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Posted by saigrandhi 1 day ago

Is it a bubble?(www.oaktreecapital.com)
147 points | 223 commentspage 2
tennex 1 day ago|
Whether it's a bubble depends on pricing. Is it worth the price, is it worth the future price, and by how much?

In the case of AI coding, yes: AI does exceptionally well at search (something we have known for quite some time, and have a variety of ML solutions for).

Large codebases have search and understanding as top problems. Your ability to make horizontal changes degrades as teams scale. Most stability, performance, quality, etc., changes are are horizontal.

Ironically, I think it's possible that AI's effectiveness at broad search give software engineers additional effectiveness, by being their eyes. Yes, I still review every claude code PR I submit, and yes, I typically take longer to create a claude code PR than a manual one. But I can be more satisfied that the parallel async search agents and massive grep commands are searching more locations, more quickly, and more thoroughly than I would.

Yes, it probably is a bubble (overvalued). No, that doesn't mean it's going to go away. The market is simply overcorrecting as it determines how to price it. Which--net net, is a positive effect, as it encourages economic growth within a developing sector.

Bubble is also not the most important concern--it's rather a concern that the bubble is in the one industry that's not in the red. More important to worry about are other economic conditions outside of AI and tech, which are causing general instability and uncertainty rather than investor appetite. Market recalibrating on a developing industry is fine, as long as it's not your only export.

andxor 1 day ago||
As usual I don't take financial advice from Hacker News comments and do well.
_trampeltier 1 day ago||
Why is so much invested in AI but not in fusion power?
chemotaxis 1 day ago||
Probably because AI appears to work, more or less, and now it's just a race to make it better and to monetize it.

Before ChatGPT, I'd guess that the amounts of money poured in both of these things were about the same.

halfcat 1 day ago||
> Probably because AI appears to work, more or less

All nondeterministic AI is a demo. They only vary in the duration until you realize it’s a demo.

AI makes a hell of a demo. And management eats up slick demos. And some demos are so good it takes months before you find out how that particular demo gets stuck and can’t really do the enterprise thing it claimed to do reliably.

But also some demos are useful.

asdff 1 day ago|||
Imagine getting the opportunity to sell microsoft office to the entire world again how much money is on the table. It doesn't even matter if it works. If you can get the mindless corporate buyers to purchase it along with all the other useless redundant junk they also purchase you are making money hand over fist.

Fusion power on the other hand has to work as it doesn't make money until it does. You can't sell futures to people on a fusion technology today that you haven't yet built.

marcosdumay 1 day ago|||
There is probably not any large market for fusion power as we conceive of it today.

You will get a different result if you revolutionize some related area (like making an extremely capably superconductor), or if you open up some market that can't use the cheapest alternatives (like deep space asteroid mining). But neither of those options can go together with "oh, and we will achieve energy positive fusion" in a startup business plan.

kakapo5672 1 day ago|||
Bad comparison.

Investment in fusion is huge and rising. ITER's total cost alone will be around $20b. And then there's Commonwealth Fusion, Helion, TAE and about a dozen others. Tens of billions are going into those efforts too.

mandevil 1 day ago|||
There are a lot of areas that could use more investment but aren't getting it. The way this works is complicated. The best explanation comes from really understanding Moore's Law. The main effect of the law was really about investment, about securing investment into semiconductor fabs rather than anywhere else.

See, every fab costs double what the previous generation did (current ones run roughly 20 gigadollars per factory). And you need to build a new fab every couple of years. But, if you can keep your order book full, you can make a profit on that fab- you can get good ROI on the investment and pay the money people back nicely. But you need to go to the markets to raise money for that next generation fab because it costs twice what your previous generation did and you didn't get that much free cash from your previous generation. And the money men wouldn't want to give it to you, of course. But thanks to Moore's Law you can pitch it as inevitable, if you don't borrow the money to build the new fab, then your competitors will. And so they would give you the money for the new fab because it says right on this paper that in another two years the transistors will double.

Right now, that "it's inevitable, our competitors will get there if we don't" argument works on VCs if you are pitching LLM's or LLM based things. And it doesn't work as well if you are pitching battery technology, fusion power, or other areas. And that's why the investments are going to AI.

empath75 1 day ago|||
Because wind, solar and battery tech have given us most of the benefits of fusion power and it actually works today.
biophysboy 1 day ago||
Because the money is in software.
waterTanuki 1 day ago||
The amount of people who think because something has a few useful edge cases being incompatible with a bubble is staggeringly high. Dot com was a bubble, and yet we still use the internet widely today. Real-estate was a bubble, and people still need a place to live and work.

Just because YOU find the technology helpful, useful, or even beneficial for some use cases does NOT mean it has been overvalued. This has been the case for every single bubble, including the Dutch Tulip mania.

mxschumacher 1 day ago||
Originally submitted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46212259
tom_m 1 day ago||
Yes. It is a bubble. Also a useful tool...but 100% a bubble. There's going to unfortunately be a bunch of folks caught by it.
jimlawruk 1 day ago||
If you look at the chart at the bottom comparing Dec 99 to today....

> during the internet bubble of 1998-2000, the p/e ratios were much higher

That is true, the current players are more profitable, but the weight in SPX percentages looks to be much higher today.

zahlman 1 day ago||
It seems to me that it would be a lot easier for that market concentration to revert to the historical mean without catastrophe, than for P/E ratios to revert to the historical mean without catastrophe.

(I think a reasonable argument can be made that P/E ratios today should be higher than the historical mean, or rather that they should have trended up over time, based on fundamental changes in how companies compensate their shareholders.)

cal_dent 1 day ago||
i also wonder about p/e ratio comparisons over time because our world view of what long term economic growth is going forward is less now that it was then. That is always subtly implicit when we think about p/e ratio. So what's to say a 30x p/3 isnt equivalent to a 40x then
Ekaros 1 day ago||
Also it depends on where you start. Going from million to billion in price is currently pretty possible. Billion to trillion would be rare, but still could happen. Now from trillion to quadrillion. How much currency there is again...
bagacrap 4 hours ago||
A trillion dollar valuation doesn't imply there's actually a trillion dollars there. It's just the last price the stock sold for, times the shares in existence.

If Elon tried to sell every share of Tesla tomorrow, he would get a lot less than the face value of all his shares.

So in other words, there doesn't need to be that much currency, just that much hype.

bossyTeacher 1 day ago||
The problem is that people conflate the current wave of transformer based ANNs with AI (as a whole). AI certainly has the potential to disrupt employment of humans. Transformers as they exist today not so much.

AI's potential isn't defined by the potential of the current crop of transformers. However, many people seem to think otherwise and this will be incredibly damaging for AI as a whole once transformer tech investment all but dries out.

MarkusQ 1 day ago||
It's a recurring phenomena, c.f. "AI winter" and the cycle before and after.

We're too easily fooled by our mistaken models of the problem, it's difficulty, and what constitutes progress, so are perpetually fooled by the latest, greatest "ladder to the moon" effort.

red75prime 1 day ago||
So, you bet on a) transformers can't be a load-bearing part of AI, and b) whatever replaces them will not be able to utilize TPUs. Do you have any reasons for those assumptions?

Looking at your history it's something like "I tried them and they hallucinate" and, possibly, you've read an article that talks about inevitability of hallucinations. Correct? What's your reason for thinking that hallucination rate can't be lowered to or below the human rate ("Damn! What I was thinking about?").

catigula 1 day ago||
>I find the resulting outlook for employment terrifying. I am enormously concerned about what will happen to the people whose jobs AI renders unnecessary, or who can’t find jobs because of it. The optimists argue that “new jobs have always materialized after past technological advances.” I hope that’ll hold true in the case of AI, but hope isn’t much to hang one’s hat on, and I have trouble figuring out where those jobs will come from. Of course, I’m not much of a futurist or a financial optimist, and that’s why it’s a good thing I shifted from equities to bonds in 1978.

It's no wonder that the "AI optimists", unless very tendentious, try to focus more on "not needing to work because you'll get free stuff" rather than "you'll be able to exchange your labor for goods".

asdff 1 day ago||
New jobs might materialize but who knows if they will be good jobs. Think of all the towns around the US set up around resource extraction or manufacturing that went away, and in its wake you have jobs like selling geekbars in the 7/11 to the other minimum wage workers and people scrapping along on the dole in the area. People living on the poverty line today while their parents bought a home and two cars on a single income from the steel mill a generation or two previous. Most of the population up and left.

How about when offices went digital? All the file runners, calculators, switchboard operators, secretaries, transcribers, etc. Where are they now? Probably not working good jobs in IT. Maybe you will find them bagging groceries past retirement age today.

puchatek 1 day ago||
And i am so buying the vision of Elon using AI to give me free stuff. He just gives off this enormous altruistic energy.
threethirtytwo 1 day ago|
Ai is currently a bubble. But that is just a short term phenomenon. Ultimately what AI currently is and what the trend-line indicates what AI will become will change the economy in ways that will dwarf the current bubble.

But this is only if the trend-line keeps going, which is a likely possibility given the last couple of years.

I think people are making the mistake that AI is a bubble and therefore AI is completely bullshit. Remember: The internet was a bubble. It ended up changing world.

jbstack 1 day ago||
Yes, a bubble just means that it's over-valued and that at some point there will be a significant correction in stock values. It doesn't mean that the thing is inherently worthless.
sosborn 1 day ago||
A great example is the DotCom bubble. Wiped out a lot of capital but it really did transform the world.
jonwinstanley 1 day ago|||
But also, a lot of the dot com companies that people invested in in 1999 went bust, meaning those specific investments went to zero even if the web as a whole was a huge success financially.
RyanOD 1 day ago||
Sure...that's why it's important to diversify investments. For every Pets.com, hopefully you have a Google in your portfolio.

Or, you skip all that and just put it all in an S&P 500 fund.

lizknope 1 day ago|||
I started working in 1997 and lived through the dot com bubble and collapse. My advice to people is to diversify away from your company stock. I knew a lot of people at Cisco that had stock options at $80 and it dropped to under $20.

Because of the way the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) worked at the time they bought the stock, did not sell, but owed taxes on the gain on the day of purchase. They had tax bills of over $1 million but even if they sold it all they couldn't pay the bill. This dragged on for years.

Esophagus4 1 day ago||
I heard of stories like that!

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-apr-13-mn-50476...

That lesson is part of why I dump my company's shares the first chance I get.

lizknope 19 hours ago||
The person in the story is literally the person at Cisco I was talking about. I worked on 2 projects with him. Great engineer.
nelgaard 1 day ago|||
But you would not have had Google in you portfolio.

The bubble burst in 2000-2001, Google IPO was in 2004.

The S&P500 also did not do very well at the time.

That is the problem with bubbles.

bigstrat2003 1 day ago|||
Yeah, but unlike LLMs the Internet was an actual useful technology.
MangoCoffee 1 day ago||
Google said the dotcom bubble is roughly from 1995 to 2001. That's about 6 years. ChatGPT was released in 2022. Claude AI was released in 2023. DeepSeek was released in 2023.

Let's just say the AI bubble started in 2023. We still have about 3 years, more or less, until the AI bubble pops.

I do believe we are in the build out phase of the AI bubble, much like the dotcom bubble, where Cisco routers, Sun Microsystems servers... etc. sold like hotcakes to build up the foundation of the dotcom bubble

rvz 1 day ago||
> Let's just say the AI bubble started in 2023. We still have about 3 years, more or less, until the AI bubble pops.

Minimum 3 years and at a hard maximum of 6 years from now.

We'll see lots of so called AI companies fold and there will be a select few winners that stay on.

So I'd give my crash timelines at around 2029 to 2031 for a significant correction turned crash.

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