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Posted by blenderob 2 days ago

A4 Paper Stories(susam.net)
372 points | 174 commentspage 2
tolerance 1 day ago|
Paper Towel stories:

I’ve started to determine the right package of paper towels to purchase according to the cents per square meter value. You can discern the quality of a deal at the grocery by referring to the ‘cents per X’ market located on price tag next to the marked price.

I’m beginning to turn sour on the ‘2 Jumbo-Mega-Rolls are the equivalent of 8 Super rolls’ scheme that’s en vogue. Are there retractable roll holders to accommodate for all of this?

It doesn’t help that many of these packages are priced and then marked down in ways to entice the buyer toward purchasing them instead of more reasonably priced and proportioned ones.

necovek 6 hours ago||
As mentioned in a sibling comment, weight might need to be accounted for too: thicker paper is more absorbant, but not linearly so.

So really, how absorbant the paper is should be the gold standard, so let's ask manufacturers to put that on the packaging?

Ekaros 1 day ago|||
With paper towel I have been thinking that the area might not be important, but the number of sheets would be. As long as they do not get too small. And then there is also the quality and if they are half or full. For some uses you just want the full.

It is complicated area. Not to even get to loo roll. Where I noticed that the ecological one I bought feels quality wise inferior to normal one. And this is premium type of stuff. So it sits between the premium and cheap, but more on premium end.

fainpul 1 day ago|||
Since not all paper is of the same thickness, shouldn't you compare "weight per price"?
fragmede 1 day ago||
The worst is that the assumption that the greater quantity is cheaper per unit, but for some reason that's not always true so you have to sit there and do the math in order to get the best deal.
Aryezz 1 day ago||
Maths Youtuber Noel Friedrich recently made a video about A4 paper[0]. It turns out that since the ISO specification rounds the side lengths down to whole millimeters, with compounding errors, more than 2^10 A10s (smallest paper size in the standard) fit into one A0 (largest size in the standard).

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKBCIMkDbw

madcaptenor 2 days ago||
As an American I have done this with 8.5 x 11 "letter" paper. I wonder if there's some way one can take advantage of the special properties of A[n] paper.
ramses0 1 day ago||
1000% yes! An 8.5x11" paper is effectively a 12" ruler accurate to 2 decimal places.

Fold an 8.5" into a square (right triangle) and the long edge is exactly 12.02"

Fold that in half and you can measure 6.01", and 3.005" (exactly). You get 1.5" for free, and can fairly accurately get exactly 1" by rolling the other 3" side into thirds.

If you want to get an exact 1", you can technically get there via 11"-8.5"-1.5", and that gives you the full imperial (fractional) measurement basis, all from folding a (presumably accurate) 8.5x11" piece of paper.

clickety_clack 2 days ago|||
As a long time European I never thought I’d come to see the sense of American ways, but having lived here now for a couple of years, it actually is easier for it to just be straight up 8.5 x 11 rather that a ratio that includes a square root.
saalweachter 2 days ago|||
It's an interesting tiny trade-off.

Everyone makes paper the same hypothetical way, by producing large sheets and cutting them in half, and ANSI E (34"x44" or 864mm x 1118mm) isn't that different than A0 (841mm x 1189mm), but the slight starting difference means that there are two aspect ratios for ANSI (17/22 and 11/17). On the one hand, they're simple fractions and not irrational numbers; on the other, they're different, so you can't just double the size of something printed on ANSI A/letter sized to fill ANSI B/tabloid size, the way you can go from A4 to A3.

Only a small subset of users will ever want to do that (since if you're printing text you probably need to re-typeset it to keep the type a good size for reading), but only a small subset of users actually care about the aspect ratio or exact dimensions of their paper at all, so whether it is 8.5 or 8.11 or 8.314159... inches doesn't really matter.

Symbiote 1 day ago|||
Many, many people want to double or halve documents.

Teachers at school would print (or photocopy) A4 in half to save paper, or doubled for the blind girl in my class.

I'd do it myself at university to save paper (money).

I don't print much nowadays, but I use this feature occasionally to print something as a booklet. I printed some lost board game rules on A3, since it was an A4 PDF.

saalweachter 1 day ago||
Sorry, I should have specified "and have it look perfect".

People do that all the time with US letter paper, print two to a sheet, you just end up with slightly wonky margins and usually everything being more like 40-45% the size it would be doubling up A4 paper. That use case isn't really hindered.

MrSkelter 1 day ago|||
You are wildly wrong in your assumption that the folding property has low value.

Every printed document, almost without exception, is printed on larger sheets which are later folded and cut.

Being able to do this precisely saves a vast amount of waste and time.

saalweachter 1 day ago|||
That's not a difference between ANSI and ISO paper sizes.

ANSI A (US letter) is a half sheet of ANSI B (ledger/tabloid) is a half sheet of C is a half sheet of D is a half sheet of E. When producing the paper, there is no waste of material or time, its the same process just starting with a slightly differently sized starting sheet (hypothetically; I am assuming that paper production has advanced beyond shaking screens of the largest handleable size by hand).

The difference is that ANSI A, C and E have aspect ratios of 17/22 (0.77) and ANSI B & D have aspect ratios of 11/17 (0.65), while all ISO sizes have aspect ratios of 1/sqrt(2) (0.71).

The waste comes in when scaling between adjacent sizes.

Going from A4 to A3, you can enlarge a document to 141% of the original size, and the margins will match.

Going from US letter to tabloid (ANSI A to B), the width of the paper is 129% larger and the height is 154% larger, so you can only enlarge your document to 129% the original size, and you have larger vertical margins, which is waste.

(But if you double it, from A to C, the problem goes away, because the aspect ratio is the same; so you can produce posters of multiple sizes, just not on every ANSI paper size at once.)

saalweachter 1 day ago||
Oh, you're talking about books, not sheets? My reply is probably all wrong, sorry.
saalweachter 23 hours ago|||
So, regarding books, why do you think the methods of printing books varies based on the size of the printing sheets?

Regardless of the size of your printing sheet, you choose a page size that's based on dividing your printing sheet in half N number of times, typeset your document to that page size (which you can't even skip for ISO paper sizes, because you pick your font size independent of the paper sizes), print 2^N pages per printing sheet in a particular pattern, fold and/or cut the sheet up, and bind.

There's no difference in waste or time regardless of your paper size choices, unless you do something silly or artistic, like choosing to print a square book or some shape not derived from halving your paper size.

dsign 1 day ago||||
I've been working with paper sizes a lot for the last year, and I've rarely thought about the square root of two ratio and when I've, it has been just to amuse myself. However, knowing that to get an A5 piece of paper I just need to cut/fold in half an A4, and that I can get to A3 and A2 by adding A4s, has been really useful. If I were in USA, didn't have that, and instead would have to install yet another new size system in my head[^1], I would despair.

[^1]: This is fun! https://papersizes.io/us/

runarberg 1 day ago||||
What bothers me mostly about American papersizes (I’m also a European immigrant) is that the ratio is not consistent between sizes. So if I design a poster, but want a couple of letter sized printouts for some reason, I have to create a whole new design, rather then just shrink everything down. Otherwise the margins get all wonky.
tonyedgecombe 1 day ago|||
One nice thing with Letter size is you can fit 80 columns of 10 dpi text with standard LaserJet margins. With A4 you have to squeeze the characters together slightly to make that fit.
roelschroeven 1 day ago|||
A[n] sizes are useful when enlarging or shrinking documents. Enlarge or shrink by muliples of sqrt(2) and there's always a fitting paper size available. Or you can put two A5s together on an A4, or two A4s on an A3.
thaumasiotes 2 days ago||
> I wonder if there's some way one can take advantage of the special properties of A[n] paper.

Not as a consumer. As a paper producer, you take advantage of it by cutting large sheets of paper in half to produce smaller sheets. Since you never sell any sizes that aren't clean multiples of each other like this, you've minimized the amount of paper you waste. That's the "advantage".

This was once the standard way of making paper; I don't know if it still is.

sitharus 1 day ago||
As a consumer I used to use it all the time, though it matters a lot less these days. Two A4 pages at 50% zoom (A5) fit on one A4. You could cut your printing cost for drafts in half by doing that, back when we had to actually print to check the layout. Same went for posters etc, and since the aspect ratio was preserved it was really handy to preview at home on A4 sheet before taking it to the print shop.

I’m sure you can do that on other size systems, but ISO paper sizing gives you accurate scaling.

Same goes for photocopies, photocopiers can scale copies so two A4 sheets copy to one, if you don’t need the same size.

thaumasiotes 1 day ago||
> Two A4 pages at 50% zoom (A5) fit on one A4.

This assumes there are no errors anywhere in the sizes or alignments of the A4 base page or either A5. Otherwise, you'll have an A5 running over an edge of the A4 or both A5s overlapping in the middle.

If your pages are designed with margins on the assumption that errors in the paper are common, this issue disappears because the margins cover for it. But still, if I wanted to do a display of two 8.5" x 11" sheets of paper, I'd want a board that was bigger than 17" x 11".

roryirvine 1 day ago|||
Sizing errors are essentially unheard of, and I've never seen anyone having any trouble with joining or folding ISO paper to go one size up/down. It's a completely normal operation, which people working in printing and publishing will routinely do without a second thought.

For commercial printing, there's the SRA paper series (Supplementary Raw) which is designed to accommodate bleed and alignment bars. An A4 glossy magazine, for example, might be printed on SRA3 and will be trimmed, folded, and stapled automatically at the end of the printing process. But that's a technical detail for the printer to care about - the publisher or designer might specify "folded A3 with bleeds", and the printer will choose the correct raw format to provide that within their printing system.

sitharus 13 hours ago|||
As the other commenter said, alignment issues have never been a problem.

If you're manually aligning the sheets on the photocopier bed maybe, but the edges are set up for that so it's never been an issue for me. However every photocopier I've used that was made since the late 90s lets you do the sheets individually so you can use the copier bed to align each one.

Because the ability to scale like this is so ubiquitous we're just all used to doing it.

xp84 1 day ago||
Pythagoras would appreciate her usage of his theorem, but I'd have just laid my papers diagonally across the screen to measure it directly without computing any square roots. Since I'm a yank, 11 + 11 + 5.5 would do quite nicely.
lewisjoe 1 day ago||
I use my phone when I want to measure stuff. Not an app, just the physical phone as a ruler. Almost always the dimensions of whatever phone I've got is published on the internet. It's a quick hack and better than carrying around A4 papers ;)
tveyben 1 day ago||
Ha - I have made so many measurements using an A4 with great accuracy that this monitor-story might as well have been me :-)

I never understood the US paper size system while living there (or since...!), don't get me started with feet and inches and 16'ths etc - ISO, metric and base10 is just so much more logical and easy to use...

neilv 1 day ago||
Elegant, sure, but... fold a sheet of US Letter (8.5 x 11.0 inches) in half, and you're on your way to a pirate hat. Fold and pull it several more times, and you have a boat.
shmeeed 1 day ago|
You can do the same with A4, of course. Metric and imperial pirates will have to battle it out.
zabzonk 1 day ago||
At one point on an international project I had to fly a box of UK A4 to the USA in my luggage so the Americans could check their software could cope with the different size. It did, but lugging it around was a pain - paper is heavy!
mitthrowaway2 1 day ago||
I wish we could buy A4 paper in North America! I find it surprising it's not available even in specialty stores. The rest of the world uses it!
bombcar 1 day ago|||
You may need to look for 8.27" x 11.69" - https://www.staples.com/hammermill-copy-plus-8-27-x-11-69-co...

Or you can buy a ream of legal-size and have a printshop slice it down (which is how I got ahold of B4 or B5 IIRC).

tanjtanjtanj 1 day ago||||
I don’t know what specialty stores you’re talking about but A4 is readily available at most stationary stores, or anything related to letter writing, pens, or paper. I got the A5 notebook I’m currently using at Barnes and Noble, they also have A4.

Heck, I’m pretty sure you could get a sheaf of it at any number of office supply stores right now if you wanted.

lproven 1 day ago||
* stationery :-)

Unless you have mobile paper shops. Could be handy, but seems a bit niche.

tanjtanjtanj 1 day ago||
Well I've never seen one move!
kevin_thibedeau 1 day ago||||
Kodak used to have an industrial printer partnership with Heidelberg. They would test their printers with pallet loads of A4. Most I've ever seen in the US.
ExoticPearTree 1 day ago||||
Yo do know all the jokes about how the US would anything as a measuring system except the metric system? Same with paper.
slowmovintarget 1 day ago|||
For printers?

I buy A4 notebooks all the time. I use fountain pens, so many of the notebooks and even loose paper with the proper sizing (coating, that is) usually come in EU sizes. Tomoe River... Clairfontaine... etc.

sitharus 1 day ago|||
I had the reverse, we had to get a ream of US Letter and corresponding envelopes sent over so we could ensure the layouts printed properly. Also some chequ… “checks” which were fascinating.
mystifyingpoi 1 day ago||
Couldn't they... just cut it according to A4 dimensions?
zabzonk 1 day ago||
An interesting question, but I think it would be very hard to do it accurately. Also, some of the reports the needed to print during testing were looong.
avalys 2 days ago||
Yeah, I’ve used a sheet of paper as a ruler too...

As regards metric/A* paper sizes, it seems like just a coincidence that this scheme resulted in a standard size that is useful for everyday documents, since it only works for powers of 2 and starts with the definition of 1 square meter. If a meter were 1.5x smaller or larger, then I don’t think there would be a standard size that works so well.

EDIT: Being curious about this, I did some more reading, and discovered there is a “B” series of paper sizes that maintain the same ratio relationship, but are exactly in between all the A sizes! That’s useful.

saalweachter 2 days ago||
The creators of metric weren't above buggering it to fit human scale needs.

Take the length/weight relationship.

Definitionally, it'd be way more elegant for the unit of mass to be based on the unit of length directly, a cubic meter of something, but having your base unit of mass be a ton wasn't going to fly.

So they instead tried for 1/100th of the meter and landed on the gram, but it turns out they misjudged and now your standard unit of weight is the prefixed kilogram instead, because everyone used kilograms instead.

Which is to say, if you didn't get a pretty good paper size out of the definition used for A0, someone would have found a different definition which did produce a pretty good paper size, and then declare it was the only natural one.

kijin 1 day ago||
I don't think anybody loses sleep over the kilogram issue because, well, it's metric after all. A kilogram is exactly 1000 grams, so the gram is just as perfectly well defined. Nothing would really change if they were to promote the gram to be the standard unit of mass (not weight!) someday.
Ekaros 1 day ago||
I am annoyed by it. We should be using gravs instead. Then there would not be this special unique unit with prefix as base unit.
silvestrov 1 day ago||
There is also a C series of sizes which are slightly larger than the A sizes and therefore useful as envelope sizes.
f_allwein 1 day ago|
Hint: The aspect ratio sqrt(2) should be quite convenient for foldable phones. Current ones seem to be more or less square if unfolded - what use case is that good for?
johanyc 1 day ago||
That would make the folded phone too wide though. More like a mini tablet.
Mike-14 1 day ago||
ref: Huawei Pura x
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