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Posted by dvaun 12/17/2025

How did IRC ping timeouts end up in a lawsuit?(mjg59.dreamwidth.org)
158 points | 32 comments
empathy_m 12/19/2025|
Wow, I read the linked case ( https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/kb/2025/3063 ) and the High Court judge's ruling has a remarkably strong and thorough discussion of both modern Internet forum culture and the law. Really interesting writing.
chrisfosterelli 12/18/2025||
A whole other part of this argument that could be made is about the inherent assumption that a ping timeout is caused by an event that only affects one machine.
kstrauser 12/18/2025||
For sure. Having lived on IRC for a while many years ago, I assure any bystanders that this is assuredly not always the case.
paradox460 12/19/2025|||
Imagine them trying to sue every person on one side of a netsplit
eek2121 12/19/2025||
...and back in my day (yeah I am becoming an old fart), it was dead simple to cause a netsplit on most networks.
paradox460 12/19/2025||
I'll admit to sending a couple of the messages that made Linksys routers restart. I also set up automatic k-lines on Snoonet for these very strings, years ago
oooyay 12/18/2025||
Ergo isn't a federated server, it's meant to scale vertically
KK7NIL 12/18/2025||
The internet is a "federated" network though, so their point still applies.
oooyay 12/20/2025||
No, Ergo doesn't have netsplits because there isn't anything to split with. The point does not apply.
chrisfosterelli 12/22/2025||
There are events that may affect more than one machine which are not netsplits.

e.g. an ISP with common users experiences an outage, an IRC client with common users has a bug, common users within the same time zone have automated system updates run at the same time, the IRC server experiences an upstream network disruption affecting only some routes, a regional power outage occurs, a hosted bouncer service with common users has an outage, etc, etc, etc...

RankingMember 12/18/2025||
Glad to see a case that could've very easily gone sideways due to its technical nature come out right.
bombcar 12/18/2025||
The facts were never argued, the other party failed to follow procedure.
rwmj 12/18/2025|
After "being warned of the consequences on multiple occasions the Schestowitzes never provided any witness statements", so that's hardly Matthew's fault.
noname120 12/19/2025|||
Yeah but that means that the “court said I’m right ” rhetoric is invalid. It’s as if you said that a no bill or dismissal proved your innocence: it doesn’t.

Now although I have only superficial understanding of the case at stake I believe the author nonetheless (but with a weak certainty until I hear the other side).

CocaKoala 12/19/2025||
I think it is imprecise to say that the facts were not argued - they were! As the judge writes in paragraph 58,

> The authorship or control of these accounts has consistently been strenuously denied by Dr Garrett. I have no evidence from the Defendants to support it. Instead, they necessarily rely on an inferential case built on a limited number of pleaded facts, some of which are undisputed. I consider them in turn.

There were not _witness statements_ presented by the defense in support of myriad facts, but it's not like the case for the defense wasn't made at all.

nullc 12/20/2025||
> There were not _witness statements_ presented by the defense in support of myriad facts, but it's not like the case for the defense wasn't made at all.

It kind of wasn't. In UK civil cases your witness statement takes the place of your testimony on the stand (only cross exam is done on the stand). Outside of your witness statement(s) the other material in your case (e.g. random pleadings and inter-parties correspondence) aren't made under the same penalties for perjury.

So if you're going to tell a bunch of lies in your case (ill advised, for sure) then you're best off to do it via all other means and avoid ever producing a witness statement.

But as a result it's also important for the judge to generally discard such positions when not supported by material attested to in a way with serious consequences.

Neywiny 12/19/2025||
This vaguely reminds me of years ago when a friend got hit at an intersection and went to court to fight that he wasn't at fault. I ran the numbers a bit and found that whoever hit him would've been moving at a very high though not outlandish (think maybe 60mph in a 30mph or something) speed. But they never showed up and he won by default
runningmike 12/18/2025||
See also https://techrights.org/i/2025/12/case-judgment-summary.html
doublerabbit 12/19/2025|
> He was awarded substantial damages of £70,000 and was also awarded his costs.

I could do with £70,000 - I'm suing you for your comment of making me jealous of £70k.

sidewndr46 12/19/2025||
This is pretty funny and reminds me of when some company in the US tried to sue someone for copyright infringement. The evidence they offered up was just screenshots of IP addresses, not even a packet log of the traffic in question.
tmcz26 12/19/2025||
Why do I get a 403 when trying to read this? My IP is from Brazil, don’t see a reason to be geoblocked ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
logicziller 12/19/2025||
403 Error.
zoobab 12/19/2025|
We need Techrights to expose corrupted institutions like the European Patent Office.

Trying to bankrupt them with defamation lawsuits does not help.

mjg59 12/19/2025|
I'm curious what you think the correct response to defamation is? At multiple opportunities (including the morning of the trial) Roy and Rianne were given the option of just removing the defamatory material and apologising and having the case dropped without having to pay anything. This is in no way my preferred outcome.
zoobab 12/19/2025||
Will read the court decision during Xmas time.

As a side note, my organization FFII eV was sued for defamation for criticizing patent trolling companies in the past:

https://edri.org/our-work/edrigramnumber3-16ffii/

My position was always to correct the statements, stick to the facts, and avoid wasting money on lawyers.

mjg59 12/19/2025||
I'd have been entirely happy with that outcome, and I sent Roy and Rianne emails asking for that before getting lawyers involved. Even then, the initial request was just for correction - we offered to settle several times after the case started, and Roy documented his refusal in https://techrights.org/n/2025/11/04/We_Turned_Down_Every_Set... . As I said, these efforts continued until the morning of the trial, when I explicitly told my lawyers to make an offer that would involve Roy and Rianne paying nothing.

The way English court costs work is that if someone offers a settlement that would be more favourable than the court eventually orders (ie, the defendant could have settled for less than the damages the court orders, or the claimant could have settled for more than the damages the court orders) and that settlement is refused, then additional damages and costs are due as a consequence of refusing the early settlement offer and costing everyone more money. But for this to work, the court cannot be told about the settlement offer until afterwards - otherwise the judge could be influenced. As a result, there won't be any discussion of settlement offers in the judgement.

(This does have an unfortunate consequence - a defendant who wants to keep a case out of court can make a settlement offer that's higher than the court is likely to offer, and if the claimant refuses then the entire exercise ends up being much more expensive)

sidewndr46 12/19/2025||
This seems like a case where some application of Game theory would lead to a prediction of an unusual outcome being the most common one.