog.osm-ai.net)
39 points | 47 comments
chemotaxis 1 hour ago|
This is a really weird post. The thrust appears to be a contrarian desire to portray the Soviet government as capable and competent, and I wonder if it's the author's naivete or some sort of an agenda. The post latches on small discrepancies, but somehow ignores the entire impetus of Legasov's tapes. He sure didn't record them to praise the government:

"And when I visited the Chernobyl station after the accident and saw what was happening there, I myself drew a precise and unequivocal conclusion, that the Chernobyl disaster is an apotheosis, the pinnacle of all the mismanagement that has been carried out for decades in our country."

The show is obviously a "based on a true story" dramatization that invented personas, added tension where little existed, and so forth. But the overall thesis checks out: it was a massive failure of governance before the disaster and during it, including the well-documented fact that the Soviets were initially withholding information from the rest of the world and turning down aid.

amiga386 27 minutes ago|
Yes, this is a very odd take. There are many other things in Legasov's tapes but not the miniseries, that very much get to the heart of the Soviet system of government. Where in the article is there space to discuss points like these?

> The fault of Anatoly Pavlovich Alexandrov is that he, albeit reluctantly, consented. He was against it, objected to it together with the experts, but then went on to meet the stubborn requirements of State Planning Committee and the Ministry of Energy, that stations can be built without containments.

> Sidorenko Viktor Alekseyevich, the director of the Department of Nuclear Reactors at our institute, the author of this doctoral dissertation and this book, was expelled from the institute. He had to leave the institute. Because his own colleagues didn’t understand him. But why didn’t they understand him? Because his colleagues got bonuses from the Ministry; because the institute was part of the Ministry of Medium Machine Building. Do you understand? They see the director, who is a corresponding member of the Academy of Sciences, and their [own] salary is lousy. If he doesn’t get a bonus of 100 roubles, he will survive. But I get only 180 and for me, a bonus of 100 roubles is important. If I “squeal” about the cost of these containments, then I will not get a bonus. If I say something wrong, I will not be published and my dissertation will fail.

dylan604 1 hour ago||
It's funny that this series seems as if it is being confused as a documentary. It was a dramatic telling of a story. Creative licensing was in full effect. The first item in the "Series VS tapes: point by point" is a very common use of that creative licensing. Trying to follow multiple people in a work like this gets tiring and a bit boring. The details are kept, but it's easier to follow when those multiple people are written as one character. It's why the term "littleuns" was used in Lord of The Flies as the individuals were not important to the story, just the fact they were there and needed to be considered allowed the story to not get bogged down.

The series was also told completely in ~8 hours of content, yet this event clearly took longer than 8 hours to play out. Why no critique on that?

nebula8804 59 minutes ago||
Furthermore it is explicitly told on screen at the very ending of the series that the character of Ulana Khomyuk was created to represent all of these scientists.

[1]:https://youtu.be/OHrVlyU3suk?t=45

Did the author miss the ending?

mingus88 1 hour ago|||
Sadly, most people aren’t readers. I saw an article the other day stating the percentage of people who read for pleasure has declined into the low teens

The true story of Chernobyl isn’t going to land with folk today. We’ve lost the attention span for anything longer than a slick miniseries with A list actors. Even then, most people I know haven’t seen the show, which is amazing.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12496190/

nebula8804 46 minutes ago||
Books are taking a backseat to Movies. Movies are taking a backseat to Mini series. Mini series are taking a backseat to Video Games. Video Games are taking a back seat to Youtube.

There are only 24 hours in a day and no one gets more. This results in shifting preferences for consumption patterns over time.

I hear boomers spend all their time in movie theaters instead of sitting down and reading a good book. Don't they know movies are evil and are going to rot their brains?

I hear Gen X loves to watch TV. What a bunch of 'slackers'. What's with these shows like Sienfeld? Its a show about nothing! Why would anyone watch that?

I hear millennials are spending all their time playing video games instead of watching quality TV. What is it with this PlayStation nonsense? Its a TOY!

I hear Gen-Z loves to just sit around and watch people play games instead of playing them. Have their brains completely rotted?

I hear Gen Alpha does not even bother with people playing and just watches the output of game engines as the old kids would say 'I don't even': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WePNs-G7puA

Long story short: Cultural preferences change over time. My view is Let them cook :)

swatcoder 36 minutes ago||
> Cultural preferences change over time.

Sure. And historically, major such changes also often came with meaningful societal consequences. Shifts in power, wealth concentration, equality, capability, liberty, resilience, stability, cohesion, ingenuity, all sorts of thing.

You can hold whatever view you'd like, but assuming a cultural change is inherently for the best just because its a big or widespread one might leave you a little blindsided someday.

nebula8804 21 minutes ago||
Well I am not saying that it is automatically good, I said Let them cook ie. Lets see how things turn out, the journey will certainly be interesting.

I will concede that I default to the positive view that generations will find a way to figure things out for themselves.

For example Gen-Z seems to be growing up with a lot of anxiety caused by screen time + a mean towards more demanding expectations growing up.

This is leading towards a greater acceptance towards 'disconnecting' from all tech as they age and a greater acceptance for treating hallicugunans as a form of medicine that makes sense for some people and not as a thing to fear. And these people are only in their 20s. Who knows what they will eventually turn out as.

swatcoder 6 minutes ago||
Fair enough.

Although it's sort of ironic that the living generation most famous for radically questioning the demanding society they were growing up into and opening their minds to escape and growth through hallucingens is the same one that's since been assigned a pejorative name by those same kids and cast by them as the great villian of our age.

So maybe something like that, if history repeats as much as it seems to.

somerandomqaguy 1 hour ago||
It happens. The Jaws movies brought a lot of shark panic to public consciousness despite how utterly rare shark attacks are. The China Syndrome's effect on the nuclear industry given it's timing with Three Mile island.

Probably more that I'm not aware of but it's common enough phenomenon.

mvkel 1 hour ago||
> Legasov commended the swiftness and efficiency of the government response at all levels

Sure, but in those times, he would be compelled to say such things. That doesn't mean he believed it.

It seems the main faults that OP finds in the show are that Legasov had issues with his government, when in "reality" he thought they were great. But is that "reality," or oppression?

I also don't see the fault in highlighting him as the "main" scientist; it's a show.

osm3000 1 hour ago|
> It seems the main faults that OP finds in the show are that Legasov had issues with his government, when in "reality" he thought they were great. But is that "reality," or oppression?

The tapes were framed in the HBO as an honest message of a dying man to the world to expose the lies that happened. Well, after Going through the tapes, I couldn't find any indication of that...only the opposite.

Now I concede that I don't really know what actually happened, and one can't put a price on the intensity of the situation for everyone at that time.

My point is simple: HBO series said Legasov's position was something that wasn't true

mvkel 15 minutes ago||
Sure, but in any case you're going to cherry-pick inaccuracies, wouldn't it be fair to balance them with the "remarkably accurate recreations," according to historians[0]? Especially since it's couched as a historical drama, not a documentary.

Should we debate the accuracy of Marvel movies?

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20190610100414/https://www.cbsne...

osm3000 2 minutes ago||
I am not sure why you are mentioning historians here. A proper historical view/investigation is way outside of my scope.

My angle is simple: they said it was accurate, and Legasov did so and said that...and in his own words, he negated most of that.

Is Legasov a good guy? I don't know. Was he honest in what he said? I don't know...but he said what he said!

> cherry-pick inaccuracies

Feel free to go to the tapes

tptacek 1 hour ago||
M. Gessen wrote a much better piece about the accuracy of HBO's Chernobyl:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-hbos-cher...

This piece seems a little confused, since Legasov wasn't the primary source for the show?

osm3000 50 minutes ago||
I've mentioned her article. I think she barely touched the topic of Chernobyl itself. Her points was about what the Soviet life was back then, and some depictions of this was incorrect.

For example (for her article)

> In Episode 2, for example, the Central Committee member Boris Shcherbina (Stellan Skarsgård) threatens to have Legasov shot if he doesn’t tell him how a nuclear reactor works. There are a lot of people throughout the series who appear to act out of fear of being shot. This is inaccurate: summary executions, or even delayed executions on orders of a single apparatchik, were not a feature of Soviet life after the nineteen-thirties. By and large, Soviet people did what they were told without being threatened with guns or any punishment.

Her point was: this is not the Soviet way back then. My point is: these two people barely interacted directly, and one of them at least (Legasov) had a lot of respect for the other from the very beginning

tptacek 48 minutes ago||
Again, it's weird, because Legosov isn't even the primary source for the series, which is an explicitly fictionalized recounting of what happened. As Gessen points out, your thing about Legasov being part of a team is literally a character in the series!
osm3000 42 minutes ago||
> because Legosov isn't even the primary source for the series

I think it was explicit that the series framed the tapes as the "revelation"; the honest message of a dying man to the world to expose what actually happened

tptacek 31 minutes ago||
I think you're over-reading what was really just a dramatic framing for the series. The author was explicit that he used composite characters and multiple sources.

It's not a documentary! That doesn't mean you can't criticize it (Gessen sure did). It's that a lot of the kinds of criticisms you make don't make sense given what the show is.

muxl 28 minutes ago||
The show makes reference to "Midnight in Chernobyl" in its epilogue, I think it's safe to say it was one of the main sources of information for the show (though of course they took liberties because it was a historical drama).
tptacek 26 minutes ago||
Mazin has talked about "Voices From Chernobyl" more than any other source.

I used as many sources as I could find. I was looking at research articles in scientific journals; I was looking at governmental reports; I was looking at books written by former Soviet scientists who were at Chernobyl; I was reading books by Western historians who had looked at Chernobyl. I watched documentaries; I read first-person documents.

And then there was Voices From Chernobyl, which is unique. What Svetlana Alexievich did there, I think, was capture an aspect of history we rarely see, which is the story of the people who you wouldn’t otherwise even know existed. We look at history from the point of view of the big movers, the big players, and she looks at history through the eyes of human beings. They’re all equal to her: Whether they are generals or party leaders or peasants, it doesn’t matter. And I thought that was just beautiful. It really inspired me.

So again this idea that anything not in the Legasov tapes was invented --- no. The show is a fictionalized retelling, but no, that criticism doesn't stand.

ChrisMarshallNY 1 hour ago||
It was a good show. I've re-watched it a couple of times. The actors are excellent, and it's well-done.

I take it for granted that a lot of it was amped up for drama, but other sources (several documentaries) seem to agree on a lot of the actions and timelines. The show added motivations, and some fictional characters.

I also enjoyed Dopesick, and that's a subject that I have direct experience and knowledge of. I have pretty much the same issues with that show.

But I still enjoyed both of them as dramas.

If I want facts, I'll do my own research.

hodgehog11 1 hour ago||
To be honest, I find most of these inconsistencies to be inconsequential for enjoying the film. The ones that really get to me though are the dramatic overestimates on the devastation caused by Chernobyl, and the effects of the radiation itself. Most of the effect of the film comes from this belief that the radiation really is that dangerous. When you know it isn't, it takes quite a bit away from the premise.
nabogh 20 minutes ago||
Hey Omar! I met you briefly in Grenoble many years ago. I hope you're doing well.

I only recently watched this series and found it very entertaining. But I never expected it to be very accurate. It's definitely been dramatized for TV. I definitely didn't get an anti-nuclear sentiment from the show, I mostly think they were trying to portray a negative view of Soviet Bureaucracy.

rl3 49 minutes ago||
>It was about Anatoly Grishchenko, a Soviet helicopter pilot who had served in Chernobyl and, like many others, had developed cancer as a result.

If there's one thing that pissed me off about the TV series, it was its poor to non-existent storytelling surrounding the helicopter crews who ran sortie after sortie right over the burning reactor—around the clock—knowing full well the grave risks posed by the radiation.

Instead, we were shown one disjointed helicopter crash scene amidst a still-burning reactor that made them look like bumbling fools attempting something futile.

In real life, the Chernobyl incident happened on 26 April, 1986. The Mi-8 crash where it struck the crane didn't happen until October 2nd, 1986.

Aviation was instrumental in containing the disaster during its early phases. Those crews helped save an untold number of lives. Their portrayal or lack thereof in the show was massively disrespectful to their contributions.

---

Between 27 April and 1 May, about 1800 helicopter flights deposit over 5,000 metric tons of sand, lead, clay, and neutron absorbing boron onto the burning reactor. It is now known that virtually none of the neutron absorbers reached the core. [0]

[0] https://www.chernobylgallery.com/chernobyl-disaster/timeline...

Symmetry 1 hour ago||
The bit about "The water tanks in the reactor were full, and the uranium fuel rods were at risk of melting through the water tanks, potentially releasing a force equivalent to a multi-megaton nuclear device and devastating much of Europe with radiation." is sort of complex to judge.

It is absolutely true that that scenario was impossible and couldn't actually happen. But as far as we can tell (documented in Voices of Chernobyl) someone at a similar meeting to the one portrayed in the TV show did really say that that could happen as portrayed in the TV show. But of course the audience is going to assume that things scientists say in shows like this are accurate.

osm3000 46 minutes ago|
That is a very good point

My angle was: HBO series said Legasov's position was something that was by far not true

vt240 54 minutes ago|
Dyatlov's interview from the 90s, which is still available on youtube [1], seems to fit better with the account given in the hit book "Midnight in Chernobyl" (which was the basis for the series,) than the story written for TV. To me the series just seemed like a rehash of the same movie tropes we've seen time and time again in dramatizations of the accident, compared to a true adaptation of book, which included a lot of updated analysis beyond the IAEA original report.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8__v9EswN4

osm3000 25 minutes ago|
I wasn't aware of that Dyatlov's interview! Thanks a lot for sharing it
More comments...