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Posted by gmays 2 days ago

I doubt that anything resembling genuine AGI is within reach of current AI tools(mathstodon.xyz)
136 points | 110 commentspage 2
AndrewKemendo 1 day ago||
The term Artificial Intelligence was coined in 1955 for the Dartmouth Summer Research Project on Artificial Intelligence. The Gods of AI all got together: John McCarthy, Marvin Minsky, Nathaniel Rochester, and Claude Shannon. They defined the entire concept of Artificial Intelligence in a single sentence:

The conjecture that every aspect of learning or any other feature of intelligence can in principle be so precisely described that a machine can be made to simulate it.

The only AI explainer youll need: https://kemendo.com/Understand-AI.html

keernan 1 day ago||
On a more practical level, I would be interested in Terry's thoughts on the open letter Sam Altman co-signed stating that "mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority," alongside risks like pandemics and nuclear war.

Do current AI tools genuinely pose such risks?

trio8453 2 days ago||
> This results in the somewhat unintuitive combination of a technology that can be very useful and impressive, while simultaneously being fundamentally unsatisfying and disappointing

Useful = great. We've made incredible progress in the past 3-5 years.

The people who are disappointed have their standards and expectations set at "science fiction".

lxgr 2 days ago||
I think many people are now learning that their definition of intelligence was actually not very precise.

From what I've seen, in response to that, goalposts are then often moved in the way that requires least updating of somebody's political, societal, metaphysical etc. worldview. (This also includes updates in favor of "this will definitely achieve AGI soon", fwiw.)

knallfrosch 2 days ago||
I remember when the goal posts were set at the "Turing test."

That's certainly not coming back.

rightbyte 2 days ago|||
If you know the tricks wont you be able to figure out if some chat is done by a LLM?
mrguyorama 22 hours ago|||
The goal posts were never set at the "Turing test"

It's not a real thing. You do not remember the goal posts ever being there.

Turing put forth a thought experiment in the early days of some discussions about "artificial" thinking machines on a very philisophical level.

Add to that, nobody who claims to have "passed" the turing test has ever done an actual example of that thought experiment, which is about taking two respondents and finding out which is human. It is NOT talking to a single respondent and deciding whether they are an LLM or not.

It also has never been considered a valid "test" of "intelligence" as it was obvious from the very very beginning that tricking a person wasn't really meaningful, as most people can be tricked by even simple systems.

ELIZA was the end of any thought around "The turing test", as it was able to "trick" tons of people and show how useless the turing thought experience was. Anyone who claims ELIZA is intelligent would be very silly.

danaris 2 days ago||
Or the people who are disappointed were listening to the AI hype men like Sam Altman, who have, in fact, been promising AGI or something very like it for years now.

I don't think it's fair to deride people who are disappointed in LLMs for not being AGI when many very prominent proponents have been claiming they are or soon will be exactly that.

johnnienaked 1 day ago||
Tao is obviously a smart guy but he's really lost the plot on this AI stuff
Taek 2 days ago||
We seem to be moving the goalposts on AGI, are we not? 5 years ago, the argument that AGI wasn't here yet was that you couldn't take something like AlphaGo and use it to play chess. If you wanted that, you had to do a new training run with new training data.

But now, we have LLMs that can reliably beat video games like Pokemon, without any specialized training for playing video games. And those same LLMs can write code, do math, write poetry, be language tutors, find optimal flight routes from one city to another during the busy Christmas season, etc.

How does that not fit the definition of "General Intelligence"? It's literally as capable as a high school student for almost any general task you throw it at.

oidar 2 days ago||
I think the games tasks are worth exploring more. If you look at that recent Pokemon post - it's not as capable as a high school student - it took a long, long time. I have a private set of tests, that any 8 year old could easily solve that any LLM just absolutely fails on. I suspect that plenty of the people claiming AGI isn't here yet have similar personal tests.
krackers 1 day ago||
Arc-Agi 3 is coming soon, I'm very excited for that because it's a true test of multimodality, spatial reasoning, and goal planning. I think there was some preliminary post somewhere that did show that current models basically try to brute-force their way through and don't actually "learn the rules of the game" as efficiently as humans do.
oidar 1 day ago||
How do you think they are training for the spatial part of the tests? It doesn’t seem to lend itself well to token based “reasoning”. I wonder if they are just synthetically creating training data and hope a new emergent spatial reason ability appears.
krackers 1 day ago||
>think they are training for the spatial part of the tests

I'm not sure the party that "they" is referring to here, since arc-agi-3 dataset isn't released yet and labs probably have not begun targeting it. For arc-agi-2, possibly just synthetic data might have been enough to saturate the benchmark, since most frontier models do well on it yet we haven't seen any corresponding jump in multimodal skill use, with maybe the exception of "nano banana".

>lend itself well to token based “reasoning”

One could perhaps do reasoning/COT with vision tokens instead of just text tokens. Or reasoning in latent space which I guess might be even better. There have been papers on both, but I don't know if it's an approach that scales. Regardless gemini 3 / nano banana have had big gains on visual and spatial reasoning, so they must have done something to get multimodality with cross-domain transfer in a way that 4o/gpt-image wasn't able to.

For arc-agi-3, the missing pieces seem to be both "temporal reasoning" and efficient in-context learning. If they can train for this, it'd have benefits for things like tool-calling as well, which is why it's an exciting benchmark.

lxgr 2 days ago|||
I think we're noticing that our goalposts for AGI were largely "we'll recognize it when we see it", and now as we are getting to some interesting places, it turns out that different people actually understood very different things by that.
zahlman 1 day ago||
> 5 years ago, the argument that AGI wasn't here yet was that you couldn't take something like AlphaGo and use it to play chess.

No; that was one, extremely limited example of a broader idea. If I point out that your machine is not a general calculator because it gives the wrong answer for six times nine, and then you fix the result it gives in that case, you have not refuted me. If I now find that the answer is incorrect in some other case, I am not "moving goalposts" by pointing it out.

(But also, what lxgr said.)

> But now, we have LLMs that can reliably beat video games like Pokemon, without any specialized training for playing video games. And those same LLMs can write code, do math, write poetry, be language tutors, find optimal flight routes from one city to another during the busy Christmas season, etc.

The AI systems that do most of these things are not "LLMs".

> It's literally as capable as a high school student for almost any general task you throw it at.

And yet embarrassing deficiencies are found all the time ("how many r's in strawberry", getting duped by straightforward problems dressed up to resemble classic riddles but without the actual gotcha, etc.).

Taek 1 day ago||
> The AI systems that do most of these things are not "LLMs".

Uh, every single example that I listed except for the 'playing video games' example is something that I regularly use frontier models to do for myself. I have ChatGPT and Gemini help me find flight routes, tutor me in Spanish (Gemini 3 is really good at this), write poetry and code, solve professional math problems (usually related to finance and trading), help me fix technical issues with my phone and laptop, etc etc.

If you say to yourself, "hey this thing is a general intelligence, I should try to throw it at problems I have generally", you'll find yourself astonished at the range of tasks with which it can outperform you.

zahlman 1 day ago||
> Uh, every single example that I listed except for the 'playing video games' example is something that I regularly use frontier models to do for myself.

LLMs are at most one component of the systems you refer to. Reasoning models and agents are something larger.

> If you say to yourself, "hey this thing is a general intelligence, I should try to throw it at problems I have generally", you'll find yourself astonished at the range of tasks with which it can outperform you.

Where AI has been thrust at me (search engines and YouTube video and chat summaries) it has been for the sort of thing where I'd expect it to excel, yet I've been underwhelmed. The one time I consciously invoked the "AI assist" on a search query (to do the sort of thing I might otherwise try on Wolfram Alpha) it committed a basic logical error. The project READMEs that Show HN has exposed me to this year have been almost unfailingly abominable. (Curiously, I'm actually okay with AI art a significant amount of the time.)

But none of that experience is even a hundredth as annoying as the constant insinuation from AI proponents that any and all opposition is in some way motivated by ego protection.

ath3nd 2 days ago||
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moktonar 2 days ago||
There’s a guaranteed path to AGI, but it’s blocked behind computational complexity. Finding an efficient algorithm to simulate Quantum Mechanics should be top priority for those seeking AGI. A more promising way around it is using Quantum Computing, but we’ll have to wait for that to become good enough..
themafia 2 days ago||
Required energy density at the necessary scale will be your next hurdle.
moktonar 2 days ago||
Once you have the efficient algorithm you approximate asymptotically with the energy you have, of course you can’t obtain the same precision
themafia 2 days ago||
Or speed. I think Frank Herbert was on to something in Dune. The energy efficiency of the human brain is hard to beat. Perhaps we should invest in discovering "spice." I think it might be more worthwhile.

Okay, enough eggnog and posting.

lxgr 2 days ago|||
That would arguably not be artificial intelligence, but rather simulated natural intelligence.

It also seems orders of magnitude less resource efficient than higher-level approaches.

moktonar 2 days ago||
What’s the difference? Arguably the latter will be better IMO than the former
lxgr 2 days ago||
How many orders of magnitude? Nearly as many as it would be less efficient?
moktonar 1 day ago||
It’s like comparing apples and oranges
legulere 2 days ago||
How would simulating quantum mechanics help with AGI?
fsmv 1 day ago|||
My guess is they believe in the Penrose idea that consciousness has something to do with quantum mechanics
nddkkfkf 2 days ago||||
Obviously, quantum supremacy is semiologically orthogonal to AGI (Artificial General Inteligence) ontological recursive synapses... this is trivial.
nddkkfkf 2 days ago||
now buy the stock
moktonar 2 days ago|||
By simulating it
legulere 2 days ago||
What exactly should get simulated and how do you think quantum mechanics will help with this?
moktonar 2 days ago||
At least the solar system I would say. Quantum mechanics will help you do that in the correct way to obtain what Nature already obtained: general intelligence.
Davidzheng 2 days ago|
The text continues "with current AI tools" which is not clearly defined to me (does it mean current Gen + scaffold? Anything which is llm reasoning model? Anything built with a large llm inside? ). In any case, the title is misleading for not containing the end of the sentence. Please can we fix the title?
Davidzheng 2 days ago|
Also i think the main source of interest is because it is said by Terry, so that should be in the title too.