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Posted by ntnbr 12/7/2025

Bag of words, have mercy on us(www.experimental-history.com)
328 points | 350 commentspage 5
jacquesm 12/8/2025|
There is a really neat gem in the article:

> Similarly, I write because I want to become the kind of person who can think.

xg15 12/8/2025||
I think the author oversimplifies the inference loop a bit, as many opinion pieces like this do.

If you call an LLM with "What is the meaning if life?", it will return the most relevant token, which might be "Great".

If you call it with "What is the meaning if life? Great", you might get back "question".

... and so on until you arrive at "Great question! According to Western philosophy" ... etc etc.

The question is how the LLM determines that "relevancy" information.

The problem I see is that there are a lot of different algorithms which operate that way and only differ in how they calculate the relevancy scores. In particular, there are Markov chains that use a very simple formula. LLMs also use a formula, but it's an inscrutably complex one.

I feel the public discussion either treats LLMs as machine gods or as literal Markov chains, and both is misleading. The interesting question, how that giant formula of feedforward neural network inference can deliver those results isn't really touched.

But I think the author's intuition is right in the sense that (a) LLMs are not living beings and they don't "exist" outside of evaluating that formula - and (b) the results are still restricted by the training data and certainly aren't any sorts of "higher truths" that humans would be incapable of understanding.

Mistletoe 12/8/2025||
I’m still unsure the human mind is much different.
kayo_20211030 12/8/2025||
Brilliantly written. Thanks.
eichin 12/8/2025||
I'm just disappointed that noone here is talking about the "backhoe covered in skin and making grunting noises" part of the article. At very least it's a new frontier in workstation case design...
jbgreer 12/8/2025||
I thought this article might be about Latent Semantic Analysis and was disappointed that it didn’t at least mention if not compare that method vs later approaches.
emsign 12/8/2025||
So Trump is a bag of words then? Hmmm.
kaluga 12/8/2025||
A lot of the confusion comes from forcing LLMs into metaphors that don’t quite fit — either “they're bags of words” or “they're proto-minds.” The reality is in between: large-scale prediction can look useful, insightful, and even thoughtful without being any of those things internally. Understanding that middle ground is more productive than arguing about labels.
throw310822 12/8/2025||
[flagged]
Herring 12/8/2025|
Give it time. The first iPhone sucked compared to the Nokia/Blackberry flagships of the day. No 3G support, couldn't copy/paste, no apps, no GPS, crappy camera, quick price drops, negligible sales in the overall market.

https://metr.org/blog/2025-03-19-measuring-ai-ability-to-com...

awesome_dude 12/8/2025|
The first VHS sucked when compared to Beta video

And it never got better, the superior technology lost, and the war was won through content deals.

Lesson: Technology improvements aren't guaranteed.

grogenaut 12/8/2025|||
Your analogy makes no sense. VHS spawned the entire home market, which went through multiple quality upgrades well above beta. It would only make sense if in 2025 we were using vhs everywhere and that the current state of the art for LLMs is all there ever is.
PrairieFire 12/8/2025||
I feel like their analogy could have worked if they had pushed a little further into it.

The RNN and LSTM architectures (and Word2Vec, n-grams, etc) yielded language models that never got mass adoption. Like reel to reel. Then the transformer+attention hit the scene and several paths kicked off pretty close to each other. Google was working on Bert/encoder only transformer, maybe you could call that betamax. Doesn’t perfectly fit as in the case of beta it was actually the better tech.

OpenAI ran with the generative pre trained transformer and ML had its VHS? moment. Widespread adoption. Universal awareness within the populace.

Now with Titans (+miras?) are we entering the dvd era? Maybe. Learning context on the fly (memorizing at test time) is so much more efficient, it would be natural to call it a generational shift, but there is so much in the works right now with the promise of taking us further, this all might end up looking like the blip that beta vs vhs was. If current gen OpenAI type approaches somehow own the next 5-10 years then Titans, etc as Betamax starts to really fit - the shittier tech got and kept mass adoption. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but who knows.

Taking the analogy to present - who in the vhs or even earlier dvd days could imagine ubiquitous 4k+ vod? Who could have stood in a blockbuster in 2006 and knew that in less than 20 years all these stores and all these dvds would be a distant memory, completely usurped and transformed? Innovation of home video had a fraction of the capital being thrown at it that AI/ML has being thrown at it today. I would expect transformative generational shifts the likes of reel to cassette to optical to happen in fractions of the time they happened to home video. And beta/vhs type wars to begin and end in near realtime.

The mass adoption and societal transformation at the hands of AI/ML is just beginning. There is so. much. more. to. come. In 2030 we will look back at the state of AI in December 2025 and think “how quaint”, much the same as how we think of a circa 2006 busy Blockbuster.

grogenaut 12/8/2025||
Vhs came out in 76, blockbuster started in 85 (we went to video stores well before that when I was a kid), dvd in 95. I remember the sopranos making a joke about how dvd was barely taking off, they started in 99. Lets call it VHS had a run from 80 to 99, that's 19 years. The iphone launched in 2007, when did mobile become huge or inseprable from doing life (by force by so many apps), probbably in the pandemic.

I wouldn't say VHS was a blip. It was the recorded half video of media for almost 20 years.

I agree with the rest of what you said.

I'll say that the differences in the AI you're talking about today might be like the differences between VAX, PC JR, and the Lisa. All things before computing went main stream. I do think things go mainstream from tech a lot faster these days, people don't want to miss out.

I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm reading and replying to HN while watching the late night NFL game in an airport lounge.

XorNot 12/8/2025|||
Beta was not the superior technology, and it lost for very good reasons.
stonogo 12/8/2025||
Beta was superior in everything but run length, and it lost because it was more expensive than VHS without being sufficiently superior to justify the cost.
XorNot 12/8/2025||
Yes but that's not a minor issue: Beta's run length was so limited that it couldn't record or hold a full length movie or even a long TV show.
stonogo 7 days ago||
Only for the first year or two of release. Early VHS capacities were better, but by the late 70s or early 80s there wasn't a meaningful difference.