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Posted by evakhoury 12/16/2025

AI will make formal verification go mainstream(martin.kleppmann.com)
826 points | 432 commentspage 10
LurkandComment 7 days ago|
Open-banking will make formal verification go mainstream.
brador 7 days ago||
Few care about software that much. Just look at the buggy messes of the last 10 years by every one of the top tech companies.

Large scale software is made cheap and fast, not good.

password-app 12/17/2025||
Formal verification for AI is fascinating, but the real challenge is runtime verification of AI agents.

Example: AI browser agents can be exploited via prompt injection (even Google's new "User Alignment Critic" only catches 90% of attacks).

For password management, we solved this with zero-knowledge architecture - the AI navigates websites but never sees credentials. Credentials stay in local Keychain, AI just clicks buttons.

Formal verification would be amazing for proving these isolation guarantees. Has anyone worked on verifying AI agent sandboxes?

0xWTF 12/17/2025||
And this is the year of the Linux desktop...
waterTanuki 12/16/2025||
I'm skeptical of formal verification mainly because it's akin to trying to predict the future with a sophisticated crystal ball. You can't formally guarantee hardware won't fail, or that solar radiation will flip a bit. What seems to have had much better ROI in terms of safety critical systems is switching to memory-safe languages that rely less on runtime promises and more on compiler guarantees.
dboreham 12/17/2025||
0.02/wo: formal methods are just "fancy tests". Of course tests are good to have, and fancy tests even better. I've found that humans are pretty terrible on average at creating tests (perhaps it would be more accurate to say that their MBA overlords have not been great at supporting their testing endeavors). Meanwhile I've found that LLMs are pretty good at generating tests and don't have the human tendency to see that kind of activity as resume-limiting. Therefore even a not amazing LLM writing tests turns out to be a very useful resource if you have any interest in the quality of your product and mitigating various failure risks.
kerameikos34 12/17/2025||
This is utter nonsense. LLMs are dumb. Formal Methods require actual thinking. Specs are 100% reasoning.

I highly dislike the general tone of the article. Formal Methods are not fringe, they are used all around the world by good teams building reliable systems. The fact they are not mainstream have more to do with the poor ergonomics of the old tools and the corporate greed that got rid of the design activities in the software development process to instead bring about the era of agile cowboy coding. They did this just because they wanted to churn out products quickly at the expense of quality. It was never the correct civilized way of working and never will be.

robot-wrangler 12/17/2025|
If you like the rigor of formal methods and dislike the vaguery of LLMs, shouldn't you be in favor of using the first to improve the second?
p1necone 12/16/2025||
Now: AI generates incorrect code.

Future: AI generates incorrect code, and formal verification that proves that the code performs that incorrect behaviour.

popcorncowboy 7 days ago||
I will respectfully take the other side of this bet on polymarket if it ever shows up.
Meneth 7 days ago|
There are bugs in the specification, so there are bugs in the verfication as well.
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