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Posted by italophil 2 days ago

Rubio stages font coup: Times New Roman ousts Calibri(www.reuters.com)
https://archive.md/x0Sxc
390 points | 672 commentspage 3
anigbrowl 2 days ago|
While mostly framed as a matter of clarity and formality in presentation, Mr. Rubio’s directive to all diplomatic posts around the world blamed “radical” diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility programs for what he said was a misguided and ineffective switch from the serif typeface Times New Roman to sans serif Calibri in official department paperwork.

In an “Action Request” memo obtained by The New York Times, Mr. Rubio said that switching back to the use of Times New Roman would “restore decorum and professionalism to the department’s written work.” Calibri is “informal” when compared to serif typefaces like Times New Roman, the order said, and “clashes” with the department’s official letterhead.

As far back as I can recall, this is a politician who has railed against 'political correctness'.

mullingitover 1 day ago||
It's incredibly generous to so many future plaintiffs to have this overt hostility to the very concept of accessibility and fairness and put in writing, so many times and in so many ways.
Spivak 1 day ago||
Like the choice of typeface is of literally no importance whatsoever but it is also the funniest thing in the world that there is now a DEI font.
rtpg 1 day ago|||
The thing is that some section of the right has convinced itself that Calibre is some DEI font. Meanwhile the rest of the world is just living life and having to deal with people getting this worked up about the default font of Microsoft Office since what, 2008?

Parallel universes

r0ckarong 2 days ago||
Good thing the world is entirely stable and the United States have literally no more pressing issues.
layer8 1 day ago||
Serifs should improve stability.
alexandre_m 1 day ago||
Was the world stable in 2023 when the font change occured?
treetalker 2 days ago||
Butterick on TNR:

(https://practicaltypography.com/times-new-roman-alternatives...)

> When Times New Roman appears in a book, document, or advertisement, it connotes apathy. It says, “I submitted to the font of least resistance.” Times New Roman is not a font choice so much as the absence of a font choice, like the blackness of deep space is not a color. To look at Times New Roman is to gaze into the void.

> If you have a choice about using Times New Roman, please stop. Use something else.

And on Calibri:

(https://practicaltypography.com/calibri-alternatives.html)

> Like Cambria, Calibri works well on screen. But in print, its rounded corners make body text look soft. If you need a clean sans serif font, you have better options.

- - -

To telegraph an identity, TNR is a good choice for this administration; so, credit where due, well played. Still, I would have gone with Comic Sans.

cafard 1 day ago||
For about ten years I worked for composition shops, and eventually for a maker of typesetting systems. Through blurred eyes I could tell TNR from Baskerville from Garamond from Janson from ... Some of these fonts I can still identify.

But I have no idea what font was used in the book I just finished reading or the book that I'm returning to later today. My main question about a font is whether I can read it with old eyes.

I do agree that designers should care about these matters. I'll add that for some portion of the reading public TNR more likely means The New Republic than Times New Roman.

[Five minutes later: the book just finished, What We Can Know by Ian McEwan, appears to be set in Palatino, never a favorite of mine. The one I'm returning to, I'm not sure.]

bsder 1 day ago||
My old eyes really wish more people used something like New Century Schoolbook.
Sunspark 20 hours ago||
They still do. It's the required font for all US Supreme Court legal work.
bjoli 2 days ago|||
People like this makes me want to use Times New Roman more. Maybe not Butterick specifically (the website is fine), but all those people that make a blog and pick a font before even knowing what they even want to write. Most of the time people change the default my web browser has, they make things worse. For a font choice to be any kind of personal expression in my eyes, you first need everything else in place: content, layout, design.

To spite these people I force the use of Arial on the worst offenders. The list is now a couple of thousand websites long.

eviks 2 days ago|||
But you're not spiting anyone, they don't even know about this, just wasting your time compiling a list of a thousand websites
bjoli 2 days ago||
Oh, I could have picked a other font. I just get a smug feeling when forcing these websites to use Arial. The main reason for using another font on these web pages is that their own choices are worse than not changing it. So that list of thousands of web pages is to make their web pages legible and more usable, not just to be a prick.

I picked Arial so that I could tell the web pages apart from those who had the good taste to leave my web browsers standard font alone. I don't mind arial.

jrochkind1 1 day ago||
Perhaps your smug feeling can cancel out the smug feeling the author/publisher had when picking a font before even knowing what they even want to write.

It's important to keep the smugness balanced, thanks for doing your part.

chrismorgan 1 day ago||||
> Most of the time people change the default my web browser has, they make things worse.

In Firefox: Settings → Fonts → Advanced… → untick Allow pages to choose their own fonts, instead of your selections above. I’ve been running this way for almost six years now; it makes the web so much better.

morshu9001 1 day ago||||
When there's an HN link to some philosophy website that intentionally only uses lower-case letters, an obscure font, and yellow on green color scheme, with a page explaining those choices
comradesmith 1 day ago|||
You can’t separate layout and design from typeface selection.

But yes I agree content must come first. Typeface probably comes second!

Incipient 2 days ago|||
>Still, I would have gone with Comic Sans.

I don't often genuinely laugh out loud at comments on HN, but that one was good! Subtle, classy, and a gentle yet effective dig.

deafpolygon 2 days ago||
Honestly, I like Comic Sans.

It’s clear, legible and whimsical.

rasse 1 day ago|||
In the context of documents, the lack of font choice regarding Times New Roman could be partly attributed to the fact that it was the default font on Microsoft Word until 2007. The irony is, of course, that it was replaced by none other than Calibri.
BobbyTables2 2 days ago|||
I definitely was thinking of Comic Sans. Both in terms of the horrible typeface and the “not funny” connotation of the name. (Yeah I know sans is referring to lack of serif)
MengerSponge 1 day ago|||
> I would have gone with Comic Sans

Funny, I would have gone with Tannenberg

nalnq 2 days ago||
The Times New Roman commentary could have been true back when it was written, but now Calibri is the default for Microsoft Word, and has been for a long while (almost 20 years). So choosing Calibri is the path of least resistance.
Zafira 2 days ago|||
Aptos has been the default font for Microsoft Word since 2023.
pests 2 days ago||
With all the fanfare made over Calibri back when it was announced, TIL about Aptos
0cf8612b2e1e 1 day ago|||
I enjoyed the argument that this is going to open up a new time point for digital forensics. Many people have doctored documents pretending to have made them in the past. Except they did not realize that the vintage software used font X, but the modern default is now Y. There have been a few court cases where essentially someone is able to say, “This font is clearly Calibri which did not exist at the time this document was supposedly printed.”

If you are a Deep Space 9 fan, this is where you get to scream, “It’s a fake!!!”

anonymars 1 day ago||
Example: https://valawyersweekly.com/2023/04/03/font-choice-exposes-f...
pests 1 day ago||
The more famous example being the Pakistani Prime Minister forging documents in Calibri dated before its release.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-40571708

adzm 2 days ago|||
Aptos is slightly wider and taller but looks very very similar to calibri, especially calibri a point larger.
rob74 2 days ago|||
So now Times New Roman not only looks uninspired and bland, but also dated? Yeah, I would say that's a good fit...
tyleo 1 day ago||
Never before has a font change been so politically divisive.

I’ll personally be taking my votes to supporters of Helvetica next election.

hnarn 1 day ago||
Helvetica is great for signage, but in my opinion it isn't great for longer texts.
dghf 23 hours ago||
Wasn't it originally intended for signage, advertising, titles, other display text, etc., rather than for body text?
oneeyedpigeon 23 hours ago||
Maybe not, but the BBC's use (and subsequent dropping) of Gill Sans comes close!
elzbardico 2 days ago||
I like serif fonts, but never liked Times New Roman too much. Printed, in high resolution, it is kind of ok, but I absolutely abhor it on displays. Which is where we read things 99% of the time nowadays.
carlosjobim 1 day ago|
Georgia, Palantino, Bookerly. Those are high quality serif fonts which suits every occasion.
manoDev 2 days ago||
Hilarious. It could be a Mike Judge script.
ranger_danger 2 days ago||
"Do I look like I know what a jay-peg is?"
userbinator 1 day ago||
I never liked Calibri when it was pushed aggressively by MS and showed up everywhere - I prefer Arial or Helvetica for sans-serif, and think TNR is a good default for serif, with Computer Modern a close second.
dghf 23 hours ago|
Computer Modern is nice on paper but a bit spindly on screen, IMO: Knuth's other serif font, Concrete Roman, works better for that.
Havoc 1 day ago||
This is why I'm seriously considering learning Chinese. Next 50 years won't be US lead.

When senior government officials are spending time & public mindshare/attention on whether a particular font is or is not diverse then you know it is game over.

The details don't matter...this being a topic at all is the news

CodingJeebus 1 day ago||
Read up on the state of the Chinese economy, it’s not a given they’ll be in the drivers seat long term either.
Havoc 1 day ago||
I know they're leveraged to the hilt, their demographics are shaky AF etc.

...but end of the day productive capacity is what matters. I don't see anyone close on that mix of pace, tech, low cost, ability to execute and scale.

A strong argument could be made on any of those metrics that someone could beat them fair and square, but the whole blend...there is nobody even competing in same league and that lead looks like it'll last rest of my lifetime

A_D_E_P_T 1 day ago||
> their demographics are shaky AF

Every major country's demographics are shaky. Japan and S.Korea are already shrinking. The US is propped up by, uh, low-quality immigration, and fertility has nevertheless dropped to record lows. The large countries of Europe are either basket-cases, tinderboxes, or both. Germany and Italy haven't had above-replacement TFR since 1970!

China's not doing great, but having a population reservoir of 1.4B can make up for a lot of deficiencies. If everybody shrinks or becomes utterly dysfunctional, I'd bet that a vast, productive, essentially monoethnic nation weathers the storm better than the rest.

Untit1ed 1 day ago|||
You certainly won't have to worry about them changing fonts as easily...
SpaceManNabs 1 day ago||
pushing for more literacy at scale is usually a good thing.

this approach is garbage, but i find your second line a bit odd.

it is also funny you bring up china because china changed their entire character system for diversity reasons (less educated people couldn't read).

soupfordummies 2 days ago||
"[Rubio] ...calling his predecessor Antony Blinken's decision to adopt Calibri a "wasteful" diversity move..."

Bro what. It was the default font in Microsoft for many years thus, it was the default font for most office software for many years -- just like Times New Roman was before.

What.

QuercusMax 2 days ago|
The article says it's better than Times New Roman because it's easier to read for those with disabilities - so of course the government needs to make things worse for them. Wonder if someone could sue over these kinds of changes that are being deliberately made to be less accessible.
wvbdmp 2 days ago|||
Is that even true? The article is really vague on the type of disability and basically just claims that serifs are harder to read.

Generally sans-serif is advisable for small sizes, although I assume the main things are large open counters, tall x-height and low stroke contrast.

I’ve often read that dyslexics favor strongly distinctive characters and “grounded”, bottom-heavy letterforms. I feel like serifs actually sound pretty good there.

It’s also important to consider whether such studies were conducted before or after high-PPI displays became prevalent and leveled the playing field for serifs.

benterix 2 days ago||
The wiki explicitly mension the typical sans disadvantage: "One potential source of confusion in Calibri is a visible homoglyph, a pair of easily confused characters: the lowercase letter L and the uppercase letter i (l and I) of the Latin script are effectively indistinguishable."

So while I prefer Calibri as TNR has been the default for longer and hence is more boring to me, I can understand people might prefer a serif font for readability.

xtiansimon 1 day ago|||
Yeah. I have a dis-a-bility. It’s now 2200 and I’ve been working since 0830. My eyes are tired and these 8’s look like 0’s, 5’s look like 6’s. What a tool.

Now! Everything in Fraktur! HH.

jcalvinowens 13 hours ago|
The verbiage in the PR reminds me of a bit from The Night Watch [1]:

> [...] and at some point, you will have to decide whether serifs are daring statements of modernity, or tools of hegemonic oppression that implicitly support feudalism and illiteracy

[1] https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf

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