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Posted by zdw 12/28/2025

Software engineers should be a little bit cynical(www.seangoedecke.com)
300 points | 208 comments
alphazard 12/29/2025|
I don't know who this kind of cynic vs. idealist vs. optimist thinking works on/for, but it doesn't seem to give me any kind of conceptual edge. Instead of trying to frame things in terms of a mood or a feeling, it's better to try to understand things in terms of what is likely and unlikely to happen.

Large corporations are just groups of people with conflicting incentives, and that means they are basically incapable of performing certain kinds of tasks. It also means that when the incentives do align, some tasks are very likely to be completed, even with other corporations or governments working in opposition.

Some of those tasks might be things you care about, like making a product of a certain quality, or furthering some other goal you have. In all those cases, it is best to to first think about what is most likely to happen and what is unlikely to happen. You have to think of the organization as just another phenomenon that you could exploit if you properly understood it. Unfortunately, how to manipulate complex systems of humans is an open problem, and if anyone had effective, repeatable solutions, then investors would demand that they be implemented.

As it is, most corporations don't act in the interest of the investors a significant amount of the time, even though they are supposed to. The only thing we can reliably bet on is: all organizations tend towards dysfunctional bureaucracies, the longer they live, and the bigger they get.

atmosx 12/29/2025||
I believe the terminology is off. The author seems to confuse cynicism with realism.

Cynicism is specific trait and has only negative connotations. It cannot be “good” for a social structure by definition.

Realism is neutral. But we often assume that realism implies cynicism which is not true.

Parrhesia (tact) is the only worthwhile, long term goal in terms of attitude. And that doesn’t include cynicism. It’s about being honest without feeling like betraying yourself.

“Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." - (supposedly) Isaac Newton

auggierose 12/29/2025|||
> “Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." - (supposedly) Isaac Newton

Never heard of this quote, but I could certainly use a large dose of tact as defined above! The quote seems to be due to an advertising executive though, Howard W. Newton, not Isaac Newton [1].

[1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/07/18/tact/

atmosx 12/29/2025|||
I can relate, thanks for sharing. Indeed, that doesn't sound like something that Isaac Newton[^1] would say :-)

[^1]: My idea of Isaac Newton comes from Stephenson's novel. But I trust that Mr Stephenson's research because it aligns with Newton's other quotes (i.e. "standing in the shoulder of giants" is nice but he's calling another man a moron, eloquently) and the his relationship with Leibniz wasn't the one I would expect.

exomonk 12/29/2025||
"While widely shared as a Newton quote, the earliest known source is advertising executive Howard W. Newton, from a 1946 magazine."

Advertisers probably understand people better than physicists.

kthielen 12/30/2025|||
Ha ha, your short but diplomatic reply is a perfect example of the skill in question. Nicely done.
kelnos 12/29/2025||||
I don't really agree. The dictionary definition of cynical is "believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others".

That's certainly very extreme, but a tempered, measured belief in the negative aspects of human nature is necessary, I think.

You might say, "that's just realism", but I think they are just separate axes: some amount of cynicism (and idealism) is necessary in order to be realistic. Possibly different amounts in different contexts, depending on the other people involved.

bostik 12/29/2025|||
Humans are unavoidable optimists and (sadly) the only sustainable approach is to assume the worst of everyone.

Then when they eventually outdo even your worst expectations, you will be less disappointed by the gap between your original impression and the fresh dose of reality. I've adopted a motto that I could finally put words on about a decade ago. "You are not cynical enough."

And no, not even after accounting for the above.

zwnow 12/29/2025||
Thats how Finland made it to one of the "happiest" countries. People just not expecting anything from anyone, so if by chance something is even slightly above the bare minimum, its been good.
bostik 12/29/2025||
Oddly enough I happen to be Finnish, and formed my view of the world during my first twenty'ish years in there. That view has served me well over the subsequent decades.

It's no surprise or secret that I have since left the country.

igouy 12/29/2025|||
Skeptical.
verisimi 12/29/2025||||
> It cannot be “good” for a social structure by definition.

Is 'good for the social structure' the metric to use for defining good? Should we be serving the social structure to be 'good'?

atmosx 12/29/2025||
Hehe. These are tough questions. I had a specific scope in mind. But to answer your questions.

> Is 'good for the social structure' the metric to use for defining good?

No.

> Should we be serving the social structure to be 'good'?

Yes.

Does that make sense? :-)

verisimi 12/29/2025||
It makes sense.

But, imagine the case where I do not think serving the social structure is good. And I make what sound like cynical jokes about serving the social structure. For those that believe in serving the social structure, that cynicism only had negative connotations. But for those who don't believe all that, the bitter joke might accurately reflect their understanding according to reality.

atmosx 12/29/2025||
Let me narrow the scope a bit. I believe that distrust in others is a flaw in human psychology. But it's old and has been stated by the likes of Plato and Dostoyevsky (e.g. "If God did not exist, everything would be acceptable") and countless others that I look up to.

IMO that is a "series-B" type of argument. We know empirically that great things come out of putting trust on the hands of "unlikely candidates". So even if God doesn't exist, ppl are still capable of "good" just because they chose to do so, given the chance.

At the same time, it would be unwise to blindly trust ppl when there are warnings all around. So why not take a tempered approach? Trust a little, then trust a little more. The "applied answer" (e.g. social policies) falls within a spectrum that might change based on circumstance, there's no absolute representation as if we're picking a point in a Y/X axis, only optimal answers (like NP-complete problems).

I wouldn't call the tempered approach "cynical", I would call that "wise".

verisimi 12/29/2025||
> I believe that distrust in others is a flaw in human psychology.

It sounds like you've never met a narcissist or psychopath. I hope you never do. I think your tempered approach is fine, but still doesn't work for some types of personality.

admiralrohan 12/29/2025||||
Cynicism inherently has no negative connotations. People misrepresented it.

The definition of cynicism as per Google "an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest".

This statement has nothing inherently negative. It's science, backed by evolution. The whole economic system is based on incentive analysis, the concept of invisible hand. Software architects are taught the Principle of least privilege, why? Because of cynicism, not trusting motive of others. But for everyday life people can't handle it mentally coz they love to think everyone giving them without any expectations.

I know this sounds counterintuitive but this space is limited to write more. If you have clarifying question you can ask me.

DyslexicAtheist 12/29/2025||||
cynicism can also be a label applied by those with toxic positivity to anything that is actually realism
Muromec 12/29/2025|||
That often boils down to being downwind from the proverbal fan vs having a switch to turn it on and off.
hackable_sand 12/29/2025||||
The converse is true
atmosx 12/29/2025|||
Absolutely.
threethirtytwo 12/29/2025||||
I think the terminology objection here is mostly semantic and misses what the author is actually claiming.

No one experiences their own beliefs as “cynical” or “optimistic.” Everyone believes they are being realistic. A cynic does not think “I am distorting reality negatively.” He thinks “this is how things really are.” The labels cynic and optimist are almost always imposed by observers, not chosen by the believer. When someone calls himself a cynic, what he usually means is that others perceive his conclusions, which he believes are factual, as negative.

So the core claim is not that cynicism is a mood or an attitude to aspire to. The claim is that reality itself is often negative, and that people who arrive at pessimistic conclusions are sometimes closer to the truth than people who default to hopeful narratives. Calling that “realism” instead of “cynicism” does not change the substance of the argument.

There is also actual empirical work here, not just vibes. In psychology this shows up under what is sometimes called depressive realism. Multiple studies starting with Alloy and Abramson in the late 1970s found that mildly depressed subjects were more accurate than non depressed subjects at judging contingency, control, and likelihood in certain experimental settings. Non depressed subjects systematically overestimated their influence and future outcomes, while depressed subjects were closer to objective probabilities. Later work refined this and showed the effect is bounded and context dependent, but the core point survived: positive mental health is often associated with optimistic bias, not neutral accuracy.

More broadly, a large literature on optimism bias and self serving bias shows that psychologically healthy people tend to overestimate success, underestimate risk, and interpret ambiguous evidence in their favor. That bias is adaptive and motivating, but it is still a bias. People who lack it tend to have more internally consistent and stable world models, even if those models are less emotionally pleasant.

So saying “realism is neutral” is true in the abstract, but psychologically misleading. Humans do not converge on realism by default. They converge on motivated belief. When someone repeatedly reaches pessimistic conclusions across domains, it is at least plausible that they are sampling reality with fewer affective filters, not merely indulging in a negative personality trait.

That does not mean cynicism is virtuous, or that it should guide social behavior. Tact and parrhesia are social strategies. They are orthogonal to whether your internal model of the world is accurate. You can be accurate and tactful, accurate and abrasive, inaccurate and pleasant, or inaccurate and hostile. Mixing those axes together is what creates confusion here.

The real disagreement is not about tone or attitude. It is about whether optimistic distortions are a feature or a bug. Psychology suggests they are a feature for well being, but a bug for accuracy.

igouy 12/29/2025|||
Yes, the terminology is off — skepticism.
lo_zamoyski 12/29/2025|||
> Large corporations are just groups of people with conflicting incentives [...] The only thing we can reliably bet on is: all organizations tend towards dysfunctional bureaucracies

All societies are dysfunctional, great and small, because human beings are dysfunctional. But ultimately, the basis for any society - family, community, company, nation, human race, etc - is a common good.

So it makes sense to ask: what is the common good of a given large corporation? Why are we all here, together? I suspect many people don't have a good answer. Having the answer, however, gives you a certain agency and intellectual freedom.

alphazard 12/29/2025||
> All societies are dysfunctional, great and small, because human beings are dysfunctional.

I don't agree with the 'because' part of this. It misses my point about why organizations are dysfunctional. Even if the organization was made up of perfectly rational, perfectly functional individuals, it would still be dysfunctional. The people running large corporations, are individually, very rational, and very functional. They are among the most capable humans at achieving their goals. Any explanation of organizational dysfunction has to also explain that data.

The dysfunction (which means actions not aligned with the shareholders) comes from the fact that 1. preferences cannot always be aggregated coherently and 2. that the people operating the corporation do not necessarily have incentives aligned with the shareholders. The first is a mathematical impossibility which cannot be fixed, and the second is a failure of mechanism design. That's the "open problem" I mentioned.

ajuc 12/29/2025|||
> Instead of trying to frame things in terms of a mood or a feeling, it's better to try to understand things in terms of what is likely and unlikely to happen.

Emotions are influencing your thinking, whether you realize it or not. It's better to include them in your model of reality.

It's like modeling the lens you use in your camera. If you do that - you can correct for at least some distortions.

KolibriFly 12/29/2025|||
What they're calling "cynicism" isn't really a mood so much as shorthand for exactly the probabilistic thinking you're describing
gopher_space 12/30/2025|||
> I don't know who this kind of cynic vs. idealist vs. optimist thinking works on/for, but it doesn't seem to give me any kind of conceptual edge.

A basic example might be approaching external requirements (or change in general) with a "what is all this bullshit?" point of view, but then listening to the explanations and taking notes.

threethirtytwo 12/29/2025||
I think this framing quietly smuggles in a category error. Corporations do not behave like scaled up humans, so analyzing them with human intuitions about motivation, learning, or sanity is often misleading.

A corporation is not a person with beliefs, emotions, or a unified model of the world. It is a distributed optimization process composed of agents with local incentives, asymmetric information, and weak feedback loops. What looks like irrationality at the system level is often perfectly rational behavior at the component level. The result is behavior that would be pathological in a human but is structurally normal for an organization.

This is why corporations often resemble what we would call psychopathic traits if observed in individuals. Lack of empathy is not a moral failure, it is an emergent property of decision making that is mediated through abstractions like metrics, quarterly targets, and legal responsibility shields. Harm is externalized because the feedback is delayed, diluted, or borne by parties not represented in the decision loop. There is no felt guilt because there is no felt anything.

Humans update beliefs through direct experience and social feedback. Corporations update through KPIs, incentive realignment, and legal or market pressure. Those signals are coarse, lagging, and often gamed. So you get persistence in obviously harmful or stupid behavior long after any individual inside the company privately knows it is wrong. The system cannot feel embarrassment or regret. It can only respond when the gradient changes.

This also explains why appealing to realism at the individual level often misses the point. Understanding what is likely to happen is useful, but the likelihoods themselves are shaped by incentive topology, not by shared understanding. Even when everyone agrees something will fail, it can still proceed if failure is locally optimal or diffused. Conversely, things that seem impossible can happen quickly when incentives snap into alignment, regardless of prior beliefs.

So cynicism versus optimism is not about mood here. It is about whether you model organizations as intentional agents or as blind selection processes. Once you adopt the latter view, a lot of so called dysfunction stops looking like incompetence and starts looking like exactly what the system was designed to produce.

The depressing part is not that corporations become bureaucratic. It is that they often become very good at optimizing for the wrong thing, and there is no internal mechanism that prefers truth, coherence, or human values unless those happen to coincide with the gradient.

AttentionBlock 12/28/2025||
> It’s a cynical way to view the C-staff of a company. I think it’s also inaccurate: from my limited experience, the people who run large tech companies really do want to deliver good software to users.

I strongly disagree with this statement. What C-staff cares about is share-holder value. What middle management care about is empire building and promotions.

> for instance, to make it possible for GitHub’s 150M users to use LaTeX in markdown - you need to coordinate with many other people at the company, which means you need to be involved in politics.

You presented your point in a misleading way. I would classify this as collaboration/communication rather than politics.

Politics is when you need to tick off a useless boxes for your promo, when you try to to take credits for work you haven't helped with, when you throw your colleague under the bus, when you get undeserved performance rating because the manager thinks you are his good boy. There's a lot more, I didn't read any of your previous blogs, but all of these things are what engineers dread when we refer to politics.

qnleigh 12/29/2025||
This feels a bit like semantics. To get something big done you have to build consensus (e.g. on what to build and what resources to dedicate to it) and align incentives. Oftentimes these things require building relationships and trust first. I would consider all of these things to be a part of politics, but your definition seems to only include the bad stuff.
imiric 12/29/2025|||
> You presented your point in a misleading way. I would classify this as collaboration/communication rather than politics.

Collaboration and communication are key parts of politics, though.

At its core, politics is simply the dynamics within a group of people. Since we innately organize into hierarchies, and power/wealth/fame are appealing to many, this inevitably leads to mind games, tension, and conflict.

But in order to accomplish anything within an organization, a certain level of politics must be involved. It's fine to find this abhorring and to try to avoid it, but that's just the reality of our society. People who play this game the best have the largest impact and are rewarded; those who don't usually have less impact and are often overlooked.

rainonmoon 12/28/2025|||
It's always worth being skeptical when someone appeals with the term "good". I'm sure there are people who run large tech companies who want to deliver "good software", but it's such a meaninglessly vague designation that it being true doesn't matter. I can't speak to the motivations of C-suites I've never met, but I can say for sure that my idea of "good software" is very different to theirs.
samdjstephens 12/29/2025|||
Politics is accruing and deploying political capital within an organisation - or less abstractly, building relationships and using them.

What you’re describing is a particular form of manipulative and divisive politics which is performed by insecure, desperate or selfish people.

Many engineers are not good at building relationships (the job of coding isn’t optimal for it after all), so painting the people who are good at is as narcissistic may be comforting but isn’t correct.

KolibriFly 12/29/2025||
Shareholder value is the explicit objective, and it absolutely constrains behavior
ludicity 12/28/2025||
Just wanted to pop in and say that I think Sean is absolutely right here. I've tried the ultra-cynical view at workplaces, and would have had better results with some "idealism", which he rightly notes in his form is just a more effectively action atop a base of clear-eyed cynicism.

However, I think we've got some tactical disagreements on how to actually make society a better place. Namely, I think Sean is right if you have to remain an employee, but many people just don't have to do that, so it feels a bit like a great guide on how to win soccer while hopping on one leg. Just use two legs!

My own experience, especially over the last year, has been telling me that being positioned as an employee at most companies means you're largely irrelevant, i.e, you should adopt new positioning (e.g, become a third-party consultant like me) or find a place that's already running nearly perfectly. I can't imagine going back to a full-time job unless I was given a CTO/CEO or board role, where I could again operate with some autonomy... and I suspect at many of the worst places, even these roles can't do much.

Also Sean, if you're reading this, we'll get coffee together before March or die trying.

Swizec 12/28/2025|
> I've tried the ultra-cynical view at workplaces, and would have had better results with some "idealism", which he rightly notes in his form is just a more effectively action atop a base of clear-eyed cynicism.

Cynics feel smart but optimists win.

You have to be at least a little optimistic, sometimes even naive, to achieve unlikely outcomes. Otherwise you’ll never put in enough oomph to get lucky.

kelnos 12/29/2025|||
> Cynics feel smart but optimists win.

That's not been my experience. Optimists also tend to assume the best motivations behind the actions of others, and that will nearly always bite you in the ass in any sizeable organization.

I've been the ultra-cynic before, and agree that doesn't work either. People don't like working with you, and don't trust you.

I think we need to be realistic on order to be successful, and neither ultra-cynicism nor optimism fits the bill.

I would suggest that a healthy, reasonable amount of cynicism is a part of being realistic about how the world works.

SkyBelow 12/29/2025|||
>I've been the ultra-cynic before, and agree that doesn't work either. People don't like working with you, and don't trust you.

Is the issue being that one isn't being cynical enough? If you are very cynical about how things will turn out, and share that with others who don't appreciate it (even if you are right), then you are being optimistic in thinking it will change things. Controlling one's displays to others to appear as whatever gets one their best outcome is being even more cynical, to the point of abandoning any attempts at open honest relationships, but it likely works the best if one can pull it off.

Though that might be a very big if, and getting caught faking this likely is worse. Then again, is forcing oneself to adopt optimism just an attempt to do this indirectly, a sort of 'fool yourself so you can better fool others' approach when more direct manipulation doesn't work, given that drive for the optimism is to get better outcomes?

Swizec 12/29/2025|||
Blind optimism is silly. But time and again we’ve shown that tit-for-tat is the best strategy in repeated games.

Start optimistic. Stop if it doesn’t work. In the long-term you don’t need to win every iteration, just enough for a positive expected value. And make sure you don’t get wiped out in any single iteration.

The weeks are short but the decades are long and the industry is smaller than you’d think :)

wombatpm 12/29/2025||||
Optimists proclaim we live in the best of all possible worlds. Pessimists fear that is true.
ravenstine 12/29/2025||
Is that really how most people would define optimism these days? I know that's what it meant in Voltaire's time, but something tells me that if you asked modern optimist whether they thought we lived in the best of all possible worlds, a majority of them would either say no or that they don't know.
wombatpm 12/30/2025||
It would seem if we think Voltaire was wrong, then the difference between pessimists and “modern” optimists is not fundamental but merely a matter of degree.
gjvc 12/29/2025||||
100% agree. Cynics can be always be right about the past, but optimists are often right about the future, because they are the ones actually building it.

The negative replies to this comment are ironic.

neal_jones 12/29/2025||||
Yea, agree with the cynics/optimists point.

Feels like cynics are right and optimists get rich.

I definitely lean more to cynic, my very good friend is def more optimist. He’s worth more than 10x me.

bostik 12/29/2025||
Are you certain about which way the arrow of causality points there? Your friend might have more reason to be optimistic because he is financially secure.
michaelt 12/29/2025||
It's pretty obvious how an insufficiently cynical person could end up badly off - they could send all that money to that deposed prince in Nigeria, or whatever.

But the right optimism in the right situation can really pay off. Imagine you're pitching your non-technical carmaker CEO on a proposal to make a new pickup truck, and the CEO asks if you can make the entire thing with 0.1mm accuracy.

If you say "Yes sir, in fact many parts will be even more accurate than that" your project gets funded.

If you say "No, thermal expansion alone makes that impossible, it's also unnecessary" you're gambling on him respecting your straight-talking and technical chops.

TheOtherHobbes 12/29/2025||
Cynical take - if you know you're lying, that's not optimism, that's cynical manipulation.

A lot of people missing that cynicism isn't the same as sneering grumpiness.

You can be perfectly pleasant and charming while being utterly cynical about how you approach professional relationships.

This is a problem with at least two axes. The cynicism part relies on accurately calibrating the distance between official narratives and reality.

If you're a pessimist, you overshoot. An optimist undershoots. A realist gets it more or less right.

But if the distance is huge, that automatically makes the realist a cynic, because the reality is a lie, and in most orgs failing to take false narratives at face value is considered dissidence.

The strategic part depends on how you handle that. You can be sneering and negative, you can play the game with a fake smile and an eye for opportunity, or you can aim for neutrality and a certain amount of distance.

Sneering negativity is usually the least effective option, even when it's the most honest.

A realist in a functional organisation won't be cynical at all.

michaelt 12/29/2025||
> Cynical take - if you know you're lying, that's not optimism, that's cynical manipulation.

Cynicaler take: That's how some companies fill their management with people who don't know when they're lying.

A person who knows how much 5m of steel expands with a 30°C temperature swing has to say "No" to the boss. A person who doesn't know that, but does know the production line uses a $250,000 Leica laser tracker thingummy that's real accurate can say "Yes Sir" and find themselves in charge of a funded project.

danieltanfh95 12/29/2025||||
> Cynics feel smart but optimists win.

survivorship bias.

themafia 12/28/2025|||
> but optimists win.

Win.. what?

> enough oomph to get lucky.

The underpaid cargo cult mentality is alive in well in corporate America.

bayarearefugee 12/28/2025|||
Have you logged into LinkedIn lately?

Nothing but pseudo "grindset" cargo cultists as far as the eye can see writing worthless technical platitude posts.

It feels like a parody site of itself these days.

tormeh 12/29/2025|||
That's all fake. LinkedIn is for sales and recruiting. If you see something there - a post, anything - it's meant to sell something. It's all as fake as the contents of an ad break.
ludicity 12/28/2025||||
It's important to note that many of those people aren't winning. What you're witnessing is the marketing equivalent of what random government software engineers produce. A good number of the people on HN would be trivially outearning those nerds
gjvc 12/29/2025|||
>Nothing but pseudo "grindset" cargo cultists as far as the eye can see writing worthless technical platitude posts.

stealing this. ;-)

Swizec 12/28/2025||||
> > but optimists win. > Win.. what?

Depends what you want to win?

You won’t have happy kids and a good family life, if you don’t think it’s possible. Same as you won’t make a cool open-source library, if you aren’t optimistic (or naive) enough to go work on that.

And if you keep saying everything is impossible a huge drag extremely worthless and why even bother trying, you won’t get the fun projects at work.

Muromec 12/29/2025|||
Underpaid as in 200k p/a undrrpaid?
themafia 12/29/2025||
I'd have to know what your work is worth; however, the past half a decade has brought enormous inflation that people still haven't factored into their expectations. Wait until commodities prices rise soon and then we'll see a shift in workplace attitudes towards salaries. The 401k ponzi scheme has to end sometime.
KaiserPro 12/28/2025||
Being british, I am cynical by default.

Its baffling to see US engineers repeatedly being shat on by the company, and yet still retain belief in the chain of command.

But, to be a good cynic, you need a rich information network to draw on to see what the wider business is doing and thinking. You must understand the motivations of the business, so that you can be correctly cynical.

simianwords 12/29/2025|
>Its baffling to see US engineers repeatedly being shat on by the company, and yet still retain belief in the chain of command.

But they are the best paid and everyone wants to move to the US.

KaiserPro 12/29/2025|||
But thats different.

I was paid exceptionally well when I was at a FAANG, but that didn't extend to me blindly following my leadership team into the same obvious bear trap every 6 months.

Muromec 12/29/2025||
Blindly following or just paying lip service to keep being paid? How do you know somebody is a cynic if they dont express open their contempt openly?
achenet 12/29/2025|||
I'd argue that expressing one's contempt openly is probably a sign of optimism more than anything - it shows you believe that your words might actually affect the direction of the organization rather than just getting you fired for disagreeing with your pointy-haired boss.
swiftcoder 12/29/2025||||
A lot of us expressed our contempt pretty damn openly in FAANG. It didn't seem like a barrier to getting paid
KaiserPro 12/29/2025|||
I made posters openly mocking the pricks in charge. It didn't stop me getting paid.

Improved morale significantly.

madeofpalk 12/29/2025||||
> everyone wants to move to the US

I think this is only true within certain bubbles. Within my bubble there’s a considerable amount of cynicism towards the US. No one wants to move to the US because of gestures broadly.

simianwords 12/29/2025||
yours is the bubble. reality is that most people want to move to the US and are happy there.
zwnow 12/29/2025|||
> But they are the best paid and everyone wants to move to the US.

Not really, I prefer less pay but way more affordable cost of living over a dying country rapidly moving into fascism. What's your money worth compared to a life worth living without tyrannical maniacs ruling over your every move. Fuck the USA.

simianwords 12/29/2025||
sure but most don't feel that way and simply prefer higher salary.
moezd 12/29/2025||
This is just a coping mechanism.

We know that C-level doesn't understand the tech they are evangelizing at all, and we know that at some point, they end up approving a lot of new middle management hires that are just as power hungry as they are, so the feedback loop from the shop to the top is sealed off. These two catastrophes seal the fate of any company.

If your company is still not infected with these, you can still call plausible deniability or oversight or whatever excuse for them, and true, they are human. But if I look into their eyes and see nothing but desire for power, that's a toxic company and no amount of "healthy cynicism" will help me with that.

senshan 12/29/2025||
I do not understand the dilemma.

The sole reason I am hired for my position as an engineer is that I am expected to make the life of my hiring manager easier. Not to save the world, not to do "the right thing" (whatever this means), but help my manager. During the interview, I had a chance to a get a rough idea what I am going to be responsible for.

If the organization or the mission changes to the extent that it is no longer consistent with my values, I start pinging my former colleagues working elsewhere.

So where is the intrigue?

SoftTalker 12/29/2025||
Exactly, and this is what the deal has always been when you are an employee in a for-profit corporation. You do what the company asks you to do, and they pay you for your time. This is not "late-stage" anything it's the way it's always been.

If you want to save the world, join the Peace Corps or at least a non-profit.

fcantournet 12/29/2025|||
Unless you are a personal assistant, your job probably is not to "make the life of your hiring manager easier".

You have responsibilities, which ideally should be stipulated in some form in a contract, and if you are vaguely senior they hopefully go beyond "do whatever steeve needs to feel good".

I would argue that it is in fact your manager whose job entails making your (and your peers) professional life easier, by identifying the roadblocks, escalating problems if need be, etc...

senshan 12/30/2025||
Did you have to hire people? If so, why did you do that? Was it because you had "too much on your plate"? If so, did not hiring a good employee "make your life easier"? Was there another reason for doing that? (honest question)

Indeed, it was assumed that the manager is intelligent (per Carlo Cipolla). One would not take or stay in the job otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_M._Cipolla

zwnow 12/29/2025||
Tldr: Yes my lord, I'll build the concentration camps as you desired, as its not my business to question thy authority. As long as I get paid, I wont question the effects my work has.

What an ignorant way of working. Guess that's who they hire to build the software spying on Amazon drivers so they have to piss into bottles to make deliveries on time.

senshan 12/30/2025||
Not quite. I do not think it was implied. This is why the interview was mentioned and the criterion for quitting.

What is your approach?

Animats 12/29/2025||
This is a consequence of late-stage technology. When few people could make it work at all, the people who could were left alone to make it work. Once it was a routine job, management and political priorities began to control.

This has happened with other technologies as they matured. Bridges. Electrical power. Radio. (The story of Roebling, the Tweed Ring, and the Brooklyn Bridge is worth knowing. Tweed tried to steal too early in the history of the technology, and it backfired on him big-time.)

This happened to software a while back. Semiconductors had it less because keeping up with Moore's Law dominated the politics.

Learn more about the history of technology and this pattern reappears.

elliotto 12/28/2025||
The author seems like a nice guy, but perhaps a bit naive regarding the efforts big tech companies go to to crush employees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...). They appear to be a staff level engineer at a big tech company - I don't know how much money they make, but I suspect it's an ungodly amount.

The organisation he works for is implicated in surveillance, monopoly exploitation, and current military action involving particularly unpopular wars. No one forced him into this role - he could have made less money elsewhere but decided not to. He has decided to be a cog in a larger, poorly functioning machine, and is handsomely rewarded for it. This sacrifice is, for many, a worthwhile trade.

If you don't want to engage with the moral ramifications of your profession, you are generally socially allowed to do so, provided the profession is above board. Unfortunately, you cannot then write a post trying to defend your position, saying that what I do is good, actually, meanwhile cashing your high 6-7 figure check. This is incoherent.

It is financially profitable to be a political actor within a decaying monopolist apparatus, but I don't need to accept that it's also a pathway to a well-lived life.

therobots927 12/28/2025||
I couldn’t agree more. I also work in tech but I’m incredibly cynical which makes it difficult to see the authors post as anything but a combination of self promotion / self soothing.
stanfordkid 12/28/2025|||
The dude works for GitHub. I don’t doubt there is some rotten code on there, but what you’re saying seems like a stretch and exactly what he’s describing.
makeitdouble 12/28/2025|||
It's been almost 8 years now since the Microsoft acquisition, should it still be seen as an independent culture ?
stavros 12/28/2025||
Jesus, what is up with time? I thought this was max two years ago, and the "8" was unpleasantly surprising to read.
nrhrjrjrjtntbt 12/29/2025||
I would have guessed covid was earlier, at least.

Getting older is worse than travelling near light speed dammmit.

rrdharan 12/28/2025||||
GitHub is owned by Microsoft which covers most of what GP is alluding to…
enraged_camel 12/29/2025||||
Yeah, that was bizarre to read. I thought “wait, Sean works for Palantir?!”
rainonmoon 12/28/2025|||
Microsoft is currently a target of BDS, which calls it "perhaps the most complicit tech company in Israel’s illegal apartheid regime and ongoing genocide against 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza." This isn't about some hobbyist's wonky code. https://bdsmovement.net/microsoft
ChrisMarshallNY 12/28/2025|||
I chose to spend most of my career at a company that did stuff I found morally acceptable (inspiring, even). I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

I have found that mentioning that, elicits scorn and derision from many in tech.

Eh. Whatevs. I'm OK with it (but it appears a lot of others aren't, which mystifies me).

pear01 12/28/2025|||
I believe what you are running up against is a tendency to externalize shame as anger.

Part of the tradeoff the parent comment references is a lack of thinking about the moral ramifications. Thus, when you mention your position which is grounded in that tradeoff's opposite, the reaction is not surprising. They are largely incompatible. Because your position hinges on a moral component, you are thus passing a moral judgement on others. This is often met with scorn, most especially because people have an aversion to shame, and it doesn't help if it's on the behalf of someone essentially randomly declaring they are morally better than you anytime the topic of their employment comes up.

So really, I'm not sure why you would be surprised, though I sympathize with your general sentiments, in a way you should know better. Surely you are aware of the aversion to shame writ large. That seems a logical predicate of your own conceptualization of your position.

ChrisMarshallNY 12/29/2025||
> I'm not sure why you would be surprised

Maybe because I'm not especially interested in passing moral judgment on others, for working at a company that isn't a "moral high ground" company, but isn't exactly NSO or Palantir (I used to work for a defense contractor). I feel profoundly lucky to have found a company that made me feel good about what I did. It was worth the low salary (and other annoyances). I understand that I'm fortunate, and I'm grateful (not snotty).

I find that people take the mere existence of others that have different morals to be a personal attack.

I know that it happens, but I'm not really sure why. It's not like I'm thinking about comparing to others, when I say that I worked for a company that inspired me. I was simply sharing what I did, and why.

I read comments about people that are excited about what they do, and even how much they make, all the time (I spend a lot of time on HN), and never feel as if they are somehow attacking me. They are enthusiastic, and maybe even proud of what they do, and want to show off. I often enjoy that.

pear01 12/29/2025||
To be candid, this is a common refrain that simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

> I'm not especially interested in passing moral judgment on others

Earlier:

> I chose to spend most of my career at a company that did stuff I found morally acceptable (inspiring, even). I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

Put more succinctly:

"I work somewhere that is morally acceptable. I could have made double or more if I had worked at a 'more dodgy', less morally acceptable place. Like where you work. No judgement though."

Honestly, I would have more respect for your sentiments if you would just stick to the logical conclusion of your position. Perhaps the scorn you meet is simply a reaction to this inability to simply follow the logical course of your own viewpoint. It has nothing to do with the mere existence of your morals it has to do with the fact that they are incompatible.

You want to have it both ways - you want to make a moral judgement and yet not make a moral judgement. Or you want to bound your moral judgement simply to yourself as if it is at all logical to not extrapolate it to others. If others can work for wherever they please, then what do you even mean by "morally acceptable" or "dodgy"? Simply places you prefer? That's not what morally acceptable means.

For someone who speaks of moral judgements, you don't seem to grasp their implications. I would suggest reflecting on this if you actually care about the reactions you elicit in others. This brief back and forth with you is certainly suggestive of a picture far different from the one you originally painted.

palata 12/29/2025|||
Genuinely interested: if you ask someone where they work, and they answer that they work in [place some TooBigTech here], do you consider that they judge you because you are not working for a TooBigTech? "I work for a TooBigTech so I'm probably better and richer than you. No judgement though"?

To me it's like with vegetarians. If someone tells you out of the blue "I am a vegetarian because I find it completely irresponsible to not be vegetarian. No judgement though", it's not the same as someone saying "I would like to inform you that I am a vegetarian, given that we are going to eat something and it is relevant for you to know it right now". Yet that latter situation will regularly offend non-vegetarians just the same.

shwaj 12/29/2025||
Very apt analogy.
Folcon 12/29/2025||||
I personally think this is an uncharitable reading, you can have a different internal benchmark or standard you want for yourself vs others

From a purely consistency perspective I don't think you're incorrect, but humans aren't purely consistent

We are able to accept that our personal preferences aren't the same as others and still like, respect or love them anyway

I read the GP as stating:

- he wanted to work for a place that made him happy

- he voiced that pleasure to others, "I'm glad I work at a place I find inspiring"

- they took that as an implicit attack on them

There are at least two parties to a conversation, each of them gets their own opportunity to interpret what occurs

It sounds like in this instance they interpreted his position much more negatively than he intended

Now to answer why is in my opinion is much more complicated and I honestly wouldn't hazard a guess without either being there or knowing both parties very well

Izkata 12/29/2025||
> - he voiced that pleasure to others, "I'm glad I work at a place I find inspiring"

That's not what he said though. His version included a comparison to others:

> I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

That's where the offense comes from.

ChrisMarshallNY 12/29/2025||
Just FYI. You're right, and I probably could have phrased it better, but I wasn't talking about this post.

Most posts are "I worked at a company that did stuff I really liked, and was honored to work with some really inspiring people."

That's usually enough to cause people to assume that I'm insulting them.

I do my best to not be offensive, but some folks live in a world, where everything is a personal slight, and there's really nothing I can do about that.

ChrisMarshallNY 12/29/2025|||
Have a great day!
shikshake 12/28/2025||||
Your comment really resonates with me, I’m in a similar position though much more junior. My colleagues in tech can’t fathom that I actively choose to stay where I am and make 50% of their salary.

I’ve found talking about ethics and moral responsibility with people working in big tech is futile and frustrating. Almost everyone takes it as a personal attack though I never hold anyone else to my moral standards.

strken 12/29/2025||
Is that surprising? Big tech selects for people with few ties to a real life community (because they're willing to move to the Bay Area/NY/Seattle/etc.), no particular moral objections to the work, and enough brainpower to rationalise anything.

Also, religion and philosophy are alike in that some people have a rich inner life that they are not willing to share with most of the world. Your acquaintance who works for a defence contractor is not going to explain why he believes propping up the Pax Americana (or helping ICE deport migrants, or working for a social media company, or any other example of something you don't like) is morally right unless he feels safe in doing so.

parpfish 12/29/2025||||
I think the heart of the problem is that we’ve somehow conflated the highest paying Eng jobs with being the most prestigious.

People feel like if they want to climb the prestige ladder, they need some way of justifying the business practices of the megacorps.

In contrast, I feel like it’s well established that gigs in big law or finance or medicine have found a way to decorrelate pay from social status. You can make a choice between chasing money OR prestige.

nmfisher 12/28/2025||||
For what it's worth, I personally have a lot of respect for people who do this (or at the very least, people who forego higher salaries to avoid working for companies they find morally objectionable).
ChrisMarshallNY 12/29/2025||
> avoid working for companies they find morally objectionable

I don't really think of it that way.

I didn't work for "not-bad" companies. I worked for a good company.

The attitude makes a difference. If the only way I can feel good about myself, is to define myself by what I'm against, I find life is bleak.

I prefer to define myself by what I'm for.

the_cat_kittles 12/28/2025|||
its because it hurts peoples feelings to confront the truth
johnfn 12/29/2025|||
It seems a bit too much to assert that every developer should be fully responsible for every moral slight their company commits. It is entirely possible to make a positive impact on the world from a large organization - in fact for some people it may be the most direct way that they can make such an impact.

Saying that he is morally bankrupt is like saying that you are morally bankrupt for continuing to live in the US because the current administration is a dumpster fire. It is financially profitable to live in the US; you basically cash in a 6 figure check (perhaps translate the metaphor by taking the monetary value that a significantly increased quality of life is worth to you) by living here rather than some other, lesser developed country with more morally aligned politics. Why not leave? I submit that the calculus that goes through your head to justify staying is roughly equivalent to the one that goes through his when he thinks about continuing to work at big tech. I also don’t think that either of you are wrong for having some justification.

elliotto 12/29/2025|||
I don't think he's morally bankrupt. I am disagreeing with his attempt to handwave away a moral analysis of these organizations as 'cynicism'. I think these analyses are really important.

I don't live in the US. But if I did, and I was capable enough to be a successful software engineer, I would try to work for an organisation that was not implicated in abhorrent behaviour. If I was to work for one, I would not attempt to dismiss criticisms of it as cynicism.

johnfn 12/29/2025||
I feel you missed the gist of my argument, which is that anyone who lives in the US in 2025 does a similar sort of "morality calculus" as someone who works for Big Tech. To be honest, I think living in the US is worse.
elliotto 12/29/2025||
I think there are reasonable things to expect from someone's morality calculus. Leaving the country you were born in for moral reasons is a complex and life changing undertaking and beyond reasonable expectation for anyone not extremely politically motivated, let alone resourced enough to do so. Not working for a company whose moral values you disagree with (when you have an extremely lucrative skillset) is a smaller and more reasonable ask.

I'm also not really asking that people leave these roles - everyone has their own path to take. Just that they don't make posts dismissing criticism of these structures as silly cynicism. Or else they will have to contend with me writing a comment disgreeing with them.

surajrmal 12/29/2025|||
Big tech companies are large. It's very possible to be working on things that are generally great for society while others in the company are not. Fighting from the inside for the behavior you want to see gives you an outsized influence on the outcomes you want to see.
swiftcoder 12/29/2025||
> Fighting from the inside for the behavior you want to see gives you an outsized influence on the outcomes you want to see

A lot of people say this, while collecting 6-7 figure cheques. I've not seen that much evidence that it is correct - certainly, I might as well have been pissing into the wind, for all the effect my influence had on the direction of various FAANG

surajrmal 12/29/2025||
If you are just a lower level IC, your influence is small. However if you can climb to higher level 7+ or enter management you will have a lot of control of roadmaps you own. If you're trying to influence organizations you're not in you're also going to have quite limited influence, but participating in dogfooding programs and filing bugs is still more influence than you would have externally.

I do agree that it's not easy even given the correct conditions.

underdeserver 12/29/2025|||
That's a straw man.

The cynicism the post is talking about is the argument that your chain of command doesn't want to make good software but you do, not anything related to the use of said software.

andersonpico 12/29/2025||
oh that's a pretty nice summary of the points in the article, and while it seems to have sprung a nice discussion about interesting topics, the whole thread seems to have not understood the author as clearly
coryrc 12/29/2025|||
Were individual Germans responsible for the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime? If they weren't there because they were resisting, then I say yes. And if we go on living our lives without resisting the current government -- especially if you work at Google, with your leader bowing down to Trump and doing his bidding -- then, yes, you are morally culpable. Most people are shitty, so it's not surprising so many are still going along with it. The engines of commerce are still going. The ports are not blockaded and the government buildings are not being burned. We aren't marching on Washington and liberating the buildings. We are culpable.

Democratic voters are culpable; their politicians are all about keeping the system going but tweaking it. No, the system is bad. A system that results in trump being elected a second time is prima facie evil and must be torn down. If you have power and aren't working to treat down this system, you are culpable.

johnfn 12/29/2025||
Do you really think that the actions of GitHub are equivalent to that of the Nazi regime?
andersonpico 12/29/2025|||
it's definitely not and would be absurd to suggest otherwise, but isn't it also a very common way of illustrating the dilution of responsibilities among a very large group of people?
coryrc 12/29/2025||
The actions of Microsoft leadership are not the same as the Nazi regime, but are similar to the industrialists that supported Adolf Hitler's rise. I ain't Godwinning this thread, we're well along the rise of the American Reich.
coryrc 12/29/2025|||
[dead]
hahahacorn 12/28/2025|||
Framing an agreement between companies to not poach each others top talent as a means to “crush their employees” is very discrediting.

I’m glad for the antitrust litigation. It’s very obvious that this was a collusion effort that was self serving to each party involved, as a means of overcoming a negative (for them) prisoners dilemma type situation.

The fact that it depressed wage growth was a welcomed side effect. But framing that as the intended outcome as a way of discrediting original author is telling. I don’t know if you’ve understood corporations to be rather simple profit seeking entities, whose behavior can be modeled and regulated to ideal societal outcomes accordingly.

What military action is GitHub involved with.

swiftcoder 12/29/2025|||
> Framing an agreement between companies to not poach each others top talent as a means to “crush their employees” is very discrediting.

How exactly would you frame major corporations colluding to suppress wages?

> What military action is GitHub involved with.

GitHub has been part of Microsoft for the better part of a decade now, and Microsoft is pretty broadly involved with the military (across a wide swathe of countries)

voxl 12/28/2025|||
Perceiving corpos as "simple profit seeking entities" is some of the most naive Milton Friedman crap. Corporations operate as an amalgamation of the desires of a group of powerful enough influencers, of which your rank and file investor is NOT making a meaningful contribution. Milton Friedman has done more harm to capitalism than Marx has done to socialism.
hahahacorn 12/28/2025||
Friedman abstracted away feedback loops between corpos and the social/regulatory environment they operate in. We agree that that is beyond fucking useless.

I didn’t make that same naive assumption when describing corpos as simple profit seeking entities, you just misunderstood what I was saying.

conception 12/28/2025|||
Evergreen: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

bdangubic 12/28/2025||
except they do understand it of course but choose not to accept it :)
asadotzler 12/28/2025|||
I spent 25 years in Silicon Valley, 100% of it working on making OSS happen, and 90% of it for a non-profit, while my peers from the early days almost all moved on to Big Tech by 2005-2010, most for 2x+ what I was making and a few for outrageously more than that. But I couldn't do it. The lure was attractive and I spent uncountable hours over about a decade debating whether to bite, but in the end I knew I couldn't feel good about myself if I was working for the absolute worst companies in the world.

I will leave this world with no meaningful legacy, but that's preferable to exiting knowing that I'd directly helped Big Tech get bigger and even more evil.

If I'd had kids, maybe my calculus would have been different. Maybe I'd have been motivated enough for their futures to sacrifice my conscience for them, but I did not, and so all I had to consider was whether or not I'd be able to live with myself, and the answer for me was no.

There have always been enough decent, even well paying jobs in software outside of the Big Tech companies, even in Silicon Valley, and so paying my bills and saving for a good retirement didn't require the soul sacrifice.

I don't begrudge anyone who bit that lure but I am entirely content to have said no myself.

koverstreet 12/28/2025||
OSS is your legacy!

If you write proprietary code, everything you do dies with that company. I certainly don't want my life's work locked away like that. Working on OSS means a better chance to put the engineering first and do something that will last.

I did my few years and Silicon Valley too, and when it came to decide between money and code, I chose the code. Haven't regretted a thing.

asadotzler 12/28/2025||
I hear ya. Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you chose OSS and I fully share your views as expressed here.

I think helping make OSS a thing at all, especially in the very early days when my employer was seen as the poster child for its failure, will be the closest thing I have to a legacy. And I got to travel the world teaching about and evangelizing the open source process, tooling, and ethos which was great fun. I even got to play in the big leagues for a while, at the height of our consumer successes, and those years helped solidify some important industry standards that will certainly live on for a while.

I'm happy with my contributions, and happy with the comfortable life I achieved all while having a good time doing it. I'm also very happy that I got out a couple years ago before this latest wave of destruction.

koverstreet 12/28/2025||
OSS is even more important today. The days of the Unix vendors, early Google, when we had tech companies that were engineer focused - those days are gone. It's MBAs running the show, and that's how we get enshittification.

There is no set future to what kind of technology we will build and end up with. We can build something where everything is locked away, and poor stewardship and maintenance means everything gets jankier or less reliable - or we can build something like the Culture novels, with technology that effectively never fails - with generations of advancement building off the previous, ever improving debugability, redundancy, failsafes, and hardening, making things more modular and cleaner along the way.

I know which world I'd rather live in, and big tech ain't gonna make it happen. I've seen the way they write code.

So if some people see my career as giving a middle finger to those guys, I'm cool with that :)

qnleigh 12/29/2025||
Let's not make everything political.

Not to take a stance on the issue either way, but I think the author is only referring to the politics involved in building products, not the broader political/moral issue of what the company does with all of the money it earns from those products. I don't see their post as defending or even referring to the latter.

afavour 12/29/2025||
> Let's not make everything political.

Everything is political, though. Establishing a barrier for cynicism so it doesn’t have to tackle the tough questions is understandable but it’s not that justifiable.

qnleigh 12/29/2025||
I think a more charitable reading of this post doesn't defend the moral aspects you're referring to, but is about much more pedestrian things like office politics.

It kinda makes me sad to see the top comment on a thoughtful piece like this expressing outrage on something the other didn't even take a stance on. I come to Hacker News to avoid this kind of rhetoric.

whilenot-dev 12/29/2025|||
> I come to Hacker News to avoid this kind of rhetoric.

I think this rhetoric fits seamlessly inline with the hacker ethos, and that's one of my motivators (if not the biggest) to read through HN comments at all. It's exhausting to comprehend at times, but so are any well expressed positions in the complexity of life. Otherwise, I worry that HN will complete its transformation to become just another marketing platform for the wider tech sector, like some seem to already think it is.

elliotto 12/29/2025|||
I wrote this comment in a response to his second chapter, where he presents criticism of the political role of the company as cynical, and then later where he presents a perspective on some tech company anti-union behaviour being conspiratorial.

I definitely took an uncharitable reading, but man am I tired of being told big tech is neutral. I will continue to be cynical and I will continue to gnash my teeth at anyone who tells me otherwise.

swiftcoder 12/29/2025||
> To the extent they have any control, they try to make their employees happy so they’ll work for less money and not leave.

I think this is definitely overly charitable to corporations. Meta and Amazon both had pretty explicit policies that a modest level of employee churn was desirable, particularly when it involved folks leaving large quantities of unvested stock on the table.

spongebobstoes 12/29/2025|
some people are happier in a high performance environment with employee churn, when it means having more talented coworkers
alexwennerberg 12/29/2025|||
> some people are happier in a high performance environment with employee churn, when it means having more talented coworkers

It means having coworkers who are constantly in competition with you for survival. It's a nightmare.

ketzo 12/29/2025||
Yes, and some people are still happier there!

Different people can have wildly different expectations for a work environment, and wildly different tolerances of social discomfort.

swiftcoder 12/29/2025|||
> when it means having more talented coworkers

I'm not sure it is really correlated? It causes a lot of the high-performers to jump ship pretty regularly too - the company is perfectly happy replacing an expensive veteran with a college hire

mpyne 12/29/2025||
If the net inflow of talented coworkers to the company with churn (including hi-po churn) still exceeds the level of talent you'd get at the company with stagnant workforce levels, then maybe you'd still find it preferable.

High churn doesn't necessarily mean low average talent, especially if the skills you need to be a high-performer are not specific to any one company.

divbzero 12/28/2025|
> It is just a plain fact that software engineers are not the movers and shakers in large tech organizations. They do not set the direction of the company. To the extent that they have political influence, it’s in how they translate the direction of the company into specific technical changes. But that is actually quite a lot of influence!

I don’t know if you’d label this view “cynical” or “idealist” but it feels balanced and I think there is a lot of truth in it. As a software engineer, you’re not a mindless automaton “just doing your job”. Your judgment about the proper way to do things—or whether a thing should be done like that at all—makes a difference in how useful and beneficial a product is for end users and for our society more broadly.

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