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Posted by evolve2k 1 day ago

Valve reveals it’s the architect behind a push to bring Windows games to Arm(www.theverge.com)
https://archive.is/AKhTr
399 points | 442 commentspage 2
zallarak 1 hour ago|
This may be a naive question: why ARM and not RISC-V?
cedws 2 hours ago||
The best thing Valve could do is nuke Wayland/X11/Xwayland from orbit. Wayland is a mess that apps still don't support and doesn't work with NVIDIA GPUs. X11 is ancient and screen tears. Xwayland is the worst of both worlds.
johnnyanmac 21 minutes ago||
Is the problem in this relationship Wayland of Nvidia? It is a shame that GPU's are pretty much the one big part of your computer that doesn't really conform to the general "ownership" model.
paulryanrogers 2 hours ago|||
What do you use or recommend?
cedws 2 hours ago||
I don't use Linux on laptops or desktops, only servers. I've been through all that pain. The userland has a long way to go to be a good OS everyone can use.
shmerl 1 hour ago||
You clearly didn't use Linux any time recently.
cedws 1 hour ago||
Nope, it still sucks. It's no good as an OS for general users. The average user has no idea what it even means to have an NVIDIA GPU, let alone be able to diagnose why their screen scaling is all fucked up or understand why they see stuff about 'killing child processes' when they press the power button.
shmerl 1 hour ago||
It is good, but if you didn't use it in forever, you won't actually know if it is.
shmerl 1 hour ago||
No, thanks. That's the worst Android did, creating their own incompatible thing. We don't need another NIH like that.
cedws 1 hour ago||
Android is a much more successful platform than the Linux desktop.
justsomehnguy 1 hour ago|||
More?

Linux desktop is non-existant, compared to Android

shmerl 1 hour ago|||
And that only created a problem by making the impact of that rift worse. So we don't need even more of such effects. Ubuntu tried going there with Mir, but luckily they figured out it was a really bad idea in time.
shevy-java 1 hour ago||
Unless I misunderstand something (not quite awake fully yet...), that's good right? Aka "play games on any platform" as goal. A bit with the inofficial goal of scummvm, to rescue old commercial games from vanishing for young, future generations.
the__alchemist 8 hours ago||
Does anyone know what the limfac is? The machine code produced is of course different on different CPU arches, but isn't this handled at the compiler level? I.e. lower level than game devs worry about.

The exception I see is if SIMD intrinsics.

jitl 7 hours ago||
This system allows playing unmodified production x86 executables on arm64. It doesn’t have anything to do with the developers.
the__alchemist 7 hours ago||
That's great, but begs the question: why not just compile the games for ARM?
wlesieutre 7 hours ago|||
Because this works for the enormous back catalog of games that already exist, many of which I bet companies no longer have the code or a working build system for, and for new games it doesn't require the developers to do anything because many (most?) of them wouldn't bother

They may provide an option for developers to distribute a native ARM build (which some are already building for Quest titles that can be brought over to Steam Frame) but one of Steam's main advantages is their massive x86 games catalog so they certainly don't want to require that

lunar_rover 5 hours ago||||
So Valve won't need to convince developers to do anything expensive and old games will also work. Most games on Steam Deck aren't tested by the original developer at all.

Windows on ARM games are extremely rare. Linux native means dealing with Linux desktop APIs and poor support in commercial engines.

Dwedit 7 hours ago||||
You need to convince all developers that all 117,881 Steam games need be recompiled for ARM. Hopefully they have a working build environment, have appropriate libraries built for ARM, still have the source code, and are able to do the testing to see if the same code works correctly on ARM.
fulafel 6 hours ago||||
Think back to the x86 32->64 bit transition, but much worse, since ARM is more niche and there are more arch differences.

You need all your 85 3rd party middlewares and dependencies (and transitive dependencies) to support the new architecture. The last 10% of which is going to be especially painful. And your platform native APIs. And your compilers. And you want to keep the codebase still working for the mainstream architecture so you add lots of new configuration combos / alternative code paths everywhere, and multiply your testing burden. And you will get mystery bugs which are hard to attribute to any single change since getting the game to run at all already required a zillion different changes around the codebase. And probably other stuff I didn't think of.

So that's for one game. Now convince everyone who has published a game on Steam to take on such a project, nearly all of whom have ages ago moved on and probably don't have the original programmers on staff anymore. Of course it should also be profitable for the developer and publisher in each case (and more profitable & interesting than whatever else they could be doing with their time).

Karliss 4 hours ago||||
It's a chicken and egg problem. Lack of ARM PCs due to software support, lack of software support due to negligible market share.

Same argument can be applied to Linux. Why not just compile the software for Linux. Not that the most companies couldn't do it, it's just not worth the hassle for 1-3% of userbase. Situation with Linux also demonstrates that it's not enough to have just the OS + few dozen games/software for which hardware company sponsored ports, not even support for 10 or 30% of software is enough. You need a support for 50-80% of software for people to consider moving. Single program is enough reason for people to reject the idea of moving to new platform.

Only way to achieve that is when a large company takes the risk and invests in both, build a modern hardware and also builds an emulation layer to avoid the complete lack of software. Emulator makes the platform barely usable as daily driver for some users. With more users it makes sense for developers to port the software resulting in positive feedback loop. But you need to reach a minimum threshold for it to happen.

Compilation for ARM isn't the biggest issue by itself. You also need to get all the vendors of third party libraries you use to port them first. Which in turn might depend on binary blobs from someone else again. Historically backwards compatibility has been a lot more relevant on windows, but that's also a big weakness for migration to new architecture. A lot more third party binary blobs for which the developers of final software don't have the source code maybe somewhere down the dependency tree not at the top. A lot more users using ancient versions of software. Also more likely that there developers sitting on old versions of Visual Studio compared macOS.

If you compare the situation with how Apple silicon migration happened. * Releasing single macBook model with new CPU is much bigger fraction of mac hardware market share compared to releasing single Windows laptop with ARM cpu.

* Apple had already trained both the developers and users to update more frequently. Want to publish in Apple Appstore your software need to be compiled with at least XCode version X, targeting SDK version Y. Plenty of other changes which forced most developers to rebuild their apps and users to update so that their Apps work without requiring workarounds or not stand out (Gatekeeper and code signing, code notarization, various UI style and guideline changes)

* XCode unlike Visual Studio is available for free, there is less friction migrating to new XCode versions.

* More frequent incremental macOS updates compared to major Windows versions.

* At the time of initial launch large fraction of macOS software worked with the help of Rosetta, and significant fraction received native port over the next 1-2 years. It was quickly clear that all future mackBooks will be ARM.

* There are developers making macOS exclusive software for which the selling point is that it's macOS native using native macOS UI frameworks and following macOS conventions. Such developers are a lot more likely to quickly recompile their software for the latest version of macOS and mac computers or make whatever changes necessary to fit in. There is almost no Windows software whose main selling point is that it is Windows native.

* Apple users had little choice. There was maybe 1 generation of new Intel based Apple computers in parallel with ARM based ones. There are no other manufactuers making Apple computers with x86 CPUs.

bigyabai 7 hours ago|||
...because there are thousands upon thousands of games that will never be compiled for ARM?

Just look at all the "native macOS" games from the 2010s that are completely unplayable on modern Macs. Then look at all the Windows games from the 1990s that are still playable today. That's why.

12_throw_away 6 hours ago||
> isn't this handled at the compiler level? I.e. lower level than game devs worry about.

But game devs (at least of a certain type) are notorious for thinking about low-level hardware performance right from the start. As a class I'm pretty sure game devs use godbolt much, much more than your typical developer.

butz 5 hours ago||
Sadly, nowadays very few, if any, game developers care about performance or optimizations. Look at recent headline about "Helldivers 2 devs slash install size from 154GB to 23GB" and it was done by simply deduplicating assets. Gone are the days of finding inredible ways to use less opcodes that game would feel smoother.
Yokolos 4 hours ago|||
I think we can all agree that performance is often an afterthought to game developers, particular in bigger productions, but HD2 is sort of a bad example for that.
12_throw_away 4 hours ago|||
But ... all that duplication was being _done on purpose to achieve better performance_ due to low-level concerns about access times on legacy HDDs?
micromacrofoot 8 hours ago||
2026 will be the year of the linux desktop
nosrepa 3 hours ago||
I used to have `echo "$((( $(date +%Y) + 1 ))) will be the year of the linux desktop"` at the end of my .bashrc
whazor 3 hours ago||
Linux desktop is getting better every year, meanwhile Windows and arguably MacOS are getting worse every year.
jsiepkes 7 hours ago||
If you ever get Linux to boot on your Snapdragon notebook...
ant6n 6 hours ago||
I find it kinda ironic that they phase out 32bit at the same time. I’d guess it would be easier to emulate 32but x86, although the difference perhaps goes away with a JIT.
simianparrot 3 hours ago||
Thank god. Microsoft has shown they don't care about their users as anything other than eyeballs to shove bullshit to for _years_ and Gabe called them out on it back with Windows 8, and Valve has been working on this since.

Steam Deck is fantastic to use. Good riddance to Windows.

SpaceManNabs 3 hours ago|
> Gabe called them out on it back with Windows 8

Context?

qwerpy 3 hours ago|||
Back when iOS and iPad were eating Microsoft's lunch in mobile, Microsoft freaked out and released Windows 8 with that new tiles UI framework ("desktop and tablet are going to converge so we need to dumb down the interface") and the Windows Store that was supposed to be their response to the App Store. Microsoft wanted all future Windows software to be released through the App Store. Of course, this was an existential threat to Valve/Steam, so Valve vociferously pushed back.

The Windows Store and its apps were so bad that Microsoft eventually scaled back their ambitions, but Valve has not forgotten.

aeonik 3 hours ago||||
Gabe Newell: "I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space."

2012: https://www.pcgamer.com/gabe-newell-i-think-windows-8-is-a-c...

SchemaLoad 3 hours ago|||
He made some critical comments to the media about the Windows app store and Microsoft's position of trying to turn Windows in to an iOS type situation with everything locked down. Remember that Microsoft had just released Windows RT and later Windows 10 S which could only run apps from the Windows app store.

This could have pushed Steam out of the market if it had succeeded. Valve then spent the next decade building up Linux gaming almost from scratch to reduce their dependance on Microsoft.

nullbyte 7 hours ago||
Yooo this is awesome, maybe we will finally get some game support on Macs now
bigyabai 7 hours ago|
Doubtful, the article is about FEX-emu and Apple has only shown interest in native ports of games to their platform.

Plus, it looks like upstream FEX doesn't play very nice with Apple Silicon in the first place.

jauntywundrkind 7 hours ago|
I was also delighted to see Steam has an effort underway for Android on Linux, allegedly a fork of Waydroid, that they are working on. Tentatively delighted because it's unclear if this really will be open source, but hopefully! https://steamdb.info/app/3029110/info/ https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2025/12/valves-version-of-andr...

I don't need Android apps that often, but it would be neat for the options here to expand and improve. I want to say much as Proton has accelerated things, but man, I am pretty lost now tracking which projects Proton encompasses and the history of where Valve backed/helped these efforts.

I still really want to believe it's collaborative. That good work is going to flow upstream, to collaborated Valve + crowd spaces.

N_Lens 1 hour ago|
Wow this is exciting news!
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