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Posted by ntnbr 7 days ago

Bag of words, have mercy on us(www.experimental-history.com)
328 points | 350 commentspage 2
Kim_Bruning 7 days ago|
This is essentially Lady Lovelace's objection from the 19th century [1]. Turing addressed this directly in "Computing Machinery and Intelligence" (1950) [2], and implicitly via the halting problem in "On Computable Numbers" (1936) [3]. Later work on cellular automata, famously Conway's Game of Life [4], demonstrates more conclusively that this framing fails as a predictive model: simple rules produce structures no one "put in."

A test I did myself was to ask Claude (The LLM from Anthropic) to write working code for entirely novel instruction set architectures (e.g., custom ISAs from the game Turing Complete [5]), which is difficult to reconcile with pure retrieval.

[1] Lovelace, A. (1843). Notes by the Translator, in Scientific Memoirs Vol. 3. ("The Analytical Engine has no pretensions whatever to originate anything. It can do whatever we know how to order it to perform.") Primary source: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Scientific_Memoirs/3/Sketch_o.... See also: https://www.historyofdatascience.com/ada-lovelace/ and https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2015/12/untangling-the-t...

[2] https://academic.oup.com/mind/article/LIX/236/433/986238

[3] https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/Turing_Paper_1936.pdf

[4] https://web.stanford.edu/class/sts145/Library/life.pdf

[5] https://store.steampowered.com/app/1444480/Turing_Complete/

d4rkn0d3z 7 days ago||
An LLM creates a high fidelity statistical probabistic model of human language. The hope is to capture the input/output of various hierarchical formal and semiformal systems of logic that transit from human to human, which we know as "Intelligence".

Unfortunately, its corpus is bound to contain noise/nonsense that follows no formal reasoning system but contributes to the ill advised idea that an AI should sound like a human to be considered intelligent. Therefore it is not a bag of words but a bag of probabilities perhaps. This is important because the fundamental problem is that an LLM is not able, by design, to correctly model the most fundamental precept of human reason, namely the law of non-contradiction. An LLM must, I repeat must assign nonvanishing probability to both sides of a contradiction, and what's worse is the winning side loses, since long chains of reason are modelled with probability the longer the chain, the less likely an LLM is to follow it. Moreover, whenever there is actual debate on an issue such that the corpus is ambiguous the LLM becomes chaotic, necessarily, on that issue.

I literally just had an AI prove the forgoing with some rigor, and in the very next prompt, I asked it to check my logical reasoning for consistency and it claimed it was able to do so (->|<-).

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 7 days ago|
^^; I think this post is close to singularity as we may get on this Monday.
ares623 7 days ago||
I think a better metaphor is the Library of Babel.

A practically infinite library where both gibberish and truth exist side by side.

The trick is navigating the library correctly. Except in this case you can’t reliably navigate it. And if you happen to stumble upon some “future truth” (i.e. new knowledge), you still need to differentiate it from the gibberish.

So a “crappy” version of the Library of Babel. Very impressive, but the caveats significantly detract from it.

dearing 6 days ago||
This is where I sit too. Obviously language is an expression of thought but the Library of Babel is a great example that language without intent is just garbage. You got me thinking of reading before the internet. You'd grab a book and internalize the subject, later refining over time with more books, experiments and other forms of conversation. That journey of developing your own model is undervalued in understanding. That first book could of be absolute shit but you couldn't know that.

I've been learning more about roses lately and the amount of information on them varies so much because the world roses live in is equally varied. LLMs make for a better search engine but you still need to develop your own internal models, worse yet - if LLMs continue to be refined off of cul-de-sac conclusions then all the wisdom of the journey is lost both to the consumer and the LLM itself.

globular-toast 7 days ago||
It's like a highly compressed version of the Library. You're basically trying to discern real details from compression artifacts.
ares623 7 days ago||
And the halls and shelves keep shuffling around randomly.
tibbar 7 days ago||
The problem with these metaphors is that they don't really explain anything. LLMs can solve countless problems today that we would have previously said were impossible because there are not enough examples in the training data. (EG, novel IMO/ICPC problems.) One way that we move the goal posts is to increase the level of abstraction: IMO/ICPC problems are just math problems, right? There are tons of those in the data set!

But the truth is there has been a major semantic shift. Previously LLMs could only solve puzzles whose answers were literally in the training data. It could answer a math puzzle it had seen before, but if you rephrased it only slightly it could no longer answer.

But now, LLMs can solve puzzles where, like, it has seen a certain strategy before. The newest IMO and ICPC problems were only "in the training data" for a very, very abstract definition of training data.

The goal posts will likely have to shift again, because the next target is training LLMs to independently perform longer chunks of economically useful work, interfacing with all the same tools that white-collar employees do. It's all LLM slop til it isn't, same as the IMO or Putnam exam.

And then we'll have people saying that "white collar employment was all in the training data anyway, if you think about it," at which point the metaphor will have become officially useless.

FarmerPotato 7 days ago|
I see a lesson in how both metaphors don't explain it. Bag-of-words metaphor is ridiculous, but shows us the absurdity of the first metaphor.
tibbar 7 days ago||
Yes, there are really two parallel claims here, aren't there: LLMs are not people (true, maybe true forever), and LLMs are only good at things that are well-represented in text form already. (false in certain categories and probably expanding to more in the future.)
voidhorse 7 days ago||
The defenders and the critics around LLM anthropomorphism are both wrong.

The defenders are right insofar as the (very loose) anthropomorphizing language used around LLMs is justifiable to the extent that human beings also rely on disorder and stochastic processes for creativity. The critics are right insofar as equating these machines to humans is preposterous and mostly relies on significantly diminishing our notion of what "human" means.

Both sides fail to meet the reality that LLMs are their own thing, with their own peculiar behaviors and place in the world. They are not human and they are somewhat more than previous software and the way we engage with it.

However, the defenders are less defensible insofar as their take is mostly used to dissimulate in efforts to make the tech sound more impressive than it actually is. The critics at least have the interests of consumers and their full education in mind—their position is one that properly equips consumers to use these tools with an appropriate amount of caution and scrutiny. The defenders generally want to defend an overreaching use of metaphor to help drive sales.

jrm4 7 days ago||
I'm partial to the metaphor I made up:

They are search engines that can remix results.

I like this one because I think most modern folks have a usefully accurate model of what a search engine is in their heads, and also what "remixing" is, which adds up to a better metaphor than "human machine" or whatever.

FatherOfCurses 7 days ago||
A few years ago they made the Cloud-to-Butt browser plugin to ridicule the overuse of cloud concepts.

I would heartily embrace an "AI-to-Bag of Words" browser plugin.

cowsandmilk 7 days ago||
Title is confusing given https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag-of-words_model

But even more than that, today’s AI chats are far more sophisticated than probabilistically producing the next word. Mixture of experts routes to different models. Agents are able to search the web, write and execute programs, or use other tools. This means they can actively seek out additional context to produce a better answer. They also have heuristics for deciding if an answer is correct or if they should use tools to try to find a better answer.

The article is correct that they aren’t humans and they have a lot of behaviors that are not like humans, but oversimplifying how they work is not helpful.

jrowen 7 days ago||
The bag of words reminds me of the Chinese room.

"The machine accepts Chinese characters as input, carries out each instruction of the program step by step, and then produces Chinese characters as output. The machine does this so perfectly that no one can tell that they are communicating with a machine and not a hidden Chinese speaker.

The questions at issue are these: does the machine actually understand the conversation, or is it just simulating the ability to understand the conversation? Does the machine have a mind in exactly the same sense that people do, or is it just acting as if it had a mind?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Kim_Bruning 7 days ago|
Chinese room has been discussed to death of course.

Here's one fun approach (out of 100s) :

What if we answer the Chinese room with the Systems Reply [1]?

Searle countered the systems reply by saying he would internalize the Chinese room.

But at that point it's pretty much exactly the Cartesian theater[2] : with room, homunculus, implement.

But the Cartesian theater is disproven, because we've cut open brains and there's no room in there to fit a popcorn concession.

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater

jrowen 7 days ago||
It just seemed like relevant background that the author might not have been aware of, adjacent and substantial enough to warrant a mention.

I think there is some validity to the Cartesian theater, in that the whole of the experience that we perceive with our senses is at best an interpretation of a projection or subset of "reality."

Kim_Bruning 7 days ago||
Oh right, and, if you're interested, there were quite a number of interesting discussion on the chinese room on HN back when John Searle died!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45563627

morpheos137 6 days ago|
Thinking can not be separated from motivation. It's really simple. Humans and other organisms fundamentally think to replicate their DNA. Until AI has a similar incentive structure driving it, it won't be thinking. There is no human behavior or thought that can not be explained by evolutionary drives. It is really perplexing to me how people think "intelligence" is some kind of concrete thing that just magically emerges from a certain degree of computational complexity. I argue instead that intelligence is an adaptive behavior emerging from evolutionary drives interacting with the real world. World models are not prerequisite but consequent of such molded apparatus. Machines won't become intelligent until it is adaptive for them to do so. There is no magic just evolutionary drives and physical possibility. Our current top down approach of "pre-training" LLMs is bound to fail because it does not allow for real time emergence of adaptive behaviors such as general intelligence. Mimicking intelligence through predicting the next word is no more intelligence than a photograph of something is an actual thing. Training a combinatorial network to interpolate images and words is not the same thing as adaptive self modifying behavior in the real world of physics such as organisms engage with through the set of behaviors that we call intelligence.
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