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Posted by rbanffy 2 days ago

CO2 batteries that store grid energy take off globally(spectrum.ieee.org)
363 points | 303 commentspage 4
calmbonsai 1 day ago|
I ain't got time for this. Give me a paper, some numbers, and a plant flow diagram.
reader9274 1 day ago||
Thunderf00t!! Get in here!
idiotsecant 1 day ago||
We desperately need mass energy storage. Everyone gets excited about renewable generation, but it is counterproductive without investing 5x-10x what we spend on generation in improved transmission and storage. It would be better to build 1/10th the amount of solar we do and pair it with appropriate energy storage than it is to just build solar panels. This is a crisis that almost nobody seems to talk about but is blindingly obvious when you look at socal energy price maps. The physics simply doesn't work without storage!!
scotty79 1 day ago||
"First, a compressor pressurizes the gas from 1 bar (100,000 pascals) to about 55 bar (5,500,000 pa). Next, a thermal-energy-storage system cools the CO2 to an ambient temperature. Then a condenser reduces it into a liquid that is stored in a few dozen pressure vessels, each about the size of a school bus. The whole process takes about 10 hours, and at the end of it, the battery is considered charged.

To discharge the battery, the process reverses. The liquid CO2 is evaporated and heated. It then enters a gas-expander turbine, which is like a medium-pressure steam turbine. This drives a synchronous generator, which converts mechanical energy into electrical energy for the grid. After that, the gas is exhausted at ambient pressure back into the dome, filling it up to await the next charging phase."

vaylian 1 day ago|
And I suppose the whole thing is a closed system? Which means, none of the CO2 would be released to the outside?
stubish 1 day ago|||
Yes. If the CO2 was just released you would have to pay the energy cost to extract it from the atmosphere again.
scotty79 1 day ago|||
Not intentionally during normal operation. I'm sure those things are gonna leak like hell, but still, it's just CO2 so it's not as bad.
mapt 1 day ago||
> The problem is that even the best new grid-scale storage systems on the market—mainly lithium-ion batteries—provide only about 4 to 8 hours of storage.

This isn't the first time I've seen this sort of claim this week about batteries.

If you're a journalist writing these words, stop doing that, and consider your life choices. Ask your boss for tuition assistance to put you through a 7th grade summer-school science class on matter and energy.

If you're a journalist writing these words in an ostensibly technical engineering journal? Christ. I don't even know where to begin.

seydor 1 day ago||
More blowing up than taking off
ycui1986 1 day ago||
no mentioning of storage overhead? how much energy being wasted for each charging and discharging cycle?
chickenbig 1 day ago|
https://energydome.com/co2-battery/ states 75% efficient.
standardUser 1 day ago||
I've been waiting for large-scale molten salt/rock batteries to take off. They've existed at utility scale for years but are still niche. They're not especially responsive and I imagine a facility to handle a mass amount of molten salt is not the easiest/cheapest thing to build.

This sounds better in every way.

klustregrif 1 day ago||
> And in 2026, replicas of this plant will start popping up across the globe.

> We mean that literally. It takes just half a day to inflate the bubble. The rest of the facility takes less than two years to build and can be done just about anywhere there’s 5 hectares of flat land.

Gotta love the authors comitment to the bit. Wow, only half a day you say? And then just between 1 to 2 years more? Crazy.

pjc50 1 day ago|
After the five years of planning approvals and grid connection approvals, of course.
readthenotes1 2 days ago|
Does pure-ish CO2 have advantages over regular air or the freon-like substance used in air conditioning?

How much energy us used to purify and maintain the CO2?

ajb 1 day ago||
These days CO2 is actually quite commonly used in air-conditioners as a refrigerant, R-744. Fluorinated gases like Freon are being phased out due to being even worse for global warming.
mark-r 1 day ago||
I thought it was ozone depletion, not greenhouse effects, that led to the fluorinated gas phaseout?
ajb 1 day ago||
The original ones yes. They are already banned - but the next generation of fluorinated refrigerants are apparently ok for the ozone layer but have a greenhouse effect. That's my understanding anyway, I'm far from an expert.

Edited to add: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kigali_Amendment has some information on this.

analog31 1 day ago|||
It's easy to liquefy, so it has a density advantage over air, and would be bad if released but not super bad.
3eb7988a1663 1 day ago||
Suffocation seems like the most relevant concern in the event of a catastrophic leak.
1123581321 1 day ago||
It is a necessary risk. Oxygen is dangerous when heat is involved, and its low critical point is harder to work with than co2.
cogman10 1 day ago||
It's pretty cheap to acquire a boatload of and, assuming you don't get it directly from burning fossil fuels, there's really no environmental harms of it leaking into the atmosphere. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage

zahlman 1 day ago||
> CCS could have a critical but limited role in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.[6] However, other emission-reduction options such as solar and wind energy, electrification, and public transit are less expensive than CCS and are much more effective at reducing air pollution. Given its cost and limitations, CCS is envisioned to be most useful in specific niches. These niches include heavy industry and plant retrofits.[8]: 21–24

> The cost of CCS varies greatly by CO2 source. If the facility produces a gas mixture with a high concentration of CO2, as is the case for natural gas processing, it can be captured and compressed for USD 15–25/tonne.[66] Power plants, cement plants, and iron and steel plants produce more dilute gas streams, for which the cost of capture and compression is USD 40–120/tonne CO2.[66]

... And then for this usage, presumably you'd have to separate the CO2 from the rest of the gas.

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