Posted by fouronnes3 12/11/2025
I've been obsessed with the idea of making a spreadsheet where you can update both inputs and outputs, instead of regular spreadsheets where you can only update inputs.
Please let me know what you think! Especially if you find bugs or good example use cases.
What's the point of calculating backwards non-invertible operations such as addition? Isn't the result just arbitrary?
You are right that there is some arbitrariness involved when picking a solution, however it's a bit more subtle than that.
Let's say our problem has N free variables.
Step 1 is finding the subset of R^N that is the solution to the root finding problem. If this subset is a point, we are done (return that point). Note that if there is no solution at all bidicalc should correctly report it.
Step 2 is if the solution subset is not a point. Then there is multiple (maybe even an infinity of) solutions, and picking one is indeed arbitrary.
> Even a normal spreadsheet is fairly complex beast. But the novel thing about bidicalc is the backwards solver. Mathematically, updating a spreadsheet "backward" is a (potentially underdetermined) root finding problem, because we are trying to find a vector of unknowns such that , where F is the function computed by the cells formulas, and G is the objective value entered in the cell. Note that F is not necessarily a single formula, but the result of composing an upstream graph of cells into a single function.
> The actual root-finding solver is a custom algorithm that I made. It a general purpose algorithm that will find one root of any continuous-almost-everywhere function for which a complete syntactic expression is known. It uses a mix of continuous constraint propagation on interval union arithmetic , directional Newton's method and dichotomic search. It is of course limited by floating point precision and available computation time.
But that really doesn't answer your question. I see no reason why the solver wouldn't decide every time it had a two-variable summation that ADD(X+Y) doesn't reverse to X=-90 and Y=100.
Commercial products are run by product managers: they do whatever the business needs that day, and if it doesn't work for most inputs, "that's fine, our users will only ever need addition". Fun open source projects, run by the same programmer who does the implementation, obsess over finding the generic solution to inverting a function and end up with a version that isn't useful for anyone's specific case.
The user hints principle is preferred fixed so they can see what rate is needed for a givem amount of interest.
Hints could have a precedence order (then prefer to fix earlier terms on an operation on a tie breaker.)
I'd love to see a version where cells are "torn off" and named as they were in Lotus Improv and one had a "formula pane" where one could see all the formulae for a spreadsheet.
Would it be possible to create this in Python so that it could be a part of pyspread?
I told Gemini that spreadsheets were actually not doing that and that I had ways to implement that behavior without the complexity.
Just writing that to show the rabbit hole people are going to fall into if they let their llms go brrr. ;D
In any case, the problem is interesting. The point was to include bi-directionality inside a graph of computations so that we didn't get bogged down by cycles. The benefit being that it would handle float precision issues.
My more manual solution expect that floats precision issues are handled explicitly. I think that this level of explicitness is needed anyway for proper floating point error mitigation.
Excerpt from the initial convo with gemini: Thinking with 3 Pro December 11, 2025 at 09:59 PM
2. Propagators (Constraint Networks)The Problem: Your valueref binder and watch logic handle one-way data flow well. But complex forms (e.g., "Start Date must be before End Date," or "Fahrenheit <-> Celsius") require messy, cyclic event handlers to keep everything in sync.The Academic Concept: Propagators (Alexey Radul / Gerald Sussman, MIT).Instead of functions ($A \rightarrow B$), you define Constraints. A network of constraints seeks a consistent value for all connected nodes. It is "multi-directional" by design.
I see my message above being downvoted, I don't even know why ;D
In the end Gemini did agree that it was not necessary to introduce this level of complexity for my use case.
To be fair, Victor goes further because he adds a solver on top. In the research of a solution that might make sense. The issue in general is that not everything has a reverse operation so, in a sense, it is but an approximation.
A = B + C
Where A, B, C are the lengths of 3 parallel lines. Within the sketcher you can drag the length of any one of those lines and the other two will adjust to keep the constraints.
Makes me imagine plotting a inverted pendulum and other real time systems. Could a cell variable be set to Time?