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Posted by Tomte 3 days ago

Reasons not to become famous (2020)(tim.blog)
163 points | 132 commentspage 2
eszed 3 days ago|
Everything in this article rings true to my limited and glancing observations of the phenomenon.

In a previous life I worked in an industry (entertainment) where becoming a celebrity is an occupational hazard. A few times I was treated as if I were famous in very, very, extremely minor ways - met at the stage door, followed down the street, stared at or photographed in a restaurant or public transportation - and it's super destabilizing and just... Weird. I was pleased to be able to turn the corner and "disappear", as it were.

I also had conversations about this with colleagues who were, let's say, well-known (but not even close to globally famous), and the shit they had to put up with was, if anything worse than described in the article - particularly when (this is theatre and independent film we're talking about) their profile didn't come with the income that could support, say, private security, or a secluded property. They were doing what they were doing in order to work on interesting projects with interesting people - and the ability to assure that was their favorite "perk" of their profile - and the "occupational hazard" framing comes from them.

Another (very not-famous, though you're almost guaranteed to have seen them in a supporting role in something they've done) person I worked with a couple of times has a globally "you know their face, at least" famous spouse, who got that way because they're an immensely talented and committed artist; someone I've admired for years. I never met that person, because a) they'd have had to deal with a lot of hassle getting into the theatre, and b) their presence would have been an overwhelming distraction from the (interesting, but low-profile) piece we were doing.

Fame is not something any well-adjusted person should wish for, and I have a good deal of sympathy for the people who seem to be destabilized by that level of attention.

bhaak 3 days ago||
I’m actively involved in two communities. The first is the NetHack roguelike community, and the second is the fan community of a German internet broadcaster that has existed, in one form or another, for about 25 years.

On average, I’d say both communities are equally kind and welcoming. I’d also argue that both contain roughly the same proportion of people who are unhinged and tend to go way over the top. The difference lies in how they go over the top.

In the NetHack community, you have people who start and immediately abandon 200,000 games during a tournament because they’re trying to roll the ideal starting conditions for a very specific playstyle. Then there are the Bobby Fischer types who create their own ultra-hard forks of the game because vanilla NetHack is too easy for them. There’s also plenty of criticism. Not everyone is happy with everything, but it’s mostly civil. The worst you usually get is something like, “The dev team sucks; they ruined the game with their latest changes.”

By contrast, in the internet broadcaster’s community there’s a very toxic minority that claims to have stopped watching years ago, yet continues to hate on the creators because the channel took a direction they didn’t like. Employees get mobbed and bullied, everything is torn down, and there’s a concerted effort to ruin the fun for everyone else.

I mean, I can understand that if you spent your formative teenage years “with” these people, it really hurts when that influence disappears. But can a parasocial relationship really go that far, that you drift into this kind of behavior?

How can someone be so hurt that they hold a grudge for years, keep hate-watching the creators, and invest so much time and energy into such a destructive hobby?

cevn 3 days ago|
I was a big fan of NH until 3.6, now it is too difficult so I switched to Evilhack which has been a breath of fresh air.
bhaak 3 days ago||
There have been various improvements over 3.6.0 during the development of the 3.6 branch. If you haven't you should give the not yet released 3.7 version a try. It's on hardfought.org for online play if you don't want to compile it yourself.

But you can't be claiming that 3.6 is too difficult if you're comfortable playing EvilHack. EvilHack is clearly more difficult than vanilla. :D

But I get the breath of fresh air. I was always playing Valkyries or Wizards and when I first entered the Tourist quest, I was hooked on getting more different levels and that was one of my main focus when developing UnNetHack.

cevn 2 days ago||
Ha, well I figured if I was going to die a lot, may as well be having a fresh experience. I play primarily Wizard and my favorite part is, I don't have to carry 100 daggers, and quarterstaff seems actually useful.

Like you said, that feeling of seeing a totally unknown level is a real rush. Now I am downloading and trying UnNethack :)

senshan 3 days ago||
Very interesting blog post, but...

At the age of 29 he wrote a self-help book. The most fascinating part is that the general public took it so enthusiastically and so seriously.

Really? Wisdom dispensed by a 29 years old? This aspect of general public keeps me amazed over and over again.

tim333 3 days ago|
It's not a bad book. https://www.amazon.com/Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp...

It's mostly about starting a small business by someone who'd started a small business selling nutritional supplements.

senshan 3 days ago||
I have my doubts: “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative

erelong 3 days ago||
Are there tips for becoming wealthy without becoming famous, then?
brian_spiering 1 day ago||
I got a the highest paid job I could find with the skills I have that I enjoyed "well-enough". I spent less than I earned. I made mostly low risk investments (with a handful of high risk investments). I consistently did those behaviors for many decades. I also got lucky that nothing bad happened to me.
tim333 2 days ago|||
I guess if you follow 'The Four Hour Work Week" but don't endlessly promote yourself through books, articles, podcasts etc?

By the way I think the Four Hour book is a bit phoney in that he makes out that's possible but was actually working like 16 hours a day building his own thing.

ghaff 2 days ago||
I guess MANY people are "famous" within some limited group. I suspect few here (much less more broadly) could name senior execs at the majority of large companies who are mostly wealthy by any reasonable measure.
silexia 3 days ago||
The four hour workweek was inspirational for me starting my own business in 2009. My business now employs 250 full time people and helps thousands of clients. I remember HN back then was all entrepreneurs like me and everyone was excited about the free market. I feel like now a lot of people in countries with too much government regulations are here and are downers to people who want to build their own thing.

This post is on the money. Being wealthy has almost all of the benefits of being famous.

aleph_minus_one 3 days ago||
> I remember HN back then was all entrepreneurs like me and everyone was excited about the free market. I feel like now a lot of people in countries with too much government regulations are here and are downers to people who want to build their own thing.

Since I am perhaps such a "downer person" who lives in such a country: what should such people then do?

silexia 3 days ago||
If you are an entrepreneur and a creative thinker, you absolutely should be a part of this community.

If you are a socialist who believes all business success is just luck and people who earn riches are inherently bad, you probably would like Reddit better.

brap 3 days ago||
>My business now employs 250 full time people

You sure about that?

silexia 3 days ago||
CoalitionTechnologies.com
AaronAPU 3 days ago||
Interesting read. In modern life almost everyone experiences at least a brief if perhaps isolated/niche version of fame. We are just so heavily connected in so many different networks, it just statistically is likely to happen at some point.

It is a mixed bag for sure, but in terms of risk/reward it is best to have an accurate understanding of both sides so you can make damn sure you are optimizing for the right thing.

cafard 1 day ago||
Would it comfort him to know that when I think of "Tim" in an HN context, I think of Tim Bray?
lateforwork 3 days ago||
He didn't mention one of the biggest reasons for not becoming famous: you'll have less room for mistakes. Take Scott Adams, the Dilbert cartoonist, as an example. He made some racist remarks, a mistake he could’ve recovered from if he wasn’t famous. But because he is, he’s now marked for life, and there's no do-over.
Aurornis 3 days ago||
I don’t think that’s an accurate summary of his situation. He didn’t just make a single comment that marked him for life. He’s been doubling down for years and seems to be constantly running head-first into drama.

I didn’t have any opinions on his as a person other than enjoying some of his comics years ago. Then he started showing up in Twitter debates over and over again and there’s no erasing years of bizarre claims and statements from his public opinion. He’s definitely embracing his fame as a platform to push those views, not suffering victimization for one mistake years ago.

lateforwork 3 days ago||
Yeah, Scott Adams may not be a good example for the point I was trying to make, which is: Being under the public eye—all the time—has to be one of the top reasons to not be famous. The cost of any mistake is much higher when you are famous.

Another reason is to have normal interactions with other people. If you are famous you can't have normal interactions because you're treated with deference.

aleph_minus_one 3 days ago|||
> Take Scott Adams, the Dilbert cartoonist, as an example. He made some racist remarks, a mistake he could’ve recovered from if he wasn’t famous. But because he is, he’s now marked for life, and there's no do-over.

From my echo chamber, I would rather claim that by these "politically incorrect" remarks and the controversies following it, he rather got a second wave of fans.

riazrizvi 3 days ago|||
Doomed for life, lol. The point of putting yourself out there is to show the world who you are, so you can connect with the right people. He showed the world a bit more, and better targeted his group of people. I bet there are plenty of people that still connect with him.
bhaak 3 days ago|||
Recent examples rather show that you might be marked for life but most people don’t care how racist you are.
thunderfork 3 days ago|||
I disagree with this framing, but I do think it's a relevant example - being famous seems to change the math on "changing your mind" for some people.

If Scott Adams had said some racist things at a work dinner, gotten written up, maybe he'd have moved past it... but now being Controversial™ is a core part of his brand, he's doubled down and doubled down...

knorker 3 days ago|||
Uh, no. Scott Adams is not a one-mistake person. This is a years-and-years thing.

You're really rewriting history, here.

I have no problems forgiving people for mistakes, but no this is absolutely not one of those cases.

postflopclarity 3 days ago|||
> he’s now marked for life, and there's no do-over.

sincere apologies, show of remorse, and substantially + genuinely changing the toxic behaviors goes a long way. there are several celebrities who have done "unforgivable" things and yet been forgiven by the public. the problem is that the kind of person liable to make such remarks is not the kind of person likely to do some introspection to realize they're being a terrible person.

lateforwork 3 days ago|||
Yes, you can do some repair, but the point is, it is much harder if you're famous. Being under the public eye—all the time—has to be one of the top reasons to not be famous.
tim333 3 days ago|||
Scott Adams position was kind of he'd done nothing wrong and would keep on doing it.
ben_w 3 days ago|||
> He made some racist remarks, a mistake he could’ve recovered from if he wasn’t famous.

My knowledge of the USA is imperfect. Certain stereotypes of the USA from the perspective of Americans do make it across the Atlantic to here. Are they correct or incorrect when they say the worse part of Thanksgiving is having to meet the racist in-laws?

Unless that stereotype is completely invented (and I accept that it might be, after all the UK had Boris Johnson), then "could've" doesn't imply "would've".

ljlolel 3 days ago|||
Dude did not just make one racist comment. I’ve read some of his books and they’re dripping with racism. He’s been consistently racist for decades and still is.
NotGMan 3 days ago|||
You're projecting. He is not marked for life: it's YOU who thinks he is.

Not him. He doesn't care what some clown online thinks of him.

lateforwork 3 days ago||
Did you notice he lost his source of income? Maybe it is not just me!
senshan 3 days ago||
Did it impact his quality of life? How?
watwut 3 days ago||
I mean common. The supposed marked for life people are coming back again and again. Even or especially when the supposed mistake is genuine ideological convinction they are actively propagating.

Adams mistaken remarks included holocaust denial.

KellyCriterion 3 days ago||
I always found Zenhabits.net muuuuch more inspiring than Tim Ferriss

Yes, I even hvae his 4h-work-week-book on the shelf

why-o-why 3 days ago|
Wow, I thought his first book was insufferable, but I've never read his blog: after reading the first half, that's just who this guy is. The structure he outlines seems so alien to me, and out of touch. People get lucky then think their luck really isn't luck, and then the just swallow their own tail. He's created lifestyle porn for impressionable young men who will never have his luck. I think he's got a good grift. Good for him, he won.

It's raining downvotes!

actionfromafar 3 days ago|
It's raining men! And downvotes from them!
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