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Posted by saubeidl 6 hours ago

The EU's Fine Against X Is Not About Speech or 'Censorship'(www.techpolicy.press)
44 points | 82 comments
CamelCaseName 5 hours ago|
How many people get scammed every day on X because the verification badge is a "Spend $1-5" badge?

This was especially plain to see in the crypto side of twitter.

Platforms cannot make statements on the legitimacy of a user without incurring some level of responsibility, regardless if it's "obvious" that a verified badge simply means that you've spent a couple dollars.

The average internet user is closer to your grandmother than you or me, and that is who these laws are meant to protect.

gruez 5 hours ago||
>Platforms cannot make statements on the legitimacy of a user without incurring some level of responsibility, regardless if it's "obvious" that a verified badge simply means that you've spent a couple dollars.

So what's the right level of "responsibility"? Is letsencrypt issuing certificates to websites (which shows a lock icon in browsers) also fooling grandma into sending over her credit card details? What about EV certificates from a few years ago, where you paid ~$300/yr for a green lock? Should the EU get in the business of regulating what levels of verification are required to show lock/checkmark icons?

fidotron 5 hours ago|||
It will end like Germany where to put anything on the Internet your physical address must be visible.

This is what they've been pushing for with app stores.

GuestFAUniverse 5 hours ago||
Not true. Personal and family matters do not need an impress.

You might want to read Rundfunkstaatsvertrag (RStV), (§ 55 Abs. 1): "Anbieter von Telemedien, die nicht ausschließlich persönlichen oder familiären Zwecken dienen, haben folgende Informationen leicht erkennbar, unmittelbar erreichbar und ständig verfügbar zu halten: Namen und Anschrift, bei juristischen Personen auch Namen und Anschrift des Vertretungsberechtigten."

Google translate: " Providers of telemedia services that are not exclusively for personal or family purposes must keep the following information easily recognizable, directly accessible and permanently available: name and address, and in the case of legal entities, also the name and address of the authorized representative. "

fidotron 5 hours ago||
> Personal and family matters do not need an impress.

Does advocating for one political position or another count as a personal or family matter?

gjsman-1000 5 hours ago|||
To continue this train of thought, what happens when the EU decides that unverified users must be hidden by default and can only be accessed by direct lookup?
bigyabai 3 hours ago||
X users would finally come to the realization that they own nothing and support an entirely unprincipled service?
ecshafer 4 hours ago||
So as opposed to the old twitter method which was a vague “you know someone at twitter”, which led to random “journalists” and nobodies being verified. Paying money is just as arbitrary. Money at least means a credit card transaction happened.
ceejayoz 4 hours ago||
An actual human employee at Twitter vouching for someone’s existence seems far more reputable than being able to purchase a Visa gift card in a convenience store.

Verification was “this account is who it says it is”. Not “this account has $10 to spare”.

surgical_fire 3 hours ago||
I remember it being just a "good boy" badge.

People routinely had their checkmark removed when they said something controversial.

myvoiceismypass 2 hours ago||
> People routinely had their checkmark removed when they said something controversial.

It was not indeed happening "routinely".

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/15/16658600/twitter-verific...

energy123 5 hours ago||
Regulate the algorithm. Make it boring.
nailer 5 hours ago|
The algorithm is open source and on GitHub. It is pretty boring.
baobun 5 hours ago|||
No it is not open source and on GitHub. I think it is fair to call that repo fake. It is not even runnable code.
omnimus 5 hours ago||
Also who cares what they publish. They would have to prove they run the same code. Otherwise it can be just gen AI coded whatever.
nickthegreek 4 hours ago||
They have proved that they do not on several occasions.
CamelCaseName 5 hours ago||||
That's a very outdated algorithm, which is why X was willing to open source it.
nailer 5 hours ago||
So campaign for an update.
touwer 5 hours ago|||
And you believe that?
cientifico 2 hours ago||
I don't know how it is in US, but in Europe, the amount of scams is growing. Twitter blue checkmark was created to distinguish real humans vs scammers.

The fine was to protected the users from that scam.

I like paying taxes to protected the users that don't have the ability to detect scams as we all here have (most of the time).

EU miss the point equally to the Congress in uuss when non tech people believe they can rule (or just lobbied).

But on this case, there will be no problem if Twitter had decided to use another checkmark for pro accounts.

saubeidl 5 hours ago||
tl;dr

The three reasons for the fine are:

* Lack of transparency / misleading verified checkmarks

* Lack of open data access

* Lack of any ad transparency showing who paid to show which ads

None of those are censorship. All of those are basic good governance and transparency.

The censorship angle is nothing but FUD by an admin terrified of good governance and transparency.

mikkupikku 5 hours ago|
Two of those, "transparency" and "open data access" are demands from those who would subsequently use that information and access to inform and enforce censorship.
touwer 5 hours ago|||
Based on what information?
saubeidl 5 hours ago|||
That sounds like quite the claim, do you have any evidence to support it?

Personally, I'd like to know who is trying to steer the conversation, in light of psyop campaigns and hybrid warfare against our democracy.

I'd also like researchers to be able to examine how a large public forum is run.

Again, transparency is the name of the game.

mikkupikku 5 hours ago||
> I'd like to know who is trying to steer the conversation, in light of psyop campaigns and hybrid warfare against our democracy.

What use is that information to governments, if not to guide their censorship efforts? It's a setup for labelling your opposition as "hybrid warfare" combatants, not because they picked up a gun but rather because they're saying things you think shouldn't be said.

saubeidl 5 hours ago||
The information isn't made available to governments, it's made available to the people.

What X is scared of is showing that @AlabamaMAGALady and @DeutscherPatriot are based in St. Petersburg.

Again, there is no censorship. Just a transparency requirement.

modsmidsmods 5 hours ago||
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letsthinkmoreok 3 hours ago||
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ban4opinions 5 hours ago||
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DivingForGold 5 hours ago||
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danielbln 5 hours ago||
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46325926

This you?

drooopy 5 hours ago|||
Denial of free speech? In which way? And it's incomprehensible that you would bring random Ukraine bashing into your argument out of the blue.
squigz 5 hours ago|||
In what way has X/Twitter been innovative lately? I suppose renaming to X might count?
mittensc 5 hours ago||
> US State Dept has just announced Visa restrictions on all those EU officials involved

So... what?

Visa restrictions can go both ways with US billionaires and politicians getting denied.

Who's gonna back down?

TZubiri 5 hours ago||
The tweet:

TheRealElonMusk... (Verified) 4h tweeted

"I am a nazi"

The profile:

TheRealElonMuskLol398 - (Verified Parody)

This account is a parody. Disclaimer.

nailer 5 hours ago|
Verification has never meant you’re a good person on any platform
ceejayoz 5 hours ago||
Isn’t the problem that they verified “the real Elon Musk”?
nailer 31 minutes ago||
According to OP they mention they’re parody account in their bio.
ceejayoz 3 minutes ago||
Which no one sees without clicking into said bio.
nailer 5 hours ago|
Of course it is.

Prior checkmarks were for anyone who could pay 15K USD. X simply made it cheaper.

There is also a bizarre fine against Elon personally.

The EU makes more money from fining American tech companies than it makes from EU tech.

Don’t let unelected bureaucrats convince you that this is anything more than a revenue raising exercise for themselves.

touwer 5 hours ago||
Sure. Don't inform yourself. Live in your own little biased world. It's cozy, isn't it. But not real
nailer 30 minutes ago|||
Everything in the post you’re replying to is easily verifiable at any source you want.

I miss when HN didn’t involve itself in these dumb political hatefests.

fidotron 5 hours ago|||
It's true, all those people that disagree with what you have been told are Russian bots.

You can sleep soundly again.

nutjob2 5 hours ago||
EU laws are made by elected representatives.

You make unsupported claims of censorship, but how exactly is a fine against misleading blue dot censorship since it contains no speech? The company could change how they describe the blue dot or attach disclaimers but they don't.

Why? Because the EU's actions serve Musk's and the Administrations political goals of vilifying anyone who has a different view, especially the EU, and using the levers of the state to retaliate and threaten.

> The EU makes more money from fining American tech companies than it makes from EU tech.

If it wasn't for ASML there would be no tech industry. The world depends on a single EU company for advanced chips and for its continued prosperity.

> Don’t let unelected bureaucrats convince you that this is anything more than a revenue raising exercise for themselves.

You're just another EU hater pushing mindless tropes. Why are you so full of hate?

fidotron 5 hours ago|||
> EU laws are made by elected representatives.

No, they are voted on by elected representatives.

They must be proposed by the commission, which is not elected but appointed.

saubeidl 5 hours ago|||
Ugh not this misdirection again.

The commission is appointed by directly elected governments. It's the same as any ministerial post in any government.

It's also the same level of indirection as the US presidency, which is appointed by the Electoral College.

fidotron 5 hours ago|||
> Ugh not this misdirection again.

Oh no! Someone pointed out an inconvenient fact again!

> It's also the same level of indirection as the US presidency, which is appointed by the Electoral College.

But the US President doesn't have a monopoly on setting the agenda of Congress, the Commission does with respect to the EU Parliament. Anyone with any political awareness knows that if you set the agenda you control the outcome.

nutjob2 3 hours ago|||
You're wrong on facts and wrong on the comparison with the US system.

The US president can't propose laws, only Congress can, yet he can "set the agenda".

Only the EU Commission can propose laws, but the EU Council (composed of the heads of state or of government of the EU member states) sets the agenda.

"The European Council is a collegiate body and a symbolic collective head of state, that defines the overall political direction and general priorities of the European Union."

They are functionally equivalent.

fidotron 3 hours ago||
> The US president can't propose laws, only Congress can, yet he can "set the agenda".

Fantastic example of unintentional scare quotes.

> Only the EU Commission can propose laws, but the EU Council (composed of the heads of state or of government of the EU member states) sets the agenda.

Who has to nominate all the possible members of the EU Commission? Is it the EU Council?

Face it, the entire EU structure is designed to prevent little people from ever being able to get a law passed which would possibly benefit them except as populist measures inside the EU which stick it to the evil Americans again to promote internal support for the EU.

saubeidl 5 hours ago|||
> Oh no! Someone pointed out an inconvenient fact again!

It's not a fact. It's just pedantry that is conveniently not applied anywhere else. Nobody would say the US president isn't elected or ministers aren't elected, but when it comes to the EU a double standard is applied by dishonest ideologues.

The rest of your post is classic moving of goal posts, but fwiw Congress has been absolutely irrelevant since the sitting president decided to rule by decree.

fidotron 5 hours ago||
> It's not a fact. It's just pedantry

Absolute gold, thanks for that.

> The rest of your post is classic moving of goal posts.

At least you lot have a wicked sense of irony.

orwin 4 hours ago|||
I will remark that no one disputed OP when he remarked that the US executive power is also appointed, not elected, and that weirdly no one make the same point about how undemocratic it is. It does rs feel like OP is right about ideologues only being pedantic when it serves their points.
fidotron 3 hours ago||
Except for this comment right here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46376178
nutjob2 2 hours ago|||
Your understanding of irony is at an Alanis Morissette level.
wrongagainyyyy 5 hours ago|||
No, it's more like an ambassador that's appointed by the president, you see we have presidential tickets and you get the two people you vote for, which is different from voting for someone then having the person you vote for decide who to appoint.

Yes technically the us 'electors' could vote for a different presidential ticket, but that's never happened in practice and even then their options are generally limited by who ran, electors can't pick just anyone.

saubeidl 5 hours ago||
Technically there is a level of indirection even in the presidency, but sure.

Nobody ever complains about ambassadors not being democratic though. Same thing goes for, idk, a Secretary of State or whatever, they all go through the same process.

Only when it comes to EU institutions people can't hide their hatred and can't help themselves but make the same old dishonest claim.

letsthinkmoreok 4 hours ago||
So there's even so bigger differences because an ambassadors are appointed and can be easily removed, also us ambassadors don't all huddle together, elect leaders between them then get busy making regulations that impact their original constituints, it might be closer to say federal chairmen, once appointed extremely hard to rescind and then are given real powers.

The federal reserve isn't known as especially democratic.

Only people being dishonest are those who ignore massive speech restrictions in europe. Look up cj Hopkins. I could go on and on and on. Sadly my comment likely to never even be seen because of how aggressive hn is whenever there's any intelligent push back to the progressive/liberal agenda.

Edit. If your takeaway aftertwo minute search on cj hopkins is lol Nazis are bad, then you have much more profound problems with research and basic understanding of reality then I can assist you with. Try going through the actual court documents and primary sources for once in your life instead of just letting whichever source of truth you trust to propagandize you.

saubeidl 4 hours ago||
> Look up cj Hopkins

Yikes, I just did. Trivializing the holocaust in Germany of all places is not a good look.

Edit: This is exclusively based on the primary source - a book cover where the guy was using a swastika (!!!) to critise a policy he didn't like - i.e. made light of the holocaust. If you don't understand why that's completely unacceptable, I don't know what to tell you.

letsthinkmoreok 4 hours ago||
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saubeidl 4 hours ago||
Context matters.

It's one thing to use something for documentary purposes or in art. It's another to use it to make light of the holocaust like this guy did. It's all clearly written in our law.

If that person didn't want to follow our law, why did he come here? Why do we have to bother with criminal immigrants that don't want to integrate into our way of life?

nutjob2 3 hours ago|||
If they weren't you'd be whining about a loss of sovereignty by EU states. It's an idiotic catch 22.

The EU systems balances national sovereignty with direct democracy but leans toward the former. It's a good system.

Anyway, EU states went to great lengths to join the EU and can leave at any time. Besides the self-destructive UK, none have.

> They must be proposed by the commission, which is not elected but appointed.

The commission is elected by elected representatives. Just like in many countries the leader isn't directly elected by voters but by their elected representatives.

Your comment is just ideological nonsense. You could argue in good faith about the pros and cons of various systems but you don't, it's just hate because you heard Trump or Musk or some right wing figure say it say it and you're garrotting it.

Prove me wrong by detailing whats wrong with it, and "muh democracy" doesn't count.

fidotron 3 hours ago||
> Prove me wrong by detailing whats wrong with it, and "muh democracy" doesn't count.

We're at the "make arbitrary demands" stage of blatant denialism then.

modsmidsmods 5 hours ago|||
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