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Posted by amarcheschi 1 day ago

Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position(en.agcm.it)
144 points | 128 commentspage 2
troupo 22 hours ago|
Of all issues they chose "poor advertisers can't get their hands on user data"
sonuhia 22 hours ago||
money laundering? a bribe? someone ink and track every single one of those dollars!
mainde 21 hours ago|
Don't you find it excessive to imply the above regarding a G7 country?
sonuhia 12 hours ago||
no, in the given context and dogma, it's just 'persons' all the way down ... and up ....

I'm just annoyed the HN kind is too retarded, which might be age related or not, to throw a better narrative at the rest of us.

You see, it's all "laissez faire" only until it isn't ... and that's becoming a little too obvious to the wrong people ... who are not among the staff but among those who sense and communicate opportunity ...

the last time something similar played out, nobody--the least the left or the greens or anyone considering themselves a fucking democrat or feynman-style anarchist--noticed the fake/posing devil in the details deliberately put on stage as a show of "pwowa" ... ... by those who only held it over multiple but rather individual instances ... the narrative which mostly left them out, .... "almost" went worse ... than history

wendgeabos 21 hours ago||
The government is everywhere prone to becoming the mafia.
concinds 22 hours ago||
> The Authority found the App Tracking Transparency (“ATT”) policy to restrict competition. [...]

> In particular, third-party app developers are required to obtain specific consent for the collection and linking of data for advertising purposes through Apple’s ATT prompt. However, such prompt does not meet privacy legislation requirements, forcing developers to double the consent request for the same purpose.

> The Authority established that the terms of the ATT policy are imposed unilaterally and harm the interests of Apple’s commercial partners. The terms were also found to be disproportionate to the achievement of the company’s stated data protection objectives.

They must think we're fucking stupid.

petcat 22 hours ago|
EU privacy regulations and the GDPR are a complete farce. You'll notice that the EU's own government websites are littered with cookie banners. They want the data just as bad as everybody else.

The goal was not in any way to protect privacy, but rather to extract rent from American tech companies.

wkat4242 14 hours ago|||
No the goal was to give users that want privacy an option to get it. Even the EU site allows users to say no to tracking. That's a good thing.
hnbad 20 hours ago|||
> They want the data just as bad as everybody else.

Sure. Let's look at the main site: https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en

Big cookie banner. Wait. What's that. It's not a modal? And a big "Accept only essential cookies" button with the same visual weight as the "Accept all cookies" button? Surely everybody does it this way because it's literally what EU law requires - surely nobody would try to trick people into clicking "accept all" by hiding the alternative behind multiple layers of opaque options and checkboxes.

So let's look at what data they are harvesting: https://european-union.europa.eu/cookies_en

Technical cookies... functional cookies... boring - most of these are just for handling logins and preferences. Ooh, analytics! But what's Europa Analytics? Let's check: https://european-union.europa.eu/europa-analytics_en

Oh, they are not only opt-in, they even respect DNT headers. And they're masking the IP addresses before processing them further. Damn, they must really want that data just as bad as "everybody else".

primer42 21 hours ago||
Apple makes, what, $1 billion (with a B) in profit every day.

So this is nothing to them.

groundzeros2015 21 hours ago|
What about profit in Italy?

Relative amounts don’t make it right or wrong.

nicole_express 22 hours ago||
I'm so glad they're protecting us from Apple (checking document) making it too hard to collect personal data for advertising. Thanks, Italy
znpy 22 hours ago|
It really depends if apple is making it hard to collect data that apple itself can collect with blanket permissions from users.

In that case yes, apple is abusing its dominant position and is competing unfairly with other companies. And they must be fined for that.

Apple does advertising too: https://ads.apple.com

monocularvision 21 hours ago|||
Apple is allowed to share data among its apps. Third-party app developers are allowed to share data within their apps. If third-party developers want to share data with _other_ third-party developers (aka the advertising ID), then they need the explicitly request permission. It is fairly straightforward.
nicole_express 22 hours ago||||
Nothing about unfair competition is mentioned in the press release, so I can only assume this wasn't a significant factor in the competition authority's decision. Unfortunately, I can't read Italian, so I'm not sure if this is brought up in the 199-page full text of the order.
dns_snek 22 hours ago|||
The press release is.. not great. The summary document linked at the bottom of the page is written in English and makes it clear that the fine was issued due to their double standards:

> xii. As a matter of fact, revenues from App Store services increased, in terms of higher commissions collected from developers through the platform; likewise, Apple’s advertising division, which is not subject to the same stringent rules, ultimately benefited from increased revenues and higher volumes of intermediated ads

[1] https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf

amarcheschi 21 hours ago|||
It's way too long for me, but just skimping I read that

1)apple was reported to the authority by meta, the authority then started investigating (and this is honestly extremely funny)

2)apple says that att prompt is enough to work as a gdpr consent form, meta didn't agree with this. The authority after a long investigation found apple was in wrongdoing because the att prompt breaks some rules on I don't understand what and so is not gdpr compliant - the only thing I understood is that it doesn't provide enough informations to the end user

3)authority also notes that this prompt was imposed by Apple without input from third parties, thus distorting the market because the same prompt is not required for apple's own apps

concinds 21 hours ago||||
I wonder where this narrative came from. It's simply not true. Third-party apps with ATT denied have the same data access as Apple does.
f6v 22 hours ago||
I don't download any apps anymore, so not very informed on the state of alternative app stores in EU. I decided to Google where I can find those. One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website. It's a company with questionable ethics and business practices that tries to sell you "antivirus" and "decluttering" app. So I'll pass.

But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now? Something that's used by more than just a couple of people? Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer).

Terretta 20 hours ago||
> are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now

"Always has been": Setapp. Very interesting model.

Readily recommend devs subscribing to this collection, but non-devs as well if you're into "there's an app for that" and fatigued with IAP.

https://setapp.com/

brendoelfrendo 21 hours ago||
> One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website.

Yikes, Google results are bad these days! They seem to focus on Mac applications, not iOS app store alternatives.

> But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now?

Yes, the main one I am familiar with is AltStore: https://altstore.io

However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan, so you have to be using an iOS account with the region set to one of those two places and be physically located there in order to install the app store. Not something that's easy to experiment with for people in the USA to see how the other half lives.

> Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer).

I don't really see an angle for the EU to do much milking here. Actually I think the AltStore founders are Americans? So they seem to be reaping the benefits of EU and Japanese legislation, remotely.

troupo 18 hours ago||
> However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan

Also: even though Apple is explicitly told not to censor these alternative stores, Apple effectively does this through notarization

nradov 22 hours ago|
I don't necessarily disagree with this ruling, but it's sad that EU governments now take in more revenue from fining US tech companies than from taxing local tech companies. An entire continent is on the path of becoming parasites instead of builders. Will they ever adopt a growth and abundance agenda again?
amarcheschi 22 hours ago||
Maybe companies that break eu/local rules could respect the law
arpinum 22 hours ago||
Hard to respect vague laws. Apple can't read the regulators' minds and figure out their interpretations, or instantly pivot when regulators change their minds.
dns_snek 21 hours ago|||
You don't need to read minds to know that abusing your dominant market position in one market to disadvantage your competitors in a different market (advertising) has a very high likelihood of breaking competition rules. That's a textbook example of anti-competitive behavior.

When did they change their minds, can you provide a link to a previous regulatory decision which approved this behavior?

jltsiren 21 hours ago||||
All laws are inherently vague. Some actions are clearly legal and some are clearly illegal. Between them, there is a gray zone, where it can be impossible to say in advance what's legal and what isn't.

If you are an amoral profit maximizer, like the average publicly traded company, it's often rational to take risks by entering the gray zone. Sometimes nobody cares that you do that. Sometimes you manage to get a favorable court ruling. And sometimes the expected gains outweigh the eventual fines.

It's almost always easy to comply with the laws by playing it safe. But shareholders don't like that.

Steve16384 21 hours ago|||
So, like being a citizen then?
geon 20 hours ago|||
> EU governments now take in more revenue from fining US tech companies than from taxing local tech companies

Do you have a source for that, or did you just make it up?

jncfhnb 22 hours ago|||
If the US tech companies stop behaving this way, maybe.
nradov 22 hours ago|||
Sure. I'm not here to defend bad behavior by US tech companies. Just pointing out the sad contrast in terms of lack of growth and innovation by EU tech companies.
tacker2000 22 hours ago|||
How is the EU tech company lack of growth related to fining companies for not obeying the law?

Yes, Europe is a laggard in tech, but I don't see any relationship here. Even if they wouldn't fine these companies, EU would still lag, and now that they are fining them, EU companies are not at an advantage, nor growing faster.

wkat4242 14 hours ago||||
Europe just doesn't have the "move fast and break things" mentality because we don't want things like privacy broken. At least not without the user's unpressured choice which is what GDPR is all about.

If we allowed the same kind of unrestricted development we'd have more money and growth but we'd be just like the US. Which I personally don't want for sure. I'm glad to be living here. It's not all about money and economy.

hnbad 20 hours ago|||
The US is in the middle of a recession if you exclude the AI bubble. Even if you include the AI bubble it's barely avoiding stagflation. I'm not sure "growth and innovation" accurately serves as a contrast between the US and EU tech companies right now.
vnchr 22 hours ago|||
Or the US tech companies could abandon EU markets
piva00 21 hours ago|||
They could, it could be a blessing for competitors in the EU.

But they won't because the EU is a huge market and money speaks, while that happens they need to comply with the laws. Stop breaking the laws and you stop being fined, it's pretty simple for multi-billion/low-trillion market cap companies, innit?

lenkite 21 hours ago||||
It would be terrific if this happens. Can give room for alternatives to grow in the EU. Even the rest of the world would love it.

So far only China has managed alternatives - and only thanks to govt exclusion. US behemoths just eat everyone else up - even in the global South.

linhns 19 hours ago|||
I’d love alternatives that work well, but having used the said Chinese ones, I got no choice but to stick to the behemoths. Telegram may eat a bit into the messaging dominance, but that’s it.
tt24 20 hours ago|||
I’m sorry to disappoint you but the EU is unable to create any usable alternatives to US tech chiefly due to lack of SWE talent (among other things). Anyone remotely competent sees the 40k senior SWE salaries offered by European tech companies and immediately crawls through glass just to work at a mid-tier company in the Northern California area of the United States.
lenkite 20 hours ago|||
Once they pay "modern" US health insurance (esp after a layoff) and also need to raise a family, the vast majority will crawl back through lava.
tt24 20 hours ago||
Still no - PPP (that’s after expenses such as food, healthcare, housing, etc) is significantly higher in the United States.
lenkite 19 hours ago||
I believe that would be true (after food, housing, healthcare, taxes, child-care, etc) only for a very narrow band of senior SWE's. And you are still not considering employment protection. And for junior or mid-level SWE's, not at all true for the overwhelming majority.
tt24 19 hours ago||
This is true not only for SWEs, but for the median worker in the United States.
wkat4242 11 hours ago|||
Huh no. I'd never work in the US. I won't even visit there as long as the current regime is in place (and the mandatory social media declaration, which I believe is more bipartisan).

I even moved to a lower wage country in Europe even to a pay cut, money isn't everything. Quality of life is. I won't live in a country that is anti-LGBT and with such a culture glorifying toxic masculinity. And at the same time giving a huge middle finger to the world by having the most polluting country in the world per capita quit climate change reduction efforts.

I don't think you understand how badly Trump has destroyed the reputation and goodwill of the US to the rest of the world in just one year. Everyone I know is actively trying to disconnect from US products and services (though admittedly I am in more activist circles)

And salaries here are a lot higher than that. Even here in a lower-wage country. Also, I don't need a car where I live which scraps a whole category of expenses, healthcare is free and I have protections in case I get fired.

hnbad 20 hours ago|||
You must believe that US companies are trying to enter and stay in hostile markets out of the sheer kindness of their hearts. Have you considered that not being present in the second biggest market by GDP may actually be a massive liability by creating a massive opportunity for competitors that will be far better adapted to stricter regulatory conditions? You could just as well advise US car manufacturers to stick to building cars like the Cybertruck and ignore markets that consider it unsafe.
epolanski 22 hours ago||
US tech companies already avoid paying jackshit by moving to Ireland.

So apple Ireland sells services and devices to apple italy on which the profit is all in Ireland.