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Posted by fzeindl 12/12/2025

Koralm Railway(infrastruktur.oebb.at)
317 points | 197 commentspage 3
alberto_ol 12/12/2025||
English is not my language, is the headline grammatically correct?
showerst 12/12/2025||
It's a little awkward, but what it's trying to communicate doesn't really work well in one sentence.

As a native US English speaker, I would probably write something like "Austria opens the world's sixth longest railway tunnel: 27 year long project arrives on schedule and under budget."

That's a long headline, though.

groestl 12/12/2025||
Not by a long shot.
sandworm101 12/12/2025||
Lol. And in north american train news, canada's newest rail line in only 10km long, was way over budget, years late, and is slower than jogging.

>> A CBC Toronto reporter rode the entire 10.3-kilometre line from east to west Monday morning, finding it took roughly 55 minutes to complete. As a reference point, over 400 runners ran this year's Toronto Marathon 10-kilometre event in under 55 minutes

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/finch-west-lrt-first-...

jasona123 12/12/2025|
And yet the Eglinton Crosstown still isn't open... I'm so close to making a site that just lists every project that's started and finished in the entire time that thing has been "under construction".
Ensorceled 12/12/2025||
A friend of mine works beside one of the Eglinton line sites and called me a few years ago to tell me they were taking down the hoardings... because the hoardings had rotted and needed new plywood and studs.
franciscop 12/12/2025||
This headline is a bit odd and doesn't represent the original title nor article content. What does "within budget" mean here? That it costed what the original budget set out to cost? Couldn't find anything related to the budget within the article.
fzeindl 12/12/2025||
It is mostly within budget, estimated in 2005 were 5.5 billion €, total cost as of today are 5.9 billion €, the difference being largely attributed to the pandemic and later addition of sections.
franciscop 12/12/2025|||
Sure, I'm just pointing out that this article doesn't follow the HN Guidelines, so I was confused at not seeing any mention of the budget within the article:

> "Please don't do things to make titles stand out, like using uppercase or exclamation points, or saying how great an article is. It's implicit in submitting something that you think it's important."

> "Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize"

fzeindl 12/12/2025||
Agreed, it was just important to me to point it out, since staying within such a massive budget on such a long timeline is a rare achievement.
bigbinary 12/12/2025|||
Considering the original title is just the name of the railway, and I do not think “within budget” is editorializing, I think the commenter is being overly pedantic
franciscop 12/12/2025|||
I opened the article expecting to see news about the budget and how they stayed within it, since that SEEMS like the biggest surprising news in a project like this. How is that overly pedantic?
tchalla 12/12/2025||
I understand your expectation. That said, I think it's ok to add detail in commentary when the article doesn't mention it explicitly. So continuing to go upon the point that the article didn't mention the budget makes you seem as pedantic.

There are non-English articles on the budget too.

https://orf.at/stories/3414173/

b112 12/12/2025|||
Their point was completely valid. HN policies are what help keep this place sane.
paulgerhardt 12/12/2025|||
I was curious about the forecasting success story here too. The German LOK article is better in this regard: https://www.lok-report.de/news/europa/item/62410-oesterreich...
jfoster 12/12/2025|||
You're using a strange definition of "within". It's 7% over.
fzeindl 12/12/2025|||
In a world where large infrastructure projects regularly exceed their budget by 100-1000%, 7% is huge.

It is important to show people that that is possible in government projects.

If you find a more concise way of saying „with unusually small overrun of it‘s budget“ tell me.

Also there were sections added after the initial estimate.

tomhow 12/12/2025|||
Does the site mention the budget and completion time/cost at all? I can't find it from a quick browse/search of the site. It's taking editorializing to a whole new level to add details that are not in the linked article or site at all.

The right thing to do in this case is find the best source for this information (about the budget, schedule and completion time/cost) and make that the URL of the submission. Please email us the best links you know of about this (hn@ycombinator.com) and we'll consider updating the URL.

fzeindl 12/12/2025||
The site doesn‘t mention it, I got that information from various german announcements. I fear there probably won‘t be an English announcement regarding the budget, though there will be many regarding the tunnel.
pestatije 12/12/2025||||
"almost" is the word
Y_Y 12/12/2025|||
"only slightly over budget"
tremon 12/12/2025|||
€5.5 billion in 2005 is €8 billion in 2025, so it can be either over or under budget depending on how you amortize the costs over the construction period.
oniony 12/12/2025||||
To contrast, HS2 here in the UK has cost £40 billion (€45 billion) to date with a further £25 billion (€28 billion) allocated, for a largely superterranean route of 230km.
stephen_g 12/12/2025|||
As badly as HS2 has been run, apart from the tunnel length (where HS2 has not too much more than this project) these projects are night and day different. Not just that HS2 Phase 1a/1b is almost double the length and significantly higher design speed (360km/h vs 250km/h), but they are in a different league in terms of civil engineering from the info I can see - this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts, and some of those are massive (including the longest railway viaduct in the UK).
iso1631 12/12/2025|||
HS2 also includes major stations - a 6 platform one almost entirely underground in west london, a multi-platform extension in central london, a new station in central birmingham, a new 4 platform outside of Birmingham
cjrp 12/12/2025|||
> this seems to have less than 80 structures (overpasses, bridges, underpasses etc.) whereas HS2 has 175 bridges and 52 viaducts.

Doesn't tunnel beat any of those structures in terms of cost/complexity?

georgefrowny 12/12/2025|||
Not necessarily because no one lives underground and there are probably no existing things like property, gas lines, electricity lines, sewers, pipelines, roads, etc to avoid or reroute. And very little in the way of habitat.

The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck.

In terms of legal complexity, it's fantastically easier than picking your way across and near thousands of individual plots of very expensive land owned by people with solicitors salivating at the potential fees, expensive private infrastructure, nature reserves and so on.

deaux 12/12/2025|||
> The longest road tunnel in the world only cost about 100 million in the 90s for 25km so tunneling isn't always a gigantic Big Dig style clusterfuck.

Big Dig style clusterfuck is because the simplicity and cheapness you're talking about only apply to tunnels through mountains, less so to those underwater and definitely not to tunnels under big cities i.e. land that people live on, which comes with all the complexity.

georgefrowny 12/12/2025||
Yes, and the Austrian route is mostly in that category under the Koralpe Massif rather then the very politically awkward Home Counties (NIMBY Central, and very rich NIMBYs at that).

Hence why tunneling does not necessarily mean a stunningly expensive project. We just hear about the HS2s and Big Digs because they reverberate for decades with all the legal battles.

MangoToupe 12/12/2025|||
> Big Dig style clusterfuck.

The big dig is probably the last major success of American infrastructure. Referring to it as a clusterfuck is representative of why we'll never get another one.

georgefrowny 12/12/2025|||
Even if the end result ends up being a net positive, even by a wide margin, I think any project that goes over budget by 100% and lands 10 years late does reasonably merit the clusterfuck tag.

The Space Shuttle was one too and that was a marvel. A deathtrap politically-motivated pork-barrel hot-mess of a project, but also a shining black-and-white marvel of a glorious flying space Aga.

MangoToupe 12/12/2025||
> The Space Shuttle was one too and that was a marvel. A deathtrap politically-motivated pork-barrel hot-mess of a project, but also a shining black-and-white marvel of a glorious flying space Aga.

https://archive.org/details/gil-scott-heron-whitey-on-the-mo...

The big dig directly benefits people producing value many, many, many times what the investment cost. Who gives a shit about the initial investment? Voters have proven time and time again that it's easier to lie to them than to get them to earnestly think.

bluGill 12/12/2025|||
IT is also correct - it costs way too much for what we got. It will be nice for future generations that don't have to pay for it, but it doesn't look like a good investment. Now if the costs were more reasonable it could be a great investment.
MangoToupe 12/12/2025||
I don't see how you're justifying this. Yes the costs overran, but the investment would have been worth it at 4x the end cost. It made boston one of the nicest cities in the country, even if it still sucks ass to drive in.
bluGill 12/12/2025||
The costs overran by a lot. Enough that my tiny city in the middle of nowhere would not benefit even though if the costs has been more reaonable we could get something. It might be worth it for Boston - I don't live there, but for a large number of places it makes such a large project something we will never do. The investment at a reasonable price would be wroth for more because it allows similar investments elsewhere and so the total pay off would be much higher.
MangoToupe 12/12/2025||
I live way out in the bumfuck of nowhere, way west of western mass. It's still obvious the big dig was worth it at 4x the cost it actually ran. Yes, even though my taxpayer dollars haven't returned to me in any way I can straightforwardly estimate or point to.

Of course, the big dig is no excuse to not invest outside of the Boston metro area. But that's a completely different argument than saying the investment wasn't worth it.

> The investment at a reasonable price would be wroth for more because it allows similar investments elsewhere and so the total pay off would be much higher.

This is an insane way to reason about investments. No wonder this country is such a shithole. Obviously we should do similar big-dig style investments outside of Boston. Obviously investments like the big dig prompt investments nearby. But individualistic assholes like you force us all to commit suicide instead because you can't use your fucking brain to connect why investment now means we all eat good later.

m4rtink 12/12/2025|||
HS2 does not go through the complex geology of the Alps.
zzbn00 12/12/2025||||
Would be interesting to read how the Austrian project was contracted out? It seems in the UK the big construction companies have got very good in extracting a lot of money from customers, wonder if things were different in Austria with this project.
aa-jv 12/12/2025||
Austria tends to have pretty rigorous bean-counters overseeing budgets like this, especially when it comes to public-good services such as railway.

It is one of the things that makes living here so .. infuriating at times .. but also .. rewarding.

zzbn00 12/12/2025||
Interesting. In UK, I think the big construction companies would hire these bean-counters then use them to out-manoeuvre the ones that are hired to replace them. Quickly nobody knows what a reasonable price is, and the govmnt has to go with choice of one out of two overpriced bids. (I have no direct experience, this is just what it looks like from an observers perspective)
aa-jv 12/15/2025||
Chalk it up to the differences between socialist-adjacent and capitalist-adjacent societies, I guess ...
neerajk 12/12/2025||||
In contrast, the 2nd Ave Subway extension here in NY cost $4.5 billion for 2.9 km
monster_truck 12/12/2025|||
7x longer for 11x the cost seems pretty good all things considered.

Always thought it seemed like a waste to not also dig out a bunch of storage while we're down there. I'm sure there are good reasons we don't

oniony 12/12/2025|||
It's not seven times longer. The Austrian line is 130km with 50km of tunnels.

            Length  Tunnels  Bridges   Stations   Cost
    Koralm  130km   ~50km    100       12         €6b
       HS2  230km   ~75km    100+      4          €74b+
Obviously this does not give any indication of the complexity of each project. Tunnelling and building railway through a metropolis I would imagine is quite challenging.
rsynnott 12/12/2025|||
As far as I can see, the 6bn is _just_ for the big 30km tunnel? Presumably the rest of it cost more.
shevy-java 12/12/2025||||
Still seems insanely more expensive in the UK. I understand they have a higher cost to carry because their project is indeed more complex, but that's like a almost 13x more expensive variant, while not even being two times the length.
monster_truck 12/12/2025||||
HS2 is five sets of twin bore tunnels, so there is more "tunnel per tunnel"
orthoxerox 12/12/2025|||
Sounds like you might want to build the whole HS2 underground to save money.
IshKebab 12/12/2025|||
Yeah because it would be extremely expensive and we don't need it.
chasd00 12/12/2025||||
> It is mostly within budget, estimated in 2005 were 5.5 billion €, total cost as of today are 5.9 billion €

That’s incredible! The project managers and contractors should collaborate on a book about how they did it. Heh staying on budget should be the norm and not the exception but irl a 20 year large infra project coming in that close is something to celebrate and learn from.

gbil 12/12/2025||||
Is inflation included? Otherwise 5,5 billion in 2005 is >8billion in 2025.
flawn 12/12/2025||
Probably, else the sum wouldn't have worked out the way it did, if we are talking about 5.9€ million as of today.
hopelite 12/12/2025|||
Started in 1998, apparently without a budget, which came 7 years later, and was completed within…mostly…budget, but not really since it was 7% over budget.

Which also begs the question; why is a railway project page on HN at all, regardless of anything else?

hopelite 12/13/2025||
Is anyone going to explain what justifies the down votes or is this just Reddit tier mobbing now?
RicoElectrico 12/12/2025|||
It was indeed built within 27 years:

https://infrastruktur.oebb.at/en/projects-for-austria/railwa...

_jzlw 12/15/2025||
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upvotenow 12/12/2025||
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ITniggah 12/12/2025||
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tasuki 12/12/2025|
> Crossing the Koralpe massif more quickly and with more comfort. That’s what the future of train travel from Graz to Klagenfurt looks like. With the Koralm Railway, you will arrive at your destination even quicker. The fastest connection will shrink from three hours to just 45 minutes.

There aren't any big mountains between Graz and Klagenfurt. It's an hour on the Autobahn. That it took three hours by train... well, they just had shitty railroad? Best of luck, Southern neighbors!

syberspace 12/12/2025||
There is, the Koralpe massif. Previously to get to Klagenfurt from Graz you first had to go north through a somewhat tight valley for about 50km before the train would turn to the south-west towards Klagenfurt, again tough alpine valleys, and with a lot of stops inbetween. The new route goes south/south-west immediatley, is very straight compared to the old route, and has at most 3 stops.
tasuki 12/12/2025||
> [...] and with a lot of stops inbetween. The new route [...] has at most 3 stops.

I think this explains a lot. Adding a couple of stops adds a lot of time to the total!

febusravenga 12/12/2025||
> they just had shitty railroad

The terrain is just hard railroad had do huge detour on this section

Look at map: https://mapy.com/en/turisticka?x=15.0703419&y=46.7076432&z=1...

Passes in those mountains are only ~1200m above valley level (~1650 abs). Yeah, perfectly ok to run railroad there.

Your autobahn climbs 600m on this section (to 1050m absolute) - it's way to high for railway to be effective.