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Posted by evolve2k 12/2/2025

Valve reveals it’s the architect behind a push to bring Windows games to Arm(www.theverge.com)
https://archive.is/AKhTr
978 points | 854 commentspage 2
tonetegeatinst 12/3/2025|
Given how arm license is know to be less than friendly.... Wouldn't it be preferable to explore a RISCV architecture.

As far as I know RISC provides similar power efficiency and sleep that is like ARM.

moregrist 12/3/2025||
Have we seen a commercially available high performance 64-bit RISCV chip at production scale yet?

There’s a lot of work and experience built up for ARM through Proton and other tech (that can be reverse engineered to see how it works) like Rosetta. A lot of that would have to be redone for RISCV. Seems like a lot of risk in the short term for what’s not an obvious product benefit.

I would expect the high-end RISCV market to mature before a company like Valve dives in.

ahartmetz 12/3/2025||
>at production scale

You can even omit that part and the result is the same: nothing

ahartmetz 12/3/2025|||
>arm license is know to be less than friendly

Sure, it's not open source or anything. But ARM doesn't seem to be a typical greedy incumbent that everyone hates. They don't make all that much profit or revenue given how much technology they enable - there isn't much to disrupt there.

RISC-V is severely lacking in high-performance implementations for the time being.

dansalvato 12/3/2025|||
From the last interview question in the article (pertaining to Arm):

> We don’t really try to steer the market one direction or another; we just want to make sure that good options are always supported.

Sounds like their priority is to support Steam on the hardware consumers are currently using. Given that, it makes sense they'd go Arm in the Steam Frame, because Fex alone is already a massive undertaking, and Snapdragon is a leading mobile chipset for performance and power efficiency.

tonetegeatinst 12/3/2025||
Agree but I would argue RISC is catching up fast.
avianlyric 12/4/2025||
It’s not even close. Samsung alone ships around 400 million phones a year, that’s 400 million ARM devices a year from a single manufacturer. The number of total consumer ARM devices sold each year is in the billions.

RISC-V total total estimated market value is only around $10 billion, and I strongly suspect a single RISC-V chip cost more than a dollar. RISC-V manufacturing needs to increase something in the order of 1000X just to match ARM volumes, and even then it’ll be half a decade for RISC-V devices to build up meaningful market share of actual in-use devices, given there’s many billions of ARM devices out there which will remain perfectly usable for many years.

cpgxiii 12/3/2025|||
No one has yet produced a RISC-V CPU or SoC with truly competitive CPU and GPU performance and compatibility to the current state of arm64 or amd64.
o_m 12/3/2025||
It’s a catch-22: why build a RISC-V CPU if there’s no software for it, and why write software if there’s no CPU to run it?
cpgxiii 12/3/2025||
Until there's a common, well-supported, and sufficiently performant family of RISC-V SoCs or CPUs with support for existing well-supported GPUs, RISC-V support will be a massive pain in the ass of a moving/fragmented target.

This has held back Arm for years, even today the state of poor GPU drivers for otherwise good Arm SoCs. There is essentially a tiny handful of Arm systems with good GPU support.

echelon 12/3/2025|||
That's a geopolitical question.

ARM is Western

RISC is China / Eastern

Valve is just trying to outflank Microsoft here. And they're doing a magnificent job of it.

Microsoft has on at least half a dozen occasions tried to draw a box around Valve to control their attempts to grow beyond the platform. And moreover to keep gaming gravitas on Windows. Windows Store, ActiveX, Xbox, major acquisitions ... they've failed to stop Valve's moves almost every time.

Linux, Steam Box, Steam Machine - there's now incredible momentum with a huge community with more stickiness than almost any other platform. Microsoft is losing the war.

The ARM vs RISC battle will happen, but we're not there yet. There also isn't enough proliferation for it to be strategic to Valve.

chaosharmonic 12/3/2025|||
> RISC is China/Eastern

RISC-V was developed at UC Berkeley. It's roughly as Western as West realistically gets, short of being made in Hawaii.

> That's a geopolitical question

Sure, but that's not actually about where RISC-V is from. It's that it's a purposely open platform -- so much so that its governing body literally moved to Switzerland.

The reason it's a geopolitical question is more to do with what we did to their supply chains with sanctions on companies like Huawei and ZTE, and what COVID did to everyone's supply chains independently of that. Both of those things made it really evident that some domestic supply chains are critical. (On both sides -- see: the CHIPS Act)

Where RISC-V comes back in is that open source doesn't really have a functioning concept of export restrictions. Which makes it an attractive contingency plan to develop further in the event of sanctions happening again, since these measures can and have extended to chip licenses.

(Edit: I'm not saying any of this is mutually exclusive with valid concerns about Huawei, raised by various other sources. I'm less familiar with ZTE's history, but my point in either case is more of a practical one.)

lmm 12/4/2025||
> RISC-V was developed at UC Berkeley.

That doesn't matter any more than, IDK, the first maid cafes being American. China is where RISC-V is getting adopted, they're the ones who are running with it.

roflcopter69 12/3/2025||||
> RISC is China / Eastern

Imo this is a really strange characterization of RISC. I've never seen this before. I think you try to paint a misleading picture in bad faith, please consider this: - https://riscv.org/blog/how-nvidia-shipped-one-billion-risc-v... - https://tenstorrent.com/en/ip/risc-v-cpu - https://blog.westerndigital.com/risc-v-swerv-core-open-sourc... - https://www.sifive.com - ... - https://riscv.org/about/ -> "RISC-V International Association in Switzerland"

echelon 12/3/2025||
Sure, but that's orthogonal to geopolitics and intelligence.

US policy makers are actively attacking RISC-V and dissuading its use.

China has an increasingly large upper hand in the RISC-V ecosystem and can use that to remove Western surveillance and replace it with their own.

https://itif.org/publications/2024/07/19/the-us-china-tech-c...

https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/2023/regarding-proposed-u...

xpuente 12/3/2025||||
No: RISC is open ARM is closed.

I suspect that many projects—such as BOOM—have stalled as a consequence of this situation. If it continues, the long-term impact will be highly detrimental for everyone involved, including stakeholders in Western countries.

cpgxiii 12/3/2025||
RISC-V the ISA is open; RISC-V implementations need not be. There's no reason to believe that any truly high-performance implementations will be usefully open.
xpuente 12/3/2025|||
There are also many high-performance Chinese implementations that are open-source (e.g., XuanTie C910, XiangShan, etc.).

While achieving an open-core design comparable to Zen 5 is unlikely in the near term, a sustained open-source collaborative effort could, in the long run, significantly change the situation. For example, current versions of XiangShan are targeting ~20 SPECint 2006/GHz (early where at ~9).

echelon 12/3/2025||
Yeah, but then the US doesn't get to spy on you anymore ;)

Stuff tends to stay open until a new leader emerges. Then the closed source shell appears.

We've seen this with the hyperscalers and in a million other places.

Use open to pressure and weed out incumbents and market leaders. Then you're free to do whatever.

So we'd be replacing NSA spying with MSS spying.

echelon 12/3/2025|||
And since China has such a lead, you'll be using their implementations.

That's why this is geopolitical.

The DoD and Five Eyes prefer ARM, where the US maintains a strong lead.

ZeWaka 12/3/2025|||
*RISC-V

ARM is a RISC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_comput...

esskay 12/3/2025||
RISCV is at least a decade, if not two from being useful enough for mainstream adoption. Neither the hardware or software is anywhere close to being ready.
nottorp 12/4/2025||
The one thing that worries me is that PC gaming is going fast to requiring controller support.

Which is reducing the complexity of control schemes to either nothing or mortal kombat like combos.

Forward, down, forward, high punch to build a new city in a 4X in a few years?

utopiah 12/4/2025||
> PC gaming is going fast to requiring controller support.

Hmmm I don't know. I did play Elden Ring & Clair Obscur with a controller but I also played Baldur's Gate 3 on mouse and keyboard. I also play VR games with controllers or hand tracking. Basically I play with whatever the game recommends.

To me it's like saying PC game is dead because mobile phone is so popular. Sure a LOT of players, and thus money, goes into mobile gaming but that doesn't prevent proper AAA and indies games on PC to have interesting mechanics.

PS: if you are into these kind of things checkout exotic controllers in events like Amaze. I remember a collaborative where you had to blow in pipes to push a rocket in the right direction and plenty of weirder stuff. Really cool but totally niche.

nottorp 12/4/2025||
> Elden Ring & Clair Obscur with a controller

I play soulsbornes on consoles with a controller, of course. Because From doesn't know how to do any other control scheme, they have "console DNA".

But how do you play Civilization (<= 5, the good ones) with a controller?

viktorcode 12/4/2025|||
The one very visible trend in the last 30 years of game development was about reducing input complexity. It has nothing to do with complexity of games themselves. Now instead of fighting clunky controls like in good old times you fight game challenges, where the input tries hard to be as transparent as possible
nottorp 12/4/2025||
> you fight game challenges

Like "kill 100.000 mobs" ?

With the 2 options you have left because those are all the buttons :)

And autoaim because those sticks aren't precise enough.

But it's not first person shooters I worry about, because those have devolved into competitive multiplayer IAP fests that create toxic communities.

I worry about strategy games and anything with a whiff of complexity. Reduce options because going through menus with a controller is slow and clunky. Reduce options because when playing at TV distance you can't read a serious list of properties like wargames have.

mikkupikku 12/4/2025||
I genuinely think you're hallucinating this threat to keyboard/mouse gaming input for anything other than AAA console-first releases and for specific genres like action/fighting games. Keyboard/mouse is still by far the dominant input scheme for PC gaming and PC gamers are broadly quite firmly set on this choice.
nottorp 12/4/2025||
You’re sure developers won’t feel guided to get the steam deck and steam box badges for their titles to ensure more sales?
mikkupikku 12/4/2025||
Depends entirely on the genre of the game, the resources available to the developer, and the pressures they're facing from management. Most of the games in my library either have controller support as an afterthought or not at all. Controllers have been the minority choice in PC gaming since about forever and I haven't noticed that changing. What has changed is the gaming industry has created de facto standards and idioms for how PC games should handle. Play early shooters with their default setting and you'll get to experience all kinds of key mapping that send modern gamers looking for mods to fix it or another game to play. These days you can pretty much count on WASD for movement, the mouse for looking. Nobody ships a game with movement bound to the arrow keys or modal mouse look. Game developers now meet gamers where they are, and for PC games that is almost always mouse and keyboard, except in those genres where gamers expect controllers.
skibz 12/4/2025||
Controllers provide analogue controls (eg. thumbsticks and triggers) that most keyboards don't have.

If, as you suggest, the control schemes of video games are becoming less complex (Forward, down, forward, high punch) then surely the result would be more games that are playable with only a keyboard, not fewer?

nottorp 12/4/2025||
Heh the MK combo mention was a joke. Forgot I’m on HN.
dirkderkdurk 12/4/2025||
Original MK, Sub-Zero spine tear, sigh, the first one I ever did. Got me into gamedev. I appreciated it!
nottorp 12/4/2025||
Had to look it up to post :)

It was back in the days when we gathered at the kid whose keyboard could actually support so many simultaneous keypresses and did tournaments.

dirkderkdurk 12/4/2025||
Trying to play with 2 players on the same keyboard was a nightmare. On mine WASD seemed to cope better than the arrows, so there was always a rush to pick sides of the keyboard. Ah, good times.
shortformblog 12/4/2025||
I downloaded an unoptimized game and tested it (Stray, a few years old at this point) and got some graphical glitches, but between 10-20 FPS on a three-year-old phone. That it’s even possible is impressive, and I imagine it will only get better as more games get optimized.
Glemkloksdjf 12/4/2025|
How did you do that?
shortformblog 12/4/2025||
I followed the same steps the Verge reporter did: Downloaded GameHub, connected my Steam account. The initial boot was lengthy, but it worked.
LelouBil 12/4/2025||
Oh so they did not "adopt" Fex, they actually financed the leading developer from the start.
tomaskafka 12/3/2025||
Commoditize your complements (layers above and below).
unixhero 12/4/2025||
I suppose this will is in order to be able to push lower powered hand helds to penetrate further into global markets. Not everyone can afford an X64 Nvidia usd5000 gaming workstation.
dominostars 12/4/2025|
Given how expensive PC gaming is, between GPU and memory price explosions, I imagine everything Valve is doing, including recently announced hardware, is all in service of keeping Steam relevant.
stefanovic 12/5/2025||
I like what Valve is doing for the Linux world, but I'd like to mention that box86 and box64 have been running x86 games onto arm (incl. android phones) for a long time too... And it does that on Risc-V and LoongArch too...

There is not so much support from companies to this project that I know of, but the people behind box64 manage to make it a solid and fast solution to running windows game on arm.

ant6n 12/3/2025||
I find it kinda ironic that they phase out 32bit at the same time. I’d guess it would be easier to emulate 32but x86, although the difference perhaps goes away with a JIT.
debugnik 12/4/2025|
There's no point in emulating just 32-bit x86 when modern games are all built for x86-64 plus several extensions. If they could make devs target an arch of their choice, they'd ask for aarch64 and skip funding FEX.
bitwize 12/4/2025||
What Valve hasn't announced yet, but which has leaked, is "Lepton", a fork of Waydroid they're working on to enable Android gaming for Steam—in particular, getting Oculus Quest games going on the Steam Frame.

The future actually looks pretty good for indie gaming development on the Android platform, Google's shenanigans notwithstanding.

micromacrofoot 12/3/2025|
2026 will be the year of the linux desktop
nosrepa 12/3/2025||
I used to have `echo "$((( $(date +%Y) + 1 ))) will be the year of the linux desktop"` at the end of my .bashrc
whazor 12/3/2025||
Linux desktop is getting better every year, meanwhile Windows and arguably MacOS are getting worse every year.
sipjca 12/4/2025||
this is true, but linux desktop is still fragmented hell and will be for at least a few more years
jsiepkes 12/3/2025||
If you ever get Linux to boot on your Snapdragon notebook...
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