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Posted by tortilla 6 days ago

Texas is suing all of the big TV makers for spying on what you watch(www.theverge.com)
1257 points | 641 commentspage 2
nottorp 4 days ago|
I skimmed through what the TX governor/attorney general/whatever it's called said, and I don't think he even understands "privacy". All he's bothered about is that the data is going to China instead of American companies.
dawnerd 4 days ago||
Of course they don’t understand privacy, they’re the same ones also trying to verify gender to use a restroom.

I appreciate them caring about what you watch being recorded but it’s pretty clear too they only care because the tv manufacturers are not “American Companies”. Walmart is getting special treatment and will be allowed to operate

pnt12 4 days ago|||
But they named companies that are not Chinese eg Samsung. I think the claims are well spirited and the China argument is an aggravating factor for many, so no harm in having it. Will likely lead to higher interest in the case, so that's good.
nottorp 4 days ago||
Samsung is still Korean, which means the money made off your data are not going to an all american company :)

Also, if i remember what I read well, he may not be aware that Samsung is not Chinese.

delis-thumbs-7e 4 days ago|||
What American TV manufacturers is there? LG is from Korea as well, Sony is originally from Japan and there two smaller (I assume, since Koreans dominate display market) Chinese manufacturers. But together those five are most of the units manufactured globally, so makes sense to sue them to have the biggest impact.
cestith 4 days ago|||
Saying especially one subgroup does not negate other subgroups being included in a larger group.
not_so_34 4 days ago||
“Companies, especially those connected to the Chinese Communist Party, have no business illegally recording Americans’ devices inside their own homes,” Paxton said. “This conduct is invasive, deceptive, and unlawful. The fundamental right to privacy will be protected in Texas because owning a television does not mean surrendering your personal information to Big Tech or foreign adversaries.”
c420 6 days ago||
"The TVs “are effectively Chinese-sponsored surveillance devices, recording the viewing habits of Texans at every turn without their knowledge or consent,” the lawsuits said."

This explains why Vizio, who is owned by Walmart, was not sued.

wmf 4 days ago||
Sony, Samsung, and LG are not Chinese companies but they are being sued. It's more likely that Vizio is not included because they already got hit by the FTC (but not hard enough to disable ACR).
limagnolia 4 days ago|||
From what I understood, ACR on Vizio TVs was disabled, but is available as an opt-in "feature". I don't know what sort of person would opt-in...
mindslight 4 days ago|||
[flagged]
buellerbueller 4 days ago||
It's also excellent pro-privacy advocacy. I am happy to have a big tent for this issue.
mindslight 4 days ago||
No, that's the problem - it's not good advocacy. The destructionist movement is more appropriately seen as arbitraging away existing concern about the issues they claim to take up. Their politicians' main use for reformist political causes are as cudgels for threatening businesses with, after which they back off once their own pockets get lined. As a libertarian who cares about many of the causes of individual freedom they dishonestly champion, I'm well acquainted with their abuse of ideals.
buellerbueller 4 days ago||
>As a libertarian

Libertarian PD, by Tom O'Donnell [1]

I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”

“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”

“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”

The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”

“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”

I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.

“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.

“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.

“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”

It didn’t seem like they did.

“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”

Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.

I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.

“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.

Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.

“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.

I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”

He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.

“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

“Because I was afraid.”

“Afraid?”

“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”

I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.

“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”

He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me.

[1] https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...

mindslight 4 days ago||
So mid.

The lack of a capital L is because I'm not whole hog on the "Libertarian" party's kool-aid. In fact, I often argue against much of it as it runs contrary to individual liberty.

On this topic specifically, privacy is an integral part of individual liberty. So claiming to care about privacy, only to simplistically dunk on the more general subject is just odd.

Furthermore, elsewhere in this thread you've espoused the idea of examining arguments on their merits and not who is making them. So it's directly hypocritical to be dismissing my argument based on a quick self-description that I only threw out to mitigate the dynamic of destructionist/fascist cheerleaders writing off all dissent like it's only coming from progressive democrats with blue hair.

buellerbueller 4 days ago||
>So mid.

Worst take ever. So mid as to be published in a major publication.

mindslight 4 days ago||
Major publications are pretty fucking mid...

Also do you have anything to say about my other points? Your other comments were seemingly substantive, but now you're just being combative for combativeness's sake.

buellerbueller 4 days ago||
>The destructionist movement is more appropriately seen as arbitraging away existing concern about the issues they claim to take up. Their politicians' main use for reformist political causes are as cudgels for threatening businesses with, after which they back off once their own pockets get lined. As a libertarian who cares about many of the causes of individual freedom they dishonestly champion, I'm well acquainted with their abuse of ideals.

You are making points about their "movement" and generalities about what those politicians do. I don't care about their movement or their general behavior, because I will take this win for privacy to the extent that it is successful at getting devices like this more regulated or (unlikely) eliminated.

Do you think that Trump's coalition is internally values-consistent? I sure don't; but they effectively made abortion illegal in a lot of places, and it seemed to make them happy like it had been a long term goal of theirs or something.

mindslight 4 days ago||
The thing is that I do not see this ending up as a win for privacy. At best it's political grandstanding that will end up in a quid-pro-quo settlement and get dropped by the following news cycle. But there are worse possibilities like it's used as a cudgel to force the manufacturers to add "age verification" (eg sign into an account on the TV to be able to use it at all), or other creeping digital authoritarian dynamic which will then be sold as a "win".

A fundamental difficulty is that there is very little legal basis for a right to privacy. An AG is incapable of changing that, especially after commercial surveillance practices have been around for decades (precluding common-law approaches to novel behavior). Legislatures are where we need constructive action on this topic.

Which is why the generally performative behavior of the destructionists on the vast majority of causes they claim to champion is highly relevant. I'd say the few "successful goals" of the destructionist movement (criminalizing abortion, jackboots attacking minorities, appointing destructionist judges) are exceptions that prove the rule on how generally non-constructive their pushes are.

wkat4242 6 days ago|||
So.. if it was American companies doing the spying it would be a different story?
jvanderbot 4 days ago|||
Not according to the law. Speeches are not the law.
ToucanLoucan 4 days ago||||
Yeah pretty much. No regulators are batting an eye at the industrial data gathering schemes of Meta, Google, Amazon, etc. and they never have. And the only major social network under real legal scrutiny is TikTok.

The American Government wants to have the cake and eat it too, as per usual. They want to leave the massive column of the economy that is surveillance capitalism intact and operating, and making them money, and they want to make sure those scary communists can't do the same. Unfortunately there isn't really a way to take down one without taking down the other, unless you legally enshrine that only American corporations have a right to spy on Americans. And (at time of comment anyway) they seem to not want to openly say the reason is just naked nationalism/racism.

stevenjgarner 4 days ago|||
Doesn't the $2 million fine paid by Walmart just make this a cost of doing business? Doesn't seem enough to be a deterrent.
limagnolia 4 days ago||
That fine was levied years before Walmart acquired Vizio.
smileybarry 6 days ago|||
And of course: casual reminder that Vizio does extensive ACR and ad targeting, and even bought a company doing it to facilitate that:

> In August 2015, Vizio acquired Cognitive Media Networks, Inc, a provider of automatic content recognition (ACR). Cognitive Media Networks was subsequently renamed Inscape Data. Inscape functioned as an independent entity until the end of 2020, when it was combined with Vizio Ads and SmartCast; the three divisions combining to operate as a single unit.[1]

But I'm sure Texans are fully aware and consented to this, right?

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizio

navaed01 4 days ago||
Fundamentally how is this any different from what Google or Meta or Comcast or AT&T do? Comcast knows everything that goes to the TV and sells that data. At&T sells your browsing data… Those are services you pay for monthly.

Sure the method is different but it’s the same goal. Company x learns your interests so It can monetize you by selling to advertisers

anon7000 4 days ago||
AT&T sounds like the same thing, Google sounds different because they theoretically claim to not sell your data, and instead sell ads, and Google can show you an ad you want to see because Google knows you so well. It doesn’t precisely sell you to advertisers in the same way.

Anyways, the whole thing sucks for consumer privacy and needs to be outlawed. The problem is that companies come up with unique, tricky ways of exploiting you, and people can never fully understand it without a lot of effort. Someone might be ok using Google and seeing contextual ads, but wouldn’t be ok if they knew Google was saving a screenshot of their browser every second and uploading and reselling it. The first can feel innocuous, the second feels evil.

jjulius 4 days ago|||
>Fundamentally how is this any different from what Google or Meta or Comcast or AT&T do?

It's all garbage all the way down.

criddell 4 days ago||
Why do you think it's different? At first glance it seems more or less the same thing to me.
frndsprotocol 4 days ago||
This is exactly why the current ad model is broken.

Users are tracked without real consent, advertisers still waste budgets, and everyone loses except the platforms collecting the data.

What’s interesting is that you can actually build effective ads without spying at all — by targeting intent signals instead of identities, and rewarding users transparently for engagement.

The tech is already there, but the incentives are still backwards.

mateo411 4 days ago|
This is called contextual advertising. It's becoming more popular as cookies are becoming less effective.
drnick1 4 days ago||
As long as the firmware is proprietary and cannot be inspected or modified, the only reliable way to avoid snooping by tech industry is not to connect any "smart" device to the Internet. Use the TV as a dumb monitor for a PC under your control (running Linux). If streaming service X will not run on Linux because DRM is not implemented or enforceable on a free device, do without it, or find alternative sources for the content (hint: Linux ISOs).
irl_zebra 4 days ago||
I've been using my pi-hole as my DNS and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS. Though I agree with the point and I shouldn't have to do this. This is just mitigation.
gruez 4 days ago|||
>and then also firewall blocking the TV from phoning out on port 53 in case the manufacturer has hardcoded DNS

I'm surprised they haven't switched to using DoH, which would prevent this from working.

hunter2_ 4 days ago||
It wouldn't even need to use any sort of standards-based DNS-like thing at all, if they control the server (on a stable IP address in the TV's firmware) and the client (the TV). It could be any data scheme (probably https for simplicity and blending in) along the lines of "give me all the other IP addresses I'll need, which aren't as stable as the one in my firmware."

Regardless, what is the benefit of putting the TV on the network but preventing it from doing DNS lookups anyway, even if you could be sure you succeed?

username135 4 days ago|||
At the very least, i would assume the majority of folks here were pi-holing devices on their network.
jvanderbot 4 days ago|||
You say "only", but if it is illegal, optional, and can be detected freely, it is very likely to not happen. For all the snark one can muster about DOJ, with those three things in place, it could get expensive very quickly to try to circumvent the law.
peterhadlaw 4 days ago||
What about cheap cellular modems built in?
drnick1 4 days ago|||
Is there any evidence those exist in TVs and other home appliances?

Modern cars have cellular modems, I unplugged mine, and would not hesitate to take apart a TV and physically rip off the modem.

anon7000 4 days ago|||
Absolutely yes. My prescribed CPAP came with 5G that uploads data for their app and for your physician to monitor your progress. You basically wouldn’t even know it had one, the plan must be managed by the company and automatically connects where ever you take it.

https://www.resmed.com/en-us/products/cpap/machines/airsense...

bluGill 4 days ago|||
Maybe not yet - but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap. It takes a couple years to design the cheap modems and then a few more years to get them in TVs, so they could well be coming in the near future yet - only time will tell. And the modem will also be your wifi so you can't really rip it off without losing other useful things.
gruez 4 days ago|||
>but 5g was built with the idea of making them cheap

For bandwidth, maybe. It's still going to add cost to the BOM. They'll have to recoup that somehow. Say a 5G modem costs $20 (random number). For it to actually make money, it'll need to be otherwise not connected to the internet, otherwise it can just use wifi instead. Out of 100 people, how many do you think won't connect it to the internet for privacy reasons? 1? 5? 10? Keep in mind, if they don't connect to the internet, they'll need to go out and get another device to watch netflix or whatever, so they're highly incentivized to. Say 10 out of 100 don't, and with this sneaky backdoor you now can sell ads to them. For that privilege, you paid $200 per disconnected TV, because for every disconnected TV with a 5G module, you need to have a 5G module in 9 other TVs that were already connected to the internet. How could you ever hope to recoup that expense?

bluGill 4 days ago||
assume they are aiming for $1 in large quantites. I don't know thier number but that is closer. And the cost will be low because they are bulk buying excess data. They can send this at 3am when everyone is asleep so cell companies can give a deep discount.

again the above is the plan, reality often changes.

gruez 4 days ago||
The above pricing is just for the modem itself, not the data plan. There's no way you can get a cellular modem for $1.
bluGill 4 days ago||
Adafruit sells ESP32 for less than $3. Any manufacturer can get quantity pricing to lower the cost. ESP32 doesn't have cell (AFAIK), but it wouldn't be technically that hard to add if they wanted. While $1 might be a bit on the low side, it is reasonable.
sfRattan 4 days ago|||
If you're planning on using the TV as a dumb display for another device, and are determined enough to physically remove a cellular modem, then the TV's own WiFi is not a useful thing either, even if integrated into the same chip.
drnick1 3 days ago|||
I don't need WiFi, all I need is the HDMI port.
bluGill 4 days ago||||
The CPU, wifi, and modem are all in one in this future (think ESP32). That is the direction this is likely to move. You can't remove one without the rest. I suppose you could put your own CPU in and write software, but otherwise you are stuck.
quesera 4 days ago||
I have not purchased a TV or car with these misfeatures, but I expect I will have to at some point in the future.

The most vulnerable part might be the antenna? Required by laws of physics to be a certain size and shape, and is not easily integrated into another more essential component?

If found, it can be removed entirely, or replaced with a dummy load to satisfy any presence detection circuits. But radiation can be minimized or eliminated.

Now obviously a device can choose not to function (or to be especially annoying in its UI) if it doesn't find a network. But people take cars (and TVs) to places with no WiFi or mobile coverage, and I don't know how the device manufacturers deal with that.

hunter2_ 4 days ago|||
If you want the TV to be on your network (for casting or streaming or whatever) and you also want to filter that traffic (allowing connections only to the services you want to use) then you need it to be on your own network (wifi, if there's no ethernet port) and not on someone else's network (cellular).
tehlike 4 days ago|||
Eventually these will use mesh networks to figure this out.
Tempest1981 4 days ago||
Nevada has a gaming dept that certifies the firmware in "slot" machines. It shouldn't be hard to do the same for TVs. Maybe include cars too... they like to phone home more than they should.
mschuster91 4 days ago|
One does not want to end up on the bad side of Nevada's Gaming Commission [1]. They can and will rip you apart.

[1] https://www.derstandard.de/story/3000000298248/hearing-in-la...

zephyreon 6 days ago||
Perhaps the one thing Ken Paxton and I agree on.
bsder 4 days ago||
Perhaps. But you also need to ask why Paxton is doing this as this case will vaporize as soon as that is accomplished. I would be much more optimistic if California were also signed onto this.

Paxton, however, doesn't give one iota of damn about individual freedom. So, this is either a misdirection, shakedown or revenge.

Unfortunately, we don't have Molly Ivins around anymore to tell us what is really going on here in the Texas Laboratory for Bad Government.

1659447091 4 days ago||
> So, this is either a misdirection, shakedown or revenge

This is about being in the news as much as possible. He is in a close 3 way race for the 2026 Republican spot for US Senate. The other two are current old-school conservative senator John Cornyn, and new comer MAGA Wesley Hunt (but not as MAGA as Paxton). Lots of in-fighting over funding, so Paxton is making sure to get in the news as much as possible.

Throughout the year he has been in the news for things that are useful like this and another suit against a utility company for causing a fire and others for typical maga things like lawsuit to stop harris county (Houston) funding legal services for immigrants facing deportation or immigrant-serving nonprofits or a "tip-line" for bathroom enforcement or lawsuits against doctors...it goes on and on and on. It's a page out of the Trump playblook, its like watching a trump clone. And thats the point.

otterley 4 days ago||
A broken clock is right twice a day!
buellerbueller 4 days ago|||
It is an important observation, and a reminder: evaluate positions on their merits, and not who is taking the position.
deathanatos 4 days ago|||
While I agree (and I agree with the upstream comments, too), there's often deeper reasons why we can short circuit fully evaluating an argument made on its merits: often the "merits", or lack thereof, are derived from the party's values and beliefs, and if we know those values to be corrupt, it's likely that subsequent arguments are going to be similarly corrupt.

There's only so much time in the day, only so much life to live. Could a blog post written by the worst person you know have a good point, even though it's titled something like "An argument in favor of kicking puppies" by Satan himself? I mean, true, I haven't read it, yet. There could be a sound, logical argument buried within.

This is also what "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" teaches, essentially. Trust is hard-won, and easily squandered.

"A lie is around the world before the truth has finished tying its shoes."

"Flood the Zone" is why some of us are so exhausted, though.

In these instances, the argument has to come from someone who is self-aware enough of the short-circuit to say "okay, look, I am going to address that elephant" — but mostly, that's not what happens.

Thankfully in this case, all we need get through is the title.

buellerbueller 4 days ago||
I don't care about people's values, unless I am evaluating them; that's their own business, and I am not the value police or thought police. Goodness knows there are people (hi, mom!) who are appalled by some of my values.

Roman Polanski and Woody Allen: terrible humans, but they have still made some of the best films that exist.

nathan_compton 4 days ago||
Everyone is the value police, though, at some level. It is either cowardice or willful ignorance to pretend you don't have judgements about how other people behave, some of which might compel you to act in some way.
otterley 4 days ago||
Of course we have opinions. That’s the “broken clock” part of “a broken clock is right twice a day.”
platevoltage 4 days ago|||
It's also important to read the fine print when the perceived good position is coming from a guy who tried to sue Tylenol over autism.

This guy does nothing good on purpose.

buellerbueller 4 days ago||
>It's also important to read the fine print

It's always important to read the fine print. That would be part of evaluating an argument on its merits. His lawsuit over Tylenol + autism is easily rejected on its merits. That means nothing about this issue.

TheAdamist 4 days ago|||
No.

.its an insane lawsuit, there are basically two outcomes crazy side effects from his lawsuit:

Tvs are banned. (Possibly can only texas permitted tv)

Or if he loses, which might be his donors goal of him litigating so terribly, all your data now belongs to the companies.

Theres no consumer friendly option here

ortusdux 4 days ago||
I just want a somewhat trustworthy organization to develop a "DUMB" certification. I would pay extra for a DUMB TV.

I like the suggested "Don't Upload My Bits" backronym.

6510 4 days ago||
I have this article growing in the back of my head that is currently mostly a rant about how impractical technology turned out by comparing the current state with the old days. It's hard as there are countless examples and I want to address only the most embarrassing ones. Dumb vs smart TV alone could fill a tomb worth of downgrades. Do you remember the variable resistor, the rotary knob that provided volume control? The ease of use, the granularity, the response time!

I currently have volume control on my TV, one on the OS on the computer that drives it and one on the application that makes the picture. That is only half the problem

https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupport/comments/pblj86/windows...

I own a 60 year old black and white tv. If the volume knob vanished people would know the problem is in my head.

Ajedi32 4 days ago|||
The thing is, I want smart features, I just don't want those smart features to be tied to the display. A separate box allows more consumer choice, which is generally a better experience. Easily flashable firmware would be an acceptable alternative for the same reason.
autoexec 4 days ago|||
I'd be happy with a setup box giving me the ability to add apps for streaming services or whatever, but I don't want that STB spying on my either. I feel like even if all TVs were dumb monitors we'd just be moving the real problem of insane levels of data collection and spying to another device. We need strong regulation with real teeth to prevent the spying at which point all of our devices should be protected.
globular-toast 4 days ago||||
Hi-fi and AV enthusiasts have known that "separates" is where it's at since the beginning. Unfortunately it's such a small segment compared to mass market junk "content" devices and it's only shrinking as more people are seduced by the convenience of the shit stuff.
dfxm12 4 days ago|||
A separate box allows more consumer choice, which is generally a better experience.

In the life of my last TV (10+ yrs), I've had to switch out that separate box three times. It would have sucked & been way more expensive to have had to replace the TV each time.

Firmware can be updated, sure, but there's the risk of some internal component failing. There's the risk of the services I want to use not being compatible. I'd also prefer to use an operating system I'm familiar with, because, well, I'm familiar with it, rather than some custom firmware from a TV company whose goal is to sell your data, not make a good user experience...

Of course, this ties back to the enshittification of the Internet. Every company is trying to be a data broker now though, because they see it as free passive income.

usefulcat 4 days ago||
Regarding the failure of internal components--there are some 'failure' modes which I had not even contemplated previously.

I have a TV that's only about 5-6 years old and has a built in Roku. It mostly works fine, but the built in hardware is simply not fast enough to play some streaming services, specifically some stuff on F1TV. And before anyone asks, it's not a bandwidth problem--I have gigabit fiber and the TV is using ethernet.

Anyway, between that, general UI sluggishness and the proliferation of ads in the Roku interface, I switched to an Apple TV and haven't looked back.

raw_anon_1111 4 days ago|||
Just don’t connect your TV to the internet.

Yes I know there is a theoretical capability for it to connect to unsecured WIFI. No one still has unsecured WIFI anymore

crote 4 days ago|||
We've already had TVs which only started serving ads after a few months of use. What's stopping them from selling TVs which stop working if it hasn't been able to connect to the mothership for a few weeks?

And instead of a full brick, let's just downgrade to 360p and call it an "expiration of your complementary free Enhanced Video trial".

gruez 4 days ago||
>We've already had TVs which only started serving ads after a few months of use. What's stopping them from selling TVs which stop working if it hasn't been able to connect to the mothership for a few weeks?

Same thing that prevents your phone manufacturer from adding a firmware level backdoor that uploads all your nudes to the mothership 1 day after the warranty expires. At some point you just have to assume they're not going to screw you over.

inetknght 4 days ago||
> At some point you just have to assume they're not going to screw you over.

That'd be quite naive in my opinion.

afarah1 4 days ago||||
That's not a good answer, unless you just want cable. YouTube, Netflix, etc won't work. Buying hardware is paying extra which is already a deterrent, but anyway just shifts the problem to that piece of hardware - is the stick vetted to not do any harm? Other solutions are often impractical or overly complex for non-technical people. I haven't seen any good answers to date. I guess your TV just shouldn't spy on everything you watch? Seems like a reasonable expectation.
raw_anon_1111 4 days ago|||
Buy an AppleTV.

Google devices are out because they are developed by a advertising company.

The Roku CEO outright said they sell Roku devices below costs to advertise to you.

jimt1234 4 days ago|||
My TCL/Roku TV recently started showing popups during streams with services like YouTubeTV and PlutoTV, that basically say, "Click here to watch this same program on the Roku Network". I poked around the settings on the TV, and sure enough, there were some new "smart" settings added and enabled by default. I disabled the settings, and the popups stopped. But it's only a matter of time before something else appears.
ahefner 4 days ago|||
Apple is already sending spam notifications for stupid bullshit like that F1 movie.
crote 4 days ago||||
> is the stick vetted to not do any harm

The stick is $30 and trivially replaced. The TV is closer to $1000. Worst-case scenario I'll just hook up an HTPC or Blue-Ray player to the TV.

raw_anon_1111 4 days ago||
The $30 stick is also sold below cost and makes money from advertising. The only one that I would trust is AppleTV
BeetleB 4 days ago||||
Because with a stick, I can easily decide to chuck it and replace with another. Over and over again. Hard to do with a TV. Even if I had the money, disposing of one is a royal pain.
EduardoBautista 4 days ago||||
I trust Apple’s business model.
garciasn 4 days ago||
For now. They’re about to undergo a CEO change, again. Who knows what will happen in the future, particularly if the shareholders expect the perceived value provided by enshittification.
merely-unlikely 4 days ago|||
John Ternus, SVP of Hardware Engineering, is considered the front runner for CEO right now. The board wants a more product oriented CEO this time. Things could change but makes me optimistic.
josegonzalez 4 days ago|||
Its not like they change CEOs every year - Tim Cook has been CEO since 2011.
xdennis 4 days ago||||
I just connect it to a computer and watch YouTube without ads and movies without anti-piracy warnings (from a store I go to-rrent them).
afarah1 4 days ago||
How do you hook it up and how do you control it remotely?
qwerpy 4 days ago|||
I do the same thing. My PC is hooked up via HDMI to a receiver which goes to the TV via HDMI. I use VNC on my phone to remote control it. It works well. The phone’s touch screen functions as a mouse and you can pull up the phone’s on screen keyboard to type. My wife is extremely non technical and does fine with it. Usually we just use the browser to watch ad-blocked YouTube or unofficial sports streams.
YurgenJurgensen 4 days ago|||
Elecom Relacon, the only wireless input device worth owning.
stackedinserter 3 days ago|||
We just switched to a laptops and USB-HDMI cable that always dangles near our TV. Someone wants to see F1, sports or a movie, they just plug it and watch like it's a big computer screen. If 9yo can do it, anyone can do it.
bradfitz 4 days ago||||
Until they start using Sidewalk/LPWAN type things automatically instead of your home WiFi.
leetbulb 4 days ago||
Pretty sure some already do this.
peacebeard 4 days ago|||
This theoretical capability could connect to a neighbor's WIFI in an apartment or condo.
raw_anon_1111 4 days ago||
Every router shipped these days either by the cable company or separately is configured with a password by default.
jermaustin1 4 days ago|||
And a guest wifi that is password free on by default. All it takes is a neighbor to get a new router from the ISP. I just had to turn my guest wifi off because I noticed a lot of bandwidth on it (likely coming from our neighbor who was bragging about cord cutting).
raw_anon_1111 4 days ago|||
Even that WiFi is gated by having to have an account with the ISP at least it was with Comcast.
SoftTalker 4 days ago||
what stops Comcast and TV makers from making a deal to use it?
raw_anon_1111 4 days ago||
So now Comcast is going to make a deal that TVs can use their guest WiFi network without logging in but only to send surveillance information?
gambiting 4 days ago||||
>>And a guest wifi that is password free on by default.

I've literally never seen a router with a guest wifi enabled by default, from any ISP or otherwise - is that a common thing where you live?

raw_anon_1111 4 days ago||
It was common that Comcast has a separate WiFi guest network where anyone with a Comcast account could sign in and use it.
peacebeard 4 days ago|||
It's anecdotal, but I live in an apartment and while most of the WIFI networks are password protected, not all are.
Loughla 4 days ago||
My Wi-Fi isn't. I live about 2 miles away from my closest neighbor, so it was an inconvenience.

The trick was finding TV's and what not that don't need an Internet connection. Vizio was the only brand I could find that still had just dumb tv flat screens, believe it or not.

hsbauauvhabzb 4 days ago||
I would have thought modern devices would complain about unencrypted enough that putting even the password 123456 would be less painful
mrinterweb 4 days ago|||
I would much rather buy a dumb TV. I feel that the smart TV experience is an opportunity it eventually make TVs feel dated and slow. I would rather buy a standalone streamer that I can plug in. Buying a new $100 dollar streamer every couple years is cheaper and produces less e-waste than buying a new giant TV.

I isolate smart TVs and other IOT devices to a separate network/subnet, and usually block their network access unless they need an update.

kovvy 4 days ago|||
A related alternative would be that the listed tv price included the price of time spent viewing ads, and the sale price of your usage data (and that changing the price, say by showing more ads, required agreement).

A DUMB TV costs $x, while a badly behaved smart TV costs $y up front, plus $z per hour for the next few years, where y is potentially slightly less than x.

platevoltage 4 days ago|||
Look at "Commercial" TVs. This is what they call dumb TV's nowadays. I guess they're mainly targeted at businesses who want a TV to for things like informational displays, conferences, etc.

I only found this out because I thought my 15 year old plasma TV had died, but it ended up being the power cord.

ge96 4 days ago|||
They say you can just get a large PC monitor, for me it's the ads that would drive me nuts
clhodapp 4 days ago||
I would agree if they would sell them over 55 inches with the latest panel technology in a similar pricing ballpark.
ge96 4 days ago|||
I really like that thin one featured on LTT a long time ago, it's like just a sheet of glass you attach to a wall, it's crazy.
mapt 4 days ago||
Extra-thin LCD panels are typically edge-lit, and edge-lit panels are not faring well at all in RTINGS' longevity test.
buellerbueller 4 days ago|||
And audio. I don't want a separate audio setup.
SoftTalker 4 days ago||
A separate audio setup could have much better sound than built-in TV speakers.
buellerbueller 4 days ago||
Certainly, but I am not interested in dealing with that.
askvictor 4 days ago|||
The exist, for commercial/enterprise use (usually digital signage and meeting rooms). They cost a few times more than consumer-grade, because of the word 'enterprise'
JumpCrisscross 4 days ago||
> They cost a few times more than consumer-grade, because of the word 'enterprise'

They cost more because they aren’t subsidised by this junk.

dredmorbius 4 days ago||
Likely much smaller sales volume as well. Economies of scale are a thing, especially where marketing (largely through dealers / vendors / distributors) is a major expense.
JumpCrisscross 4 days ago||
> Likely much smaller sales volume as well

It’s a good hypothesis. Every one I’ve seen is the consumer version in a more-rugged exterior running different software, so I’m sceptical.

dredmorbius 4 days ago||
That would again suggest that it's marketing (that is, the process of finding distributors and buyers) rather than production and design that are the principle cost-drivers. A seller of "dumb" devices has far fewer potential buyers (or at least perceives as such), and fewer channels for distribution, so they're going to have to focus more effort, and cost, on sales and marketing. It's not the cost of designing or producing the products, but of matching them to distributors and buyers, which would dominate.

I'm not certain of this, but I'm fairly confident it's a factor.

adastra22 4 days ago||
But a commercial TV - the ones used, ironically, for ad displays in malls and things like that.
gambiting 4 days ago||
Ha, we had a company email to all employees saying that we are not allowed to view any company confidential material on any Samsung TVs and appliances because they will take a screenshot of whatever it is you are watching and send it back to Samsung, unless explicitly disabled in settings but that setting is frequently "bugged" and just turns itself back on after some firmware updates.
sidewndr46 4 days ago|
Do they also block using Microsoft Windows ?
gambiting 4 days ago||
Does windows take screenshots of my activity and send it to Microsoft to sell me ads?
a456463 3 days ago||
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/retrace-your-ste...
gambiting 3 days ago||
"Recall does not share snapshots or associated data with Microsoft or third parties"

So the answer is no, it doesn't.

mixmastamyk 1 day ago||
You're not thinking four dimensionally.

https://arstechnica.com/ai/2024/06/windows-recall-demands-an...

thdrtol 4 days ago|
Good.

As long as there are no clear laws this will only get worse. Imagine a TV with an e-sim. There will be no way to turn the connection off unless you pack it in aluminum foil.

Talking about e-sim, Texas should also sue all modern car brands. Most cars today are online and spy on your driving behavior.

arein3 4 days ago|
This is scary, but very likely in the future.
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