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Posted by giuliomagnifico 12/22/2025

The biggest CRT ever made: Sony's PVM-4300(dfarq.homeip.net)
281 points | 186 comments
jsheard 12/22/2025|
Don't sleep on that Shank Mods video linked at the end, it's insane that he managed to pull that off.

He also made a second video (not linked) which shows off more of the actual hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgkw3uu19V8

gbil 12/22/2025||
Personal anecdotes from my early mid teen years

1. Touching the circuit board on the back of the CRT tube by mistake trying to troubleshoot image issues, “fortunately” it was a “low” voltage as it was a B&W monitor….

2. Throwing a big big stone to an abandoned next to the trashcan CRT TV while I had it placed normally because it didn’t break when I threw it facing up and the next thing I remember after opening my eyes which I closed from the bang was my friends who were further down the road looking at me as it I were a ghost since big big chunks for the CRT glass flew just right next to me.

CRTs were dangerous in many aspects!

EDIT: I meant to reply to the other thread with the dangers of CRTs

zackmorris 12/22/2025|||
I'll never forget the feeling of the whoosh when I was working as a furniture mover in the early 2000s and felt the implosion when a cardboard box collapsed and dumped a large CRT TV face-down on the driveway, blowing our hair back. When the boss asked what happened to the TV, I said it fell, and our lead man (who had set it on the box) later thanked me for putting it so diplomatically.

That was nothing compared to the time the CAT scan machine fell face down off the lift gate on the back of the delivery truck because our driver pushed the wrong button and tipped it instead of lowering it, but I missed the flack from that because I was on a move somewhere thankfully. Afterwords he was forever known as the quarter million dollar man.

jama211 12/22/2025||
Oof, a whole CAT scanner is insane! Did insurance cover it?
zackmorris 12/30/2025||
Oops just saw this! I never heard, last time I saw it, it was sitting busted up against a wall with blankets thrown over it. The warehouse usually ate breakages because that was cheaper than insurance overhead in the long run.
merpkz 12/22/2025||||
I still have a piece of glass in back of the palm of my right hand. Threw a rock at an old CRT and it exploded, after a couple of hours I noticed a little blood coming out of that part of hand. Many, many years later was doing xray for a broken finger and doctor asked what is that object doing there? I shrugged, doc said, well it looks like it's doing just fine, so might as well stay there. How lucky I am to have both eyes.
keitmo 12/22/2025||||
> Touching the circuit board on the back of the CRT tube by mistake trying to troubleshoot image issues, “fortunately” it was a “low” voltage as it was a B&W monitor….

My father ran his own TV repair shop for many years. When I was a teen he helped me make a Tesla coil out of a simple oscillator and the flyback transformer from a scrapped TV. It would make a spark 2 or 3 inches long and could illuminate a florescent light from several feet away. It definitely produced higher voltage than normally exists in a TV, but not orders of magnitude more. The high voltage circuits in CRTs are dangerous as hell.

rayiner 12/22/2025||||
In high school we used them as a high voltage source to make lifters: https://youtu.be/jrfBrrDfdEA
sevensor 12/23/2025||
My high school electronics teacher had a screwdriver that was permanently welded to the terminals of a capacitor he’d pulled from a TV set. “This is why you use a resistor to discharge one of these things,” he said.
rayiner 12/23/2025||
TIL. I always used a screwdriver to discharge those capacitors lol.
vl 12/22/2025||||
It was high voltage but low current. I touched high-voltage circuit in the back of TV accidentally while poking in it as a teen, and while it was quite unpleasant, all it did was burn a hole in the skin of my finger. It eventually healed.
s0rce 12/22/2025|||
I used the CRT HV powersupply to make a little electronic hovering thing back in high school http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
giancarlostoro 12/22/2025|||
What's wild is this TV was not mass produced, which added to the cost, plus the shipping costs. Not only did he get the TV but he got the premium model too, I think Sony intentionally gave the restaurant that model so they could take some marketing photos, and sure enough, that was it.
yftsui 12/22/2025|||
Sony didn’t give it to the restaurant; instead the restaurant purchased it during Japan’s economic boom.
giancarlostoro 12/23/2025||
Something feels off about that, somehow it was the only photo of the TV. Its like if he was the only one interested in a big TV?
Animats 12/23/2025||
Beyond some size, antique items become less valuable, because of the sheer headaches of moving and storing them. This thing qualifies. Antique Teletype machines are not very expensive. People have bought Linotype machines for $200. Trying to find a home for a locomotive is very tough. (When the Pacific Locomotive Society lost their lease at Hunter's Point Naval Station, they had a big problem. Most of their fleet is now stored at Brightside on the Niles Canyon Railway.)
tecleandor 12/23/2025|||
Like pianos. Unless they are very good, their value tends to go in the negative numbers with time, as you have to move them somehow.

In my parents place, an apartment in a second floor, there's an upright Yamaha that my dad bought in the late 70s or early 80s. I think they brought them in through the stairs, but like 10 years ago an elevator was added to the building lobby, and I don't think there is enough space to move it around. I think the piano will remain with the apartment forever :D

Macha 12/23/2025||
Pianos also have a shelf life. It’s usually a couple of decades depending on use and maintenance levels, but eventually maintaining it turns into just building a whole new piano in the same box
giancarlostoro 12/23/2025|||
I get the value over time, but the original store owner bought it when it was brand new, so I wonder if Sony didn't have a lot of sales even in Japan, and this one guy was the only one who had the money and that one Sony guy got insanely lucky it was exactly what they wanted. I'm trying to read between the lines of how the previous owner is describing it and the fact that this TV was so rare some people thought it was fake.
actionfromafar 12/23/2025||
It was sold to really few people. I must be really dense or have a bad day, but can you spell out exactly what you mean here?
actionfromafar 12/22/2025|||
I didn’t catch that in the video? The part about marketing photos in the restaurant?
giancarlostoro 12/23/2025||
I'm really trying to read between the lines of what the previous owner said really, mostly because there's no other photos of the TV, and it was so rare people thought it was a fake flex product. I have a feeling they sold to very very few people.
mercwear 12/22/2025|||
Link to the video where he goes to get the tv (diff channel, same creator): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfZxOuc9Qwk
HardwareLust 12/22/2025|||
Those two videos are the real story here.
mark-r 12/22/2025|||
The video was posted on HN a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42497093
huflungdung 12/22/2025||
[dead]
bane 12/22/2025||
Sometime in 2006 we bought a house and our realtor gave us a gift certificate for $2500 at Best Buy (weird, but...those were the days). A brand new, state of the art 720p DLP projection TV was just a hair under that - we still have it and it works great. But I had a couple dollars to burn off on the card.

I happened to have noticed that they were trying to clear out any remaining floor models of CRTs. One of them was an absolutely giant Samsung, memory says it was >34", but I'm not sure how big...with a sticker on it for, and I'll never forget this...$.72.

Soooo two big TVs for the price of one!

Long story short, we were moving out of that house, CRT tvs were long since obsolete and that TV hadn't even been turned on for at least 5 years. So we decided to throw it away. I had never picked it up before and had forgotten how heavy CRTs could be. I ended up having to get two friends to come help me move it to the curb, it was well over 250 lbs. The trash company also complained when they had to pick it up and had to make a return trip.

I kinda regret getting rid of it, but it was among the heaviest pieces of furniture in our house.

crims0n 12/22/2025|
> So we decided to throw it away.

Somewhere, a retro game enthusiast winced at reading that.

bane 12/23/2025||
Later me, a more retro game enthusiast, physically recoiled while typing it if it makes any difference. :(
lrvick 12/23/2025||
I have the second largest, and 25 others, hooked up in my garage, fed by a modular synth, a pc, retro consoles, and several DVD and VHS players. Would still probably trade it all for one of these.

CRTs are literally precision particle accelerators in glass vacuum tubes we mass produced and put in peoples homes just to electronically reproduce entertaining images, and there is not a factory left on earth that can make them anymore.

It is some of the wildest shit humans have ever done.

femto 12/23/2025|
This place claims to still be a manufacturer, with no plans to discontinue.

https://www.thomaselectronics.com/

Edit: Reddit claims that Thomas aren't really a CRT manufacturer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/1c9t5sf/company_...

lrvick 12/23/2025||
No tube manufacturers exist, though some refurbish old tubes and pair them with new electronics.
BubbleRings 12/22/2025||
If you like playing with old hardware, be aware that old CRTs have a gotcha that can getcha: they hold a charge that can shock you across the room, and they can hold that charge for weeks or more. Google how to discharge it before poking around in a CRT.
Scubabear68 12/22/2025||
When I was about 12 I got an old TV in my room which I of course decided to take apart to figure out how it worked.

I was VERY smart and of course unplugged the TV before doing anything.

My flat head screwdriver brushed against the wrong terminal in the back, I was literally thrown across the room several feet, and my flat head screw driver was no longer usable as the tip had deformed and slightly melted.

I later found an electronics book that had a footnote mentioning grounding out the tube before going near it…

nextaccountic 12/22/2025|||
How does an electric shock throws someone across the room? What's the mechanism for this push?

I know a shock can paralyze (by contracting the muscles) and it can burn (by joule effect) but never seen one push

db48x 12/23/2025|||
AC current paralyzes by alternately contracting and relaxing your muscles, 60 times per second. This tends to lock you in place because the electricity is a higher voltage than your nerves and overrides any command you send every 60th of a second. It could take you several minutes to die, and you will be suffering in pain and terror the whole time as you are unable to let go…

DC current jolts you “across the room“ by contracting your muscles all at once. Of course the exact effect depends on your posture; sometimes it just makes you stand upright or pull your arms in. This tends to disconnect you from the source of the electricity, limiting the damage. Note that if you cannot actually jump all the way across the room then the jolt probably can’t knock you all the way across the room either. If you fall over your head could end up pretty far away from where it started, though, and if you lose consciousness even for a little while then that can affect your perception too. It could certainly throw the screwdriver all the way across the room.

If you pay attention to the special effects that show up in movies and television you’ll soon realize that they simulate shocks by putting the actor in a harness and then pulling on it suddenly. This sudden movement away from the source of the “shock” stops looking very convincing when you notice that the movement starts at their torso rather than in their legs and arms.

nameless_me 12/23/2025|||
I have been electrocuted twice once as a kid (which I don't remember but my parents reminded me) and once as a teenager which I definitely remember. My country's voltage was 240 volts at 50 Hz. I remember screaming uncontrollably as the current flowed through my arm and chest but managed to drop the live wire. The floor was parquet: wood.
db48x 12/24/2025||
Ouch, that is lucky.

I remember putting some keys into an electrical socket when I was quite young. My hand must have bridged live and neutral, so the current only flowed from thumb to forefinger rather than through my chest to my feet. But it was accompanied by a flash of light and an arc that I saw as a forked tongue. I told my mom that it had bitten me :)

nextaccountic 12/23/2025|||
That's fascinating, thanks for taking the time to write this

Also, what an horrifying way to die

db48x 12/23/2025||
Agreed. I’m with Quark; I want to wake up in Heaven and have no idea how I got there.
LeoPanthera 12/23/2025||||
Typically it forces your leg muscles to contract as the current flows to ground and you literally kick yourself into the air.

Exact same thing happened to me as a child. I do not remember the event, but I do remember waking up on the other side of the room.

userbinator 12/22/2025|||
"by contracting the muscles"
preisschild 12/22/2025|||
Yeah the tube is essentially a large capacitor :P

I also learned electronics by shocking myself often

fennecbutt 12/23/2025|||
It's not the tube (which is just a chamber for an electron gun. It's the high voltage capacitors used to hold charge for the supply driving the electron gun.
userbinator 12/23/2025||
It's the tube itself which forms the capacitor. I'm not aware of any sets that used a separate capacitor across the final anode voltage.
nojvek 12/22/2025|||
You either learn by shocking yourself, or die trying.

The survival selection is real in electronics.

RedShift1 12/22/2025|||
Not just shock you across the room, but shock straight into your next life.
actionfromafar 12/22/2025||
So we are all in post-tube life?
macintux 12/22/2025|||
I have a vague recollection that my little cousin was nearly ended when he managed to destabilize the stand that a CRT was sitting on, and it fell just behind him, but I may be entirely hallucinating that memory.

Regardless, there are multiple ways old CRTs can cause great harm.

asciii 12/22/2025|||
My family bought our first one and we used it keep it on a carpet floor - boy was that an electrifying experience
addandsubtract 12/22/2025||
Same goes for your microwave.
vunderba 12/22/2025||
Somewhat related but back in my university days, I spent practically all my savings from a summer part-time job to buy a 21" Sony Trinitron CRT. I absolutely loved that thing, but at the end of each year I dreaded having to lug it home and then haul it back to the dorms again.

The elevators often didn’t work and climbing 10 flights of stairs while carrying a 70 lb (31kg) cube was brutal. It’s not often you buy a piece of electronics and get a complimentary workout regimen thrown in.

KineticLensman 12/22/2025||
Some time in the early 1990s I worked with a Macintosh of some variety that had a massively heavy CRT display. It was a real bummer when we were asked to do offsite customer demos, but luckily my back and knees were young enough to carry it upstairs. In retrospect, this is probably why my boss took me to the demos, which was actually quite useful career-wise.
xp84 12/23/2025|||
In my own university days, I was once walking into the apartment building when some maintenance men called me over. (This building was part student housing and part normal families). They pointed me to a TV set in an apartment. Apparently a family had abandoned it. It was a big 27” or so set with some weird geometry problems, no visible brand, and menus exclusively in Chinese. Thankfully we had an elevator! I was pretty stoked despite the weird pincushion effects (maybe side effect of being imported from at least 100° of longitude away??) because our apartment’s only TV was a 13” which looked funny in a comically big living room.
random_ind_dude 12/23/2025||
Some CRTs had a button to degauss the display, to remove the distortion on the screen. You could also purchase a tool that could be used to degauss a CRT.
postalcoder 12/22/2025||
I think I’m legitimately traumatized by how heavy CRTs were. The memories of the pain carrying them induced is etched in my body.

I dont feel nostalgic in the least about them.

bob1029 12/22/2025||
I am nostalgic about their operational principles, but I was already willing to give these up for the convenience of an LCD panel circa 2003. We had a lot of LAN parties to attend back in those days.
canpan 12/23/2025|||
As another person going to LAN parties. I am nostalgic about many things. CRT screens and CRT TVs are not on that list!

SNES/N64 games might look a little better on them, but I take that over the downsides. I can also look longer and more comfortably at modern screens.

On the other hand my current desktop PC with a huge GPU and CPU cooler is not particularly carry friendly either..

xattt 12/22/2025|||
The draw of the LCD in the 2000s was the idea that the image you were seeing was a pixel-perfect representation of the creator’s intent.
smj-edison 12/22/2025||
Funny that—I'm literally using a shader on my SNES emulator to get a sense for how the graphics would look on a CRT!
xattt 12/22/2025||
I think it was a time before the vintage feels for CRTs really. Sure, there were greybeards naysaying the coming of the LCD due to motion artefacts and smearing but the rest of users just wanted something high-res and flicker-free.
bombcar 12/23/2025|||
It’s less the feels (though the glow from a CRT in a dark room is entirely different from an LED) and more that the games especially were designed for the bleed and flow that CRTs have.

It’s similar to how subpixel antialiasing really depends on the screen design and what order the colors are in.

The pixelated 8bit aesthetic is more reminiscent of early emulators in LCD than how it actually was “on hardware”.

smj-edison 12/25/2025||
Yeah—this was my rationale. My first game was Chrono Trigger, which the graphics are stunning for, so I was happy with chunky pixels. I started playing Earthbound though, and the graphics are much more underwhelming. The CRT shader has made it look a lot better though.
onli 12/23/2025|||
When LCDs arrived it was not only greybeards not liking them. I certainly wasn't old enough for that title - but for a while, CRT screens were just so much better! Those early panels (at least the ones I saw) were horrible, sooo slow, totally muted colors and minimal viewing angles.
rob74 12/22/2025||
It's fascinating that the biggest CRT ever made had a 43" diagonal, which is at the low end for modern flatscreen TVs. But yeah, I can see why the market for this beast was pretty limited: even with deinterlacing, SD content would have looked pretty awful when viewed from up close, so the only application I can think of was using it for larger groups of people sitting further away from the screen. And even for that, a projector was (probably?) the cheaper alternative...
plorg 12/22/2025||
In the late aughts I worked a summer at a company that was designing an articulating (flat screen) TV mount. I went with the engineers to one of the Intertek testing sessions. We wanted it to be rated for a 60" TV, but I was given the impression that the weight formulas they used for testing were based on CRT screens. The salesperson who came with us was giddy seeing the thing loaded up with 1000lb of steel plates and not giving way, but the actuators could not lift and our advertised rating was not more than 200lb.
_vqpz 12/22/2025|||
Even at just 43" it still weighed 450lbs. I bought a 27" CRT some years ago and even that was a nightmare to transport
RajT88 12/22/2025|||
I have one of those Sony WEGA CRT TV's, which were widescreen and even had HDMI.

https://www.mediacollege.com/equipment/sony/tv/kd/kd30xs955....

148 pounds! A total nightmare to get into our car and into our house.

WORTH IT.

qingcharles 12/22/2025||
I remember having the 36" version in ~1997. I wouldn't want to guess how much it weighed, it was insane. I remember how impressive it was watching the Fifth Element Laserdisc on it.
FuriouslyAdrift 12/22/2025||||
I had the first high-def Sonys in the US market. I worked at a high end audio video store in the mid 90s and they gave it to me cheap as they couldn't get rid of it.

https://crtdatabase.com/crts/sony/sony-kw-34hd1

Even at 34", the thing weighed 200lbs (plus the stand it came with). I lived in a 3rd floor walk up. I found out who my true friends were the day we brought it back from the store. I left that thing in the apartment when I moved. I bet it is still there to this day.

qingcharles 12/22/2025|||
I had the 40" version and I left it in the house when I got divorced. That thing was insane to move. Needed minimum three people to lift it.
NoiseBert69 12/22/2025|||
Most likely it's a central component of the buildings statics calculation meanwhile
rationalist 12/22/2025||
They put it on a floating surface, now it's the building's earthquake counterweight.
EvanAnderson 12/22/2025||||
I'd forgotten how heavy CRTs are. A local surplus auction has a really tempting 30's inch Sony CRT for sale cheap, but when I saw it was over 300lbs I had to pass on it.
dialogbox 12/22/2025|||
I remember I had a 27inch crt on my desk. The desk top bended after a humid rainy season so I had to fix it by adding multiple metal supports.
cm2187 12/22/2025||
A lot of those CRT screens had a pretty low refresh frequency, you were basically sitting in front of a giant stroboscope. That was particular bad for computer screens where you were sitting right in front of them. I think they pretty much all displayed at 30Hz. I can imagine how a gigantic screen can get pretty uncomfortable.
bob1029 12/22/2025|||
I recall a lot of people playing counterstrike at 640x480 to get at 100+hz refresh rates. The lower the resolution, the faster you can refresh. I don't recall the absolute limit but it would give the latest LCD gaming panels a serious run for their money.
utopcell 12/23/2025||
In the meanwhile, oled monitors can go to 480hz.
db48x 12/23/2025||
If you pay extra for that. Meanwhile _any_ CRT could trade off resolution for refresh rate across a fairly wide range. In fact the standard resolutions for monitors were all just individual points in a larger space of possibilities. They could change aspect ratio as well. This can be quite extreme. Consider the 8088 MPH demo from a few years back (<https://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-al...>). See the part near the end with the pictures of 6 of the authors? That video mode only had 100 lines, but scrunched up to make a higher resolution.
utopcell 12/23/2025|||
Well, we are discussing a CRT TV that was $40k new a life time ago, so perhaps the fact that it costs $599 to get a 480Hz OLED today is not a consideration. To the point though: it is a fallacy to believe that CRTs could arbitrarily shape their resolution. While the input signal could cover a wide range of possible resolutions and refresh rates depending on the bandwidth supported, the existence of apperture grilles or shadow masks imposed a fixed digital reality that limited the maximum possible resolution to much lower values than the typical 4k panels that we have today. The "pixels" didn't become larger on lower resolutions: they just covered more dots on the mask. We can get much better results today with scaling than we ever could on CRTs, as awesome a technology as they were 40 years ago.
db48x 12/26/2025||
Sure, but 99% of that cost was paying for the absurd physical dimensions of that particular television.

> The "pixels" didn't become larger on lower resolutions…

Strictly speaking, the CRT only had discrete lines not pixels. Within a line the color and brightness could change as rapidly or slowly as the signal source desired. It was in fact an analog signal rather than a digital one. This is why pixels in many display modes used by CRTs were rectangular rather than square.

> We can get much better results today with scaling than we ever could on CRTs…

I say it’s the other way around! No ordinary flat–panel display can emulate the rectangular pixels of the most common video modes used on CRTs because they are built with square pixels. You would have to have a display built with just the right size and shape of pixel to do that, and then it wouldn’t be any good for displaying modern video formats.

utopcell 12/27/2025||
Seems irrelevant to bring up cost for something that is streamline-priced today, but sure, let's move on.

> Strictly speaking, the CRT only had discrete lines not pixels.

The electron gun moves in an analog fashion, but when it hits the glass surface, it can only go through specific openings [1]. These openings are placed at a specific distance apart [2]. This distance specifies the horizontal, digital, max CRT resolution.

> No ordinary flat–panel display can emulate the rectangular pixels of the most common video modes used on CRTs because they are built with square pixels.

Today's panels have achieved "retina" resolution, which means that the human eye cannot distinguish individual pixels anymore. The rest is just software [3].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13bpgc8ZxTo

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_pitch#/media/File:CRT_mask...

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/emulation/comments/dixnso/retroarch...

numpad0 12/24/2025|||
Any CRT given its driving circuits and deflection mechanisms can take it. But yeah, refresh rates of CRT aren't really tied to price.
sprayk 12/22/2025||||
all CRTs televisions were either 60Hz or 50Hz depending on where you are in the world
cm2187 12/22/2025||
Yes and no. Half of the screen was refreshing at a time, so it was really flashing at 30Hz. You still had a visible stroboscopic effect. True 60Hz and 100Hz screen appeared in the late 90s and made a visible difference in term of comfort of viewing.
ntoskrnl_exe 12/22/2025|||
I think you're mixing monitors and TVs together.

CRT TVs only supported vertical refresh rates of 50Hz or 60Hz, which matched the regional mains frequency. They used interlacing and technically only showed half the frame at a time, but thanks to phosphor decay this added a feeling of fluidity to the image. If you were able to see it strobe, you must have had an impressive sight. And even if they supported higher refresh rates, it wouldn't matter, as the source of the signal would only ever be 50/60Hz.

CRT monitors used in PCs, on the other hand, supported a variety of refresh rates. Only monitors for specific applications used interlacing, customer grade ones didn't, which means you could see a strobing effect here if you ran it at a low frequency. But even the most analog monitors from the 80s supported atleast 640x480 at 60Hz, some programs such as the original DOOM were even able to squeeze 70Hz out of them by running at a different resolution while matching the horizontal refresh rate.

myself248 12/22/2025|||
For some reason I remember 83Hz being the highest refresh rate supported by my XGA CRT, but I think it was only running at SVGA (800x600) in order to pull that rate.

Some demos could throw pixels into VRAM that fast, and it was wild looking. Like the 60Hz soap-opera effect but even more so.

I still feel that way looking at >30fps content since I really don't consume much of it.

pezezin 12/23/2025|||
> some programs such as the original DOOM were even able to squeeze 70Hz out of them by running at a different resolution while matching the horizontal refresh rate.

400p at 70 Hz was the default resolution of the VGA, pretty much all the classic mode 13h games ran at 70 Hz.

SoftTalker 12/22/2025||||
Yeah I remember I could not use a CRT computer monitor at 60Hz or less for any length of time, as the strobing gave me a headache.
mabster 12/22/2025|||
I'm guessing you're talking about interlacing?

I've never really experienced it because I've always watched PAL which doesn't have that.

But I would have thought it would be perceived as flashing at 60 Hz with a darker image?

pledg 12/22/2025||
PAL had interlacing
walkerbrown 12/22/2025|||
For anyone this deep on the thread, check out this video (great presenter!) explaining TV spectrum allocation, NTSC, PAL, and the origin of 29.97 fps.

https://youtu.be/3GJUM6pCpew

DonHopkins 12/22/2025||
TIL NTSC: He explained that NTSC stands for Not The Smartest Choice, but I always assumed it meant Never The Same Color.
mabster 12/25/2025|||
Memories shattered. Yeah, you're right and I would have watched interlaced broadcast content.

I saw interlaced NTSC video in the digital days where the combing was much more obvious and always assumed it was only an NTSC thing!

ssl-3 12/22/2025||||
Except CRT televisions weren't like that at all.

The only time the electron gun was not involved in producing visible light was during overscan, horizontal retrace, and the vertical blanking interval. They spent the entire rest of their time (the very vast majority of their time) busily drawing rasterized images onto phosphors (with their own persistence!) for display.

This resulted in a behavior that was ridiculously dissimilar to a 30Hz strobe light.

numpad0 12/22/2025||||
Did they really do that, or did the tubes just ran at 2x vertically stretched 640x240 with vertical pixel shift? A lot of technical descriptions of CRTs seem to be adapted from pixel addressed LCDs/OLEDs, and they don't always seem to capture the design well
wkat4242 12/22/2025||
They did exactly what you say. Split the image and pixel shift. It was not like 30Hz at all.
numpad0 12/22/2025||
Thanks, I wonder if the phosphor stripes are giving people false impression that those would be pixels...
mjg59 12/22/2025||||
The limiting factor is the horizontal refresh frequency. TVs and older monitors were around 15.75kHz, so the maximum number of horizontal lines you could draw per second is around 15750. Divide that by 60 and you get 262.5, which is therefore the maximum vertical resolution (real world is lower for various reasons). CGA ran at 200 lines, so was safely possible with a 60Hz refresh rate.

If you wanted more vertical resolution then you needed either a monitor with a higher horizontal refresh rate or you needed to reduce the effective vertical refresh rate. The former involved more expensive monitors, the latter was typically implemented by still having the CRT refresh at 60Hz but drawing alternate lines each refresh. This meant that the effective refresh rate was 30Hz, which is what you're alluding to.

But the reason you're being downvoted is that at no point was the CRT running with a low refresh rate, and best practice was to use a mode that your monitor could display without interlace anyway. Even in the 80s, using interlace was rare.

bitwize 12/22/2025|||
Interlace was common on platforms like the Amiga, whose video hardware was tied very closely to television refresh frequencies for a variety of technical reasons which also made the Amiga unbeatable as a video production platform. An Amiga could do 400 lines interlaced NTSC, slightly more for PAL Amigas—but any more vertical resolution and you needed later AmigaOS versions and retargetable graphics (RTG) with custom video hardware expansions that could output to higher-freq CRTs like the SVGA monitors that were becoming commonplace...
mjg59 12/23/2025||
Amigas supported interlace, but I would strongly disagree that it was common to use it.
LocalH 12/22/2025||||
CGA ran pretty near 262 or 263 lines, as did many 8-bit computers. 200 addressable lines, yes, but the background color accounted for about another 40 or so lines, and blanking took up the rest.
mjg59 12/23/2025||
Everything runs at 262.5 lines at 60Hz on a 15.75KHz display - that's how the numbers work out.
cm2187 12/22/2025|||
The irony is that most of those who downvote didn't spend hours in front of those screens as I did. And I do remember these things were tiring, particularly in the dark. And the worst of all were computer CRT screens, that weren't interlaced (in the mid 90s, before higher refresh frequency started showing up).
adrianmonk 12/22/2025|||
I spent literally thousands of hours staring at those screens. You have it backwards. Interlacing was worse in terms of refresh, not better.

Interlacing is a trick that lets you sacrifice refresh rates to gain greater vertical resolution. The electron beam scans across the screen the same number of times per second either way. With interlacing, it alternates between even and odd rows.

With NTSC, the beam scans across the screen 60 times per second. With NTSC non-interlaced, every pixel will be refreshed 60 times per second. With NTSC interlaced, every pixel will be refreshed 30 times per second since it only gets hit every other time.

And of course the phosphors on the screen glow for a while after the electron beam hits them. It's the same phosphor, so in interlaced mode, because it's getting hit half as often, it will have more time to fade before it's hit again.

bitwize 12/22/2025|||
Have you ever seen high speed footage of a CRT in operation? The phosphors on most late-80s/90s TVs and color graphic computer displays decayed instantaneously. A pixel illuminated at the beginning of a scanline would be gone well before the beam reached the end of the scanline. You see a rectangular image, rather than a scanning dot, entirely due to persistence of vision.

Slow-decay phosphors were much more common on old "green/amber screen" terminals and monochrome computer displays like those built into the Commodore PET and certain makes of TRS-80. In fact there's a demo/cyberpunk short story that uses the decay of the PET display's phosphor to display images with shading the PET was nominally not capable of (due to being 1-bit monochrome character-cell pseudographics): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n87d7j0hfOE

adrianmonk 12/22/2025||
Interesting. It's basically a compromise between flicker and motion blur, so I assumed they'd pick the phosphor decay time based on the refresh rate to get the best balance. So for example, if your display is 60 Hz, you'd want phosphors to glow for about 16 ms.

But looking at a table of phosphors ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor ), it looks like decay time and color are properties of individual phosphorescent materials, so if you want to build an RGB color CRT screen, that limits your choices a lot.

Also, TIL that one of the barriers to creating color TV was finding a red phosphor.

numpad0 12/22/2025||||
There are no pixels in CRT. The guns go left to right, ¥r¥n, left to right, while True for line in range(line_number).

The RGB stripes or dots are just stripes or dots, they're not tied to pixels. There would be RGB guns that are physically offset to each others, coupled with a strategically designed mesh plates, in such ways that e- from each guns sort of moire into only hitting the right stripes or dots. Apparently fractions of inches of offsets were all it took.

The three guns, really more like fast acting lightbulbs, received brightness signals for each respective RGB channels. Incidentally that means they could go between brightness zero to max couple times over 60[Hz] * 640[px] * 480[px] or so.

Interlacing means the guns draw every other lines but not necessarily pixels, because CRTs has beam spot sizes at least.

tom_ 12/23/2025||||
No, you don't sacrifice refresh rate! The refresh rate is the same. 50 Hz interlaced and 50 Hz non-interlaced are both ~50 Hz, approx 270 visible scanlines, and the display is refreshed at ~50 Hz in both cases. The difference is that in the 50 Hz interlaced case, alternate frames are offset by 0.5 scanlines, the producing device arranging the timing to make this work on the basis that it's producing even rows on one frame and odd rows on the other. And the offset means the odd rows are displayed slightly lower than the even ones.

This is a valid assumption for 25 Hz double-height TV or film content. It's generally noisy and grainy, typically with no features that occupy less than 1/~270 of the picture vertically for long enough to be noticeable. Combined with persistence of vision, the whole thing just about hangs together.

This sucks for 50 Hz computer output. (For example, Acorn Electron or BBC Micro.) It's perfect every time, and largely the same every time, and so the interlace just introduces a repeated 25 Hz 0.5 scanline jitter. Best turned off, if the hardware can do that. (Even if it didn't annoy you, you'll not be more annoyed if it's eliminated.)

This also sucks for 25 Hz double-height computer output. (For example, Amiga 640x512 row mode.) It's perfect every time, and largely the same every time, and so if there are any features that occupy less than 1/~270 of the picture vertically, those fucking things will stick around repeatedly, and produce an annoying 25 Hz flicker, and it'll be extra annoying because the computer output is perfect and sharp. (And if there are no such features - then this is the 50 Hz case, and you're better off without the interlace.)

I decided to stick to the 50 Hz case, as I know the scanline counts - but my recollection is that going past 50 Hz still sucks. I had a PC years ago that would do 85 Hz interlaced. Still terrible.

cm2187 12/22/2025|||
You assume that non interlaced computer screens in the mid 90s were 60Hz. I wish they were. I was using Apple displays and those were definitely 30Hz.
LocalH 12/22/2025|||
Which Apple displays were you using that ran at 30Hz? Apple I, II, III, Macintosh series, all ran at 60Hz standard.

Even interlaced displays were still running at 60Hz, just with a half-line offset to fill in the gaps with image.

cm2187 12/22/2025||
I think you are right, I had the LC III and Performa 630 specifically in mind. For some reason I remember they were 30Hz but everthing I find googling it suggest they were 66Hz (both video card and screen refresh).

That being said they were horrible on the eyes, and I think I only got comfortable when 100Hz+ CRT screens started being common. It is just that the threshold for comfort is higher than I remember it, which explains why I didn't feel any better in front of a CRT TV.

LargoLasskhyfv 12/24/2025||
Could it be that you were on 60Hz AC at the times? That is near enough to produce something called a "Schwebung" when artificial lighting is used. Especially when using flourescent lamps like they were common in offices. They need to be "phasenkompensiert" (phase compensated?/balanced), meaning they have to be on a different phase of the mains electricity, than the computer screens are on. Otherwise even not so sensitive people notice that as interference/sort of flickering. Happens less when you are on 50Hz AC, and the screens run at 60Hz, but with flourescents on the same phase it can still be noticeable.
LargoLasskhyfv 12/24/2025|||
I doubt that. Even in color.

1986 I got an AtariST with black and white screen. Glorious 640x400 pixels across 11 or 12 inch. At 72Hz. Crystal clear.

https://www.atari-wiki.com/index.php?title=SM124

mjg59 12/23/2025|||
If they weren't interlaced then they were updating at 60Hz, even in the 80s. You're being very confidently wrong here.
anthk 12/22/2025|||
I did 1024x768@85 just fine.
Sunspark 12/22/2025||
If it supported it, 100 Hz paired with a mouse set for 200 Hz was nice and smooth.
cgriswald 12/22/2025||
In the 90s I was tasked with fixing our CEOs computer and entered his office to see the largest CRT I’ve ever seen in my life. (It was not a PVM-4300, though. This one was sat on a metal table.) The size of it was shocking. I was more shocked, however, to find out he used it at 640 x 480. I never saw him use it so maybe he played games on it… from the moon.
jsheard 12/22/2025||
The Sony FW900 was the peak of desktop CRT monitors, and it came out in 1999 so it or one of its rebadges might have been what you saw. That was much smaller than the PVM-4300 at 24" but with a much higher max resolution of 2304x1440@85hz, roughly what we'd now call 1440p, about eight years before the first 1080p LCDs arrived.

Those were still sought after well into the LCD era for their high resolution and incredible motion clarity, but I think LCDs getting "good enough" and the arrival of OLED monitors with near-zero response times has finally put them out to pasture as anything but a collectors item.

ck2 12/22/2025|||
Was turned onto the the FW900 from hardforum years before LCD was available/reasonable

Now I have a FW900 sitting in a closet for decades because I can't lift it anymore

Also will never forget I was taking a walk in the woods years ago and in the middle of nowhere, no houses/apartments for miles, there was a FW900 just sitting there like someone must have thrown it out of an airplane but of course impossible as it was intact and inexplicable WTF (when got home made sure mine was still in the closet and had not somehow teleported itself)

sgarland 12/22/2025||||
I remember in the mid ‘00s having a 19” that did 1600x1200 at (I think) 85 Hz. Damn thing was a tank, but I loved it. So crisp.
bluedino 12/22/2025||||
We set up one of those widescreen Intergraph CRTs for a client way back then, I think the cost of that thing plus the workstation was easily more than I made in a year
jsheard 12/22/2025||
Those Intergraphs were bigger than the FW900 at 28", although lower resolution at 2048x1152@80hz max, so I suppose YMMV which was better.
delamon 12/23/2025|||
IBM was producing in Japan T221 monitor staring from 2001. It had 3840x2160 LCD screen.
Tade0 12/22/2025||
I think I saw one as a child in the mid 90s - it belonged to an upper-middle class Kuwaiti whose at the time preschooler daughter was approximately as tall as the device, which was laid on the carpeted floor.

At the time there were a lot of private import items in Kuwait - particularly cars - so it's not impossible it was this particular model. I mean, what other TV could boast being the height of a four year old?

api 12/22/2025||
My lord... this thing probably requires the power grid to do a generation dispatch when you turn it on.

When I was a kid I lived down in Southeastern Kentucky (Somerset) which gets a lot of its power from the local lake via hydro. My grandfather had this large (not this big but big) tube TV, the old wooden case kind. When you turned it on it'd take about ten seconds in which you could hear tube heaters tinkling, followed by a "grrrnnnnnzzzzz" sound as the tube came to life. I remember my uncle joking that the lake level started visibly falling.

Between LCDs/etc. and LED lighting, the amount of efficiency improvement we've done in home electronics is wild. I can now put my hand right on an equivalent to 100W light output light bulb and it's just... warm.

qingcharles 12/22/2025|
I had the 36" widescreen and I don't remember any issue with the power requirements, but I just calculated the screen area difference. The 43" 4:3 is 60% more area and the 45" 4:3 is 75% more area, so they are vastly bigger screens.
eduction 12/22/2025|
> In Japan, it sold for 2.6 million yen, but in the United States, it retailed for $40,000, a significant markup. To be fair, shipping them across the Atlantic and then throughout the United States must have been expensive.

If they were going all the long way around to the Atlantic that would indeed explain the markup. Not sure why they would though.

B1FF_PSUVM 12/23/2025|
Also ...

> And news articles in 1990 said Sony dealers would not allow any bickering. [...] no discounts.

... that's probably "dickering", and an amusing typo. ("Hey, you can't squabble here!")

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