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Posted by _dain_ 12/21/2025

Coarse is better(borretti.me)
216 points | 115 comments
airstrike 12/21/2025|
I'm no image gen expert but these prompts are downright terrible even by my standards.

Are you really complaining that ", from the British Museum." leads to it a painting in the actual British Museum? Just remove the sentence, and you'll be fine. Now good luck trying to make Midjourney place the image at the museum!

I'm a paying MJ user and am impressed by Nano Banana. They're different models. They each serve their purpose.

This analysis is just noise. Yawn.

Ironically, even an LLM with its fake reasoning capabilities can point out the issue with the prompts if you ask it to critique this article.

wrsh07 12/21/2025||
It is interesting what the nbp model takes away from the prompt, though

Eg instead of focusing on the artist, it focuses on the location

This makes sense! I imagine it was trained in some sort of rlvr like way where you give it a prompt and then interrogate "does this image ..." (where each question examines a different aspect of the prompt)

It's obviously an incredible model. I think there's a limit to how useful another article praising it is in contrast with one expressing frustration

I would also welcome someone writing a short takedown where they fix the prompts and get better-than-2022 results from nbp

gwern 12/22/2025||
> I would also welcome someone writing a short takedown where they fix the prompts and get better-than-2022 results from nbp

NBP (and the new ChatGPT generator) are integrated with LLMs to various degrees, so seems like the obvious starting point is a reverse approach: ask them to describe the old images which has the esthetics that Fernando Borretti likes, and start generating from those prompts. If you can recover the old images, then it was just a prompting issue. ("Sampling can show the presence of knowledge but not the absence.") If you can't even with their own 'native' descriptions, then that points to mode-collapse (especially all of the 'esthetic tuning' like DPO everyone does now) as being the biggest problem.

dan-robertson 12/21/2025||
These sorts of prompts used to be quite important when DALL-E was new. I do feel like a lot of the article is just that prompts should be written differently though I think there’s some truth in the idea that nanobanana feels less artistic in some ways.
pornel 12/21/2025||
The author is using special prompts exploiting flaws of the old models, and doesn't like that new models interpret the hacks literally instead.

The new models have prompt adherence precise enough to distinguish what "British Museum" or "auction at Christie's" is from the art itself, instead of blending a bag of words together into a single vector and implicitly copying all of the features of all works containing "museum" or "ArtStation" in their description.

RHSeeger 12/21/2025|
The prompts bothered me a lot, too. I don't do a lot of work with AI, but

> A painting sold at Sotheby's

and

> A painting in the style of something that would be sold at Sotheby's

convey very different meaning (to me).

dleeftink 12/21/2025||
Eno applies:

> It's the sound of failure: so much modern art is the sound of things going out of control, of a medium pushing to its limits and breaking apart. The distorted guitar sound is the sound of something too loud for the medium supposed to carry it. The blues singer with the cracked voice is the sound of an emotional cry too powerful for the throat that releases it. The excitement of grainy film, of bleached-out black and white, is the excitement of witnessing events too momentous for the medium assigned to record them.

2b3a51 12/21/2025|
And

> "By the time a whole technology exists for something it probably isn't the most interesting thing to be doing."

stephantul 12/21/2025||
Where did you get this from? Searching for it, in a weird irony I guess, just leads me back to this post.
cryzinger 12/21/2025||
I recognize it as a quote from A Year With Swollen Appendices, which is a great read even if you aren't an Eno fan (although I am, which admittedly makes me biased :P)
stephantul 12/22/2025||
Thank you! I’ll check that out
airza 12/21/2025||
Years of refinement on the taste of people with no taste has produced a model with no taste. Crazy
Undertow_ 12/21/2025||
it's not shocking that this is the result of "art" from people that think complexity and accuracy are the only qualifying factors.
drob518 12/21/2025|||
I tasted the model, but then I spit it right back out.
mcpeepants 12/21/2025||
they put a special coating on the model to discourage this behavior
drob518 12/21/2025||
Ah, that explains it.
mlpro 12/21/2025||
Lol, yeah.
BoredPositron 12/21/2025||
The OP would likely prefer Disco Diffusion if they want their art to remain coarse. Modern models possess advanced spatial understanding and adhere strictly to prompts, whereas the OP is using unstructured inputs better suited for older models with CLIP or T5 encoders that lack that spatial awareness. These legacy prompting styles are incompatible with Gen3 models that utilize VLMs as text encoders. If the OP wants to explore modern architecture, they should use Flux.2 with a LoRA or perhaps a coarser model like Zit if they prefer to rely solely on text conditioning. Nano Banana Pro requires extremely long and distinctive prompting to achieve specific aesthetics. His blog post shows a lack of understanding and a lack of adaption to modern architecture which would be fine if it wasn't that dismissive.

Here is an image from NBP with an adapted prompt for Italian futurism: https://imgur.com/a/4pN0I0R

and for Kowloon:

https://imgur.com/a/rDT8dfP

raincole 12/21/2025||
It's ridiculous lol.

Midjourney is optimized for beautiful images, while Nano Banana is optimized for better prompt adherence and (more importantly) image editing. It should be obvious for anyone who spent 20 minutes trying out these models.

If your goal is to replace human designers with cheaper options[0], Nano Banana / ChatGPT is indefinitely more useful than Midjourney. I'd argue Midjourney is completely useless except for social media clout or making concept art for experienced designers.

[0]: A hideous goal, I know. But we shouldn't sugarcoat it: this is what underpin the whole AI scheme now.

jamblewamble 12/21/2025|
It is what has underpinned all of human progress towards automation. It isn't a bad thing. Every time we automate something the luddites cry out about the coming mass unemployment. It has never happened.
coldtea 12/21/2025|||
>Every time we automate something the luddites cry out about the coming mass unemployment. It has never happened

It has happened each and every time, it just haven't affected you personally. Starting of course with the original luddites - they didn't complain out of some philosophical opposition to automation.

Each time in changes like this a huge number of people lost their jobs and took big hits in their quality of life. The "new jobs", when they arrive, arrive for others.

This includes the post 1990s switch to service and digital economies and outsourcing, which obliterated countless factory towns in the US - and those people didn't magically turn to coders and creatives. At best they took unemployment, big decreases in job prospects, shitty "gig" economy jobs, or, well, worse, including alcohol and opiods.

With AI it's even worse, since it has the capacity to replace jobs without adding new ones, or a tiny handful at a hugely smaller rate.

tim333 12/21/2025||
Strictly speaking outsourcing to cheap labour isn't automation.
coldtea 12/22/2025||
Strickly speaking yes, I say the "switch to service and digital economies and outsourcing" though, which also includes lots of automation, but also because it's not just automation where people say removes jobs and others say it's fine, but also switches to different kinds of economy (which see the same arguments).

For the purposes of the discussion, even considering automation and outsourcing alone, the effect is the same though: the human job dissapears from the local market, but the company still gets the thing made.

array_key_first 12/21/2025||||
It literally happens every single time - people DO lose jobs. They might get new jobs, but they definitely lose their old ones.

And not everyone gets new jobs, because usually the new job is fundamentally different and might not be compatible with the person or their original desire out of their employment.

stavros 12/21/2025||
The problem isn't so much automation, but that the benefits of automation are invariably reaped by a few tech CEOs. It's not society in general that benefits, it's that the rich get richer, and the rest of us barely scrape by. If wealth were evenly distributed, nobody would bat an eyelid at AI.

AI is not the problem. Late-stage capitalism and wealth disparity is.

pchangr 12/21/2025||||
It has happened. There is a related term we use which is related to a historical fact .. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite
loeg 12/21/2025||
GP is saying mass unemployment caused by technology hasn't happened, not that the Luddites weren't a real historical group.
pchangr 12/21/2025||
Correct, and I am saying the Luddites were a group of people that suffered mass unemployment following a technological change. Specifically, the luddites were a group of 19th century textile workers that were left out of work due to the introduction of automated machinery in the textile industry. In other words, they are a perfect example of what GP claims hasn’t happened.
loeg 12/21/2025||
A small group is not "mass unemployment" -- that's the point.

> In a British textile industry that employed a million people, the [Luddite] movement’s numbers never rose above a couple of thousand.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/rage-against-the-machine

coldtea 12/21/2025||
The "never rose above a couple of thousand" small group refers to the number of activist Luddites. It doesn't refer to the people working in the textile industry in general - which was a big group, and which was heavily affected.
loeg 12/22/2025||
Even "all textile workers" was never a large fraction of "all workers."
malnourish 12/21/2025||||
What other automations have been hyped to automate and replace so many different types of jobs at once?

Whether or not it comes to fruition, it's making large portions of society feel uneasy, and not just programmers, or artists, or teachers.

pchangr 12/21/2025||
The steam engine, for example
elictronic 12/21/2025||
Not finding a lot of sears and roebuck ads for steam engine driven girlfriends.
dullcrisp 12/21/2025||
You’re got the wrong catalog.
JeremyNT 12/21/2025||||
The promise is to automate the drudge work, freeing people to pursue their passions.

Like, you know... creating art.

wombatpm 12/21/2025|||
But most work IS drudge work and the automation causes new different drudgery. Use to be you could dictate a letter and someone from the typing pool would clean it up, proof it, and send it. Now those same people get to write their own crappy email themselves
coldtea 12/21/2025||||
Art will be created like AI - like it already got its hands on graphic design, and game art, and vfx, and music.

It will leave not-yet-automatable grudge work to people instead.

tekne 12/21/2025|||
I mean...

There's the concept, and then there's the painting.

AI slop from a generic prompt is not the same as "using AI to get my concept in physical form faster."

Imagine, for example, a one-man animated movie. But, like, with a huge amount of work put into good, artistic, key-frames; what would previously have been a manga. That's possible, soon, and I think that's huge and actual art.

throwaway613745 12/21/2025||
> what would previously have been a manga

Completely out of touch to downplay the entire manga industry as "skill issue".

Akira Toriyama totally created Dragonball as a manga because he was just wasn't good enough to make an animated movie!

Berserk is a book because Kentaro Miura just had skill issue!

Only imagine if Tolkien wanted to create the Lord of the Rings if he had AI!

As if a medium only artistic merit because sufficiently advanced technology just didn't exist yet. groooaaaaan

tekne 12/26/2025||
That's an uncharitable interpretation.

Let's say it takes 10 units of work to build a house, and 200 units of resources to build a skyscraper; on average. Let's further assume, after a point, that skill tends to increase quality by a lot more than it decreases resource consumption, so this is "about the best you can do".

A very skilled craftsman/artist can build an amazing house with 10 units. A low quality bargain barrel contractor will build a skyscraper for 200, but it's not going to be pretty.

If new technology means you can now build a skyscrapers for 10, that means that many more exciting and experimental concepts can be tested by building a skyscraper right away, whereas previously they could only be built as a house.

- Some concepts are just better as a house. Even with infinite resources, people will still make houses to this concept; it's not like houses are devalued or less useful or less nice. - Some concepts would be better as a skyscraper, but are very niche, so they were built as houses as a compromise. These can now be skyscrapers. This is no comment at all on the skill of the builder, only on the resources available to them (time, money, etc.)

I never said: - houses are worse (or better) - building houses is a skill issue

I merely said: - the choice of what to build is not 100% based on artistic merit; resource constraints must also be taken into account

And hence concluded: - if it becomes cheaper to build things, the choice of what to build depends more on artistic merit now

And speculated: - since there are all kinds of things that are really cool but really expensive, meaning we often (due to resource reasons) need to substitute a cheaper thing (which can be just as good or even superior for other concepts, just not the particular concept in question), we will likely see a lot more of Really Cool Thing now that it's cheap.

In short, thinking photography will enable a new mass market of images whereas previously paintings were really expensive and difficult to make, while still respecting that: - a master photographer can be just as skilled as a master painter - a master painter's work is not necessarily devalued by the existence of photography

And yet noting that - some paintings might be better as photographs, or would never be made at all because there simply wasn't enough money to paint them even if they in fact would be better as paintings

Think, for example, realistic war photography. Or realistic photography of non-privileged people and cultures. That's just... not painted very often.

Cheap is good for diversity of expression. It does not devalue what used to be expensive, except insamuch as the value was simply a shallow status signal about burning resources rather than real human expression.

Ok, /rant

vlovich123 12/21/2025||||
Except all the manufacturing jobs got shipped overseas and now those people are Walmart greeters or similar unskilled labor. Having a shit job isn’t unemployment but it’s not a huge step up
loeg 12/21/2025||
That isn't what happened. American jobs are more productive than ever. Americans are richer than ever. The modern luddites dramatically underestimate how bad the past was.
vlovich123 12/22/2025||
> Americans are richer than ever.

By what metric? One way is to look at the Gini coefficient - that’s worse than ever.

The bottom 20% has 2-3% of total net worth in the US. The middle 40% has seen a decline from 36% in 1989 to 28% in 2020. The top 0.1% has seen their net worth capture double from 7% in 1989 to 14% today.

The subtle thing that net worth ignores of course is inflation from growth in costs, so actually it’s harder for most people than in 1989, unless you’re talking about the ease of buying a TV or phone. Technology is more available and cheaper than ever but food and medicine is more expensive than ever.

loeg 12/22/2025||
The numbers you cite are about zero sum redistribution. They don't capture that a rising tide lifts all boats.

You're also wrong about costs -- people are wealthier today than in 1989 in constant, inflation-adjusted terms. It's true that some good are more expensive; but others are less expensive, and quality has increased significantly across most categories.

throwaway613745 12/21/2025|||
> Every time we automate something the luddites cry out about the coming mass unemployment. It has never happened.

It has happened every single time.

spaceman_2020 12/21/2025||
While I don’t disagree with the author, these are simply two completely different tools with different use cases. Nano Banana Pro throws out fantastic images you can actually use in your marketing right away. It’s not an art tool - it’s a business tool

As long as the older tools still exist to make art, I don’t see what the problem is. Use NBP to make your marketing pics, MJv2 for your art

andy99 12/21/2025||
You’re definitely on to something, people wouldn’t criticize as much as they are otherwise, they’d ignore it.

I think the whole point is that in optimizing for instruction following and boring realism we’ve lost what could have been some unique artistic elements of a new medium, but anyway.

efitz 12/21/2025||
Why does anyone serious about art want to make art with AI?

A large part of the magic of art is the human choices that go into it.

userbinator 12/21/2025|
Prompting an AI and then filtering the results is a "human choice".
spaqin 12/22/2025||
Two choices - one of prompt, one of the result, versus hundreds or thousands from the subject and composition, through the medium, to every single brushstroke, where one may have a significant meaning. To be improved upon when your skill improves as well.

This is more akin to going to a supermarket and buying peanut butter (prompt: peanut butter, filter by brand/price/taste). The product may be tasty and enjoyable but I am not impressed by that.

TrueDuality 12/21/2025|
I love the inherent wonder and joy in this post around the original images.
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