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Posted by walterbell 1 day ago

The gift card accountability sink(www.bitsaboutmoney.com)
117 points | 102 commentspage 2
kelnos 22 hours ago|
Oof. Of course Patrick is right that paying by gift card isn't always a scam, but I think less-technically-savvy people are better off just believing that it is. And hell, as a technically-savvy person, I will just believe that it is as well, because it's less effort to do so, and won't hurt me to believe that. If someone wants you to pay for something by gift card, find the same or a similar product somewhere else, where they'll take credit/debit cards, checks, cash, whatever is actually legal tender and is appropriate for the situation.

But from Patrick's description, it feels like the situations where it's (usually) not a scam are instances where paying by gift card is an option, not something the "seller" is pushing you hard to do, or even requiring you to do. That seems... okay? I personally would still pay with a credit card, but mayyyybe it's ok for someone who can't get a credit card to go the gift card route. But I would still be wary.

If you're dealing with an unbanked business that cannot take credit/debit cards or checks due to the legal climate around their business or product, then you probably already know what you're getting yourself into. (But still, bit of a red flag if they don't accept cash or even cryptocurrencies, as much as I find those scammy as well.)

> The people of the United States, through their elected representatives and the civil servants who labor on their behalf, intentionally exempt gift cards from the Reg E regime in the interest of facilitating commerce.

This sort of phrasing about things kinda annoys me. Yes, "through their elected representatives...", technically true, but "the people of the United States", no, not really so much. I'm sure most people don't even know about these sorts of differences, and I'm sure the majority of people who are in favor of these sorts of protections on credit/debit cards would want them to apply to gift cards as well.

The problem with this sort of phrasing implies that the American people actively chose this, or even had any choice in the matter. We are limited in the political options that are put before us; we don't get a big menu of policy positions, check off the ones we like, and then a politician appears that matches all our preferences. Some people might -- very reasonably! -- prioritize other policy positions over gift card protection regulation, even if they want the latter as well.

LorenPechtel 12 hours ago|
It comes down to who initiates it.

I've got some gift cards sitting here--her health insurance has rewards for doing certain things, there's no way to get them as cash but you can buy gift cards for certain stores. Nothing scammy about it but I'm annoyed Amazon isn't an option because simply dumping them into my Amazon account would be the easiest solution.

bsder 1 day ago||
If I were the AARP, I'd go further.

"Don't buy gift cards. Full stop."

The general scamminess around gift cards is far too high from all angles.

Anyone asking you to pay them in gift cards is a problem. The gift card processors have all manner of ways to preserve the float by flagging "fraud" in order to suspend your gift card until you waste time and give them personal information. The company behind your gift card can go bankrupt (see: Bed, Bath and Beyond and Fry's). And, finally, as we found from Apple, even redeeming a card can cause you problems.

Give cash. In spite of some hoity-toity nitwits who consider cash to be gauche for gifts, at no point in my life have I ever be disappointed to be given cash.

exmadscientist 1 day ago|
> In spite of some hoity-toity nitwits who consider cash to be gauche for gifts, at no point in my life have I ever be disappointed to be given cash.

If you are one of those people afraid to give cash, here's what you do: go to the bank and ask for fresh bills. (You can also iron them yourself, I think.) I know of absolutely no one who would turn their nose at a fresh, crisp $100 bill, and it's not like $20s or $50s are much worse even if the $100 is king. They're just really satisfying when they're brand new.

Trust me, no one will complain.

Ekaros 1 day ago|||
From European perspective preference really is 5x20>2x50>1x100.

Both 50 and 100 euro bills are less desirable and often harder to spend.

bluGill 1 day ago|||
when my boss gives me money that is taxable and requires paperwork to ensure they are paid. My boss can give a gift card for small amount though (small is important)
stevage 1 day ago||
> . Paysafe, for example, is a publicly traded company with thousands of employees, the constellation of regulatory supervision you’d expect, and a subsidiary Openbucks which is designed to give businesses the ability to embed Pay Us With A Cash Voucher in their websites/invoices/telephone collection workflows.

Fascinating footnote.

cortesoft 1 day ago|
I thought so as well. It also confuses me the more I think about it… it seems like they have all of the things a normal bank has, so why isn’t it just a bank? What is preventing them from just offering a bank account to people who are traditionally unbanked?
VikingCoder 1 day ago||
Just out of curiosity, what happens when you buy a gift card for Toys R Us or Red Lobster or K-Mart, and then the company goes out of business?
CamelCaseName 1 day ago|
A date is given and then after that, the gift cards are worthless.
devinprater 1 day ago||
A ton of studies colleges/universities/corporations do on blind people give gift cards as payment. Usually $20 or so for a good 40 minutes of time.
analogpixel 1 day ago||
> The American Association of Retired People (AARP, an advocacy non-profit for older adults) has paid for ads on podcasts I listen to. The ad made a claim which felt raspberry-worthy (in service of an important public service announcement), which they repeat in writing: Asking to be paid by gift card is always a scam.

>Of course it isn’t. Gift cards are a payments rail, and an enormous business independently of being a payments rail. Hundreds of firms will indeed ask you to pay them on gift cards!

That’s where I stopped reading. The author seems more interested in being contrarian for clicks than in giving practical advice. AARP is right here: being asked to pay by gift card is a major red flag, and unless you know the company personally, it’s time to walk away.

pjc50 1 day ago||
Patrick very carefully declined to give examples of such legitimate yet debanked businesses. Presumably because they're all grey market stuff that sets off a whole other "wait, is that legal?" conversation.

I have never seen a legitimate business asking for payment in gift cards. I've encountered the traditional tradesmen offering discounts for cash, though.

Edit: I think he may actually be talking about businesses accepting payments in their own gift cards, which is so obvious that it's easy to forget. It's not a scam when Apple ask you to pay in Apple gift cards. It's just the only non scam such case.

masfuerte 1 day ago|||
Apple don't ask you to pay in Apple gift cards. They give you the option, but they are perfectly happy with a credit card.
nlawalker 1 day ago||||
If “Apple” asks you to pay with Apple gift cards, they’re not Apple, and it is most definitely a scam.
cortesoft 1 day ago||||
I don’t think he is talking about businesses that accept payment in other gift cards… he has a footnote explaining the type of business he is talking about.
mindslight 1 day ago|||
I've used 3rd party retail gift cards to pay for consumer VPN service, which is only "grey market" because privacy is often criminalized. But I still 100% agree with what the AARP is saying. This is one of those things that sure, there is technically an exception, but by the time you get to the level of knowing enough to know when that exception applies, you end up agreeing with the common advice.
turtletontine 1 day ago|||
I’m the kind of nerd who enjoys the surprising nitty gritty details, so I enjoyed the rest of the article and I’d recommend people read it.

But I agree with you: the AARP is 100% right to be running PSAs like this. I’d be curious to hear more about how a shadow economy like this would/would not help unbanked people, which he implies but did not describe at all. But it certainly doesn’t change the point that gift cards are an effective vehicle for fraud, and anytime someone asks to pay you (or especially you to pay them) in gift cards… your scam senses should tingle.

aschla 1 day ago|||
Agreed. It's more practical to tell seniors that all gift card requests are scams rather than teaching them to identify warning signs, since legitimate gift card payments are so rare.
WorkerBee28474 1 day ago|||
The author is an expert in the field of payments. What you call "being contrarian" is better called "speaking the truth".
jawns 1 day ago|||
I would call it "splitting hairs," which experts tend to do.

The practical reality is acknowledged at the end of the post.

Even if, technically speaking, using gift cards as a payments instrument is not a scam 100% of the time, anyone but a non-expert should behave as if it's 100%.

burnto 1 day ago||||
Author works in payments industry which issues and accepts gift cards, benefits from the lack of consumer protections, and incidentally doesn’t make any revenue on cash payments.
analogpixel 1 day ago||||
Is he an expert in the field of old people being scammed out of lots of money? Telling non tech-savvy people that it's ok to listen to the nice man on the phone and send him a lot of gift cards?
WorkerBee28474 1 day ago||
Who do you think the article's readers are? Random people? No, it's explicitly for people who are interested in both tech and finance.
salawat 1 day ago|||
I am also an expert in the field of payments. The only thing that makes gift cards stand out from other transaction media is there are many fewer guardrails around them money movement wise.

I'd pretty much back up AARP on this one. Asking for payment by gift card should in the majority of cases put one on guard.

jdlshore 1 day ago||
The article wasn’t about the AARP. That was just the hook. The article is about what you just said: there are many fewer guardrails, and why.
burnto 1 day ago|||
Yes the whole essay was premised on this dumb little sleight of hand. It’s disingenuous.

AARP isn’t telling fibs. It’s giving sound advice.

The only legit use of a gift card is when you’re redeeming that gift card directly with the issuer. No business is going to request or require that you do that.

scrollaway 1 day ago||
The world is full of people who, like you, seek any reason to not listen or read interesting things in favour of doing just about anything else. You don’t win a prize for being part of that group — at best, you saved as much time as it took you to write that comment. In exchange you are likely poorer for it intellectually because Patrick’s writing has an exceptionally high signal to noise ratio, and that signal is one most are not privy to.

At no point did the article claim AARP was in the wrong for running those ads. But had you kept reading you’d maybe have understood that wasn’t the point nor the premise in the first place.

analogpixel 1 day ago||
I'm ok with you being superior to me in every way possible; I think I can live with that.
scrollaway 1 day ago||
In case it wasn't clear: I don't care what you do, I care that other people don't miss out on a good article because you flaunt your anti-intellectualism on HN.
nacozarina 1 day ago||
gift cards are one of those odd legal things with contraband-grade hazards, not worth it, I abstain
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1 day ago||
> very likely made it impossible for anyone at BigCo to reconstruct what happened to a particular gift card between checkout and most recent use.

Could I improve my own privacy posture by just buying myself gift cards, if I can't use cash? Or that's just pushing all the data that the store would get onto the gift card company?

citizenpaul 1 day ago||
Gift cards are one of the dumbest most brain-dead pieces of scam ever invented. With all kinds of restrictions that resemble "scrip" type payment systems. They only exist to increase a larger entities control over you.

Why take perfectly good cash and change it to something worse in every way? I cannot understand why so many people enthusiastically go out of their way to buy gift cards. Can you take my cash and convert it to something with the same function but with all kinds of restrictions and gotcha's? Sure no problem....

bigfishrunning 22 hours ago||
One use for them is to obfuscate my banking information. A few years ago, Sony leaked a ton of Playstation customer information. Since then, if I want to buy games from them, i buy a gift card from someone else, and then use the gift card. It adds a layer of indirection.
viraptor 10 hours ago|||
I can get gift cards for my groceries and fuel with a permanent 4% discount. I'm going to spend the whole amount there anyway - what wouldn't I use that path every time?
Nasrudith 15 hours ago||
Paranoia of the war on drugs is part of it as well. Some are afraid that kids with large sums of cash would spend it on drugs or alcohol and it is more difficult to barter giftcards for drugs.

Not a good reason but it is a real one I have heard.

tomjen3 1 day ago|
I am going to disagree with patio11 here. If someone asks you to pay with gift cards, its a scam.

Gift cards are the equivalent of buying dollars at 105 cents, but its not a scam, since everybody is upfront about the transaction.