Posted by marojejian 19 hours ago
this is my best guess for the research cited (paywalled): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aea6130
If true, the next question is what caused the supply shock?
The supply shock sounds right.
I was volunteering at a state run institution, who had an addiction data science team, at the peak of the opioid crisis. I was developing ml models to predict patient dropout early in a 32 week program. The data and funding for such research was very scarce and it didn't go anywhere.
Treatment for opioid use disorder with medication is highly effective for 50% - 90% who respond well to treatment. The problem with the bottom 50% was early dropout, due to the lack of dissemination of proper treatment protocols and stigma attached to medication for treatment (methadone). I stopped following the work, I became too sensitive, it was pretty depressing.
The pandemic coupled with the increase in illicit fentanyl was just tragic in what it did to people. I remember reading the DEA research, where the precursor for fentanyl came from china and was manufactured and distributed from mexico. Mexico was also manufacturing high quality meth and displaced most of the meth labs in america, coming with increases in meth overdose during the same period. The fentanyl was so cheap compared to traditional heroin manufacturing.
I'm glad the supply seems to have dried up. It was nuts, what was going on a few years ago.
And you don't SEE any issues like in the US (or UK) around here at all.
Is cocaine and marijuana available from the government too? If not, what relevance is your comment?
Was this the first and only time you were waiting at a bus stop in Switzerland? If so, perhaps a notable story, if not then we'll need more information to conclude how bad this thug problem really is in Switzerland.
It's gotten a lot better over the last couple of years, but stating that you were offered drugs there is like being offended that you walked past a casino in Vegas.
If you ever see >1 person just standing around and not walking somewhere in London early in the morning just stay the fuck away from them. And if they start heading your way, run.
“Your child is a drug addict. They are addicted to opioids. I am the devil, without any care in the world other than making money. The choice is yours. Would you rather they inject clean heroin made by a pharmaceutical company in your country, or banish them forever as street addicts slavishly doing what it takes to score their fix?”
When facing the devil I’m voting for my tax dollars to give them clean heroin made by my country. That is what every parent wants when faced with an addicted child
You (wrongly) assume there’s no way out of an addiction, for example.
Or are you someone who assumes you just need to "use willpower" and "stop" being an addict? I assure you its not so easy with opiates.
Hordes of American soldiers were doing heroin in the Vietnam war.
When they came back to America we were expecting a massive addiction epidemic. It never happened. Overall, all the soldiers who came back lost the addiction.
Little known phenomenon about addiction that can’t be fully explained yet. What you say is true, but the person you responded to, what he says has an aspect of the truth as well. Look into it.
But you know, make it poetic or something. Suppose that's how religion still manages to thrive.
To me that seems to say cause of the opiod crisis doesn't exist, which probably isn't what you mean. But what do you mean?
A properly managed opioid addiction can be permanent. For a decade millions of Americans were addicted to opioids (OxyContin, Vicodin, etc.) prescribed by doctors. When the state cracked down they were forced to go on the street to get their medicine, which is when the opioid crisis exploded
I had a friend who was going through the program in Springfield Missouri, approximately 10 years ago, and the clinic literally increased his dose every week or two. They also had strict controls to make sure the patients actually take the full dose (because otherwise they might sell some of it on the street). So they were left with just 2 options, either drop out of the program and find their fix elsewhere, or accept a gradually increasing dose of methadone, forever. It's a sick program that is set up to make sure patients gradually descend deeper into addiction while they rake in huge profits. It's not really any different from what the drug dealers on the street are doing except that it's even more exploitative and dishonest. The doctors had zero plan for weaning people off of the methadone and some people had been on the program for years, with correspondingly huge doses doled out to them every time they came in. This was 10 years ago, at the time it cost something like $50 per visit, paid by the patient or possibly medicaid.
Edited slightly for clarity.
There are millions of people addicted to caffeine, the most popular psychoactive substance in the world, but as it usually doesn't prevent them to live their life and "be a productive member of society", no one cares of treating caffeine addiction, save for religious societies.
My point is -- is methadone addiction "better" than fentanyl in that regard? If yes, than that's ok.
I have no idea if this is common or just this one shady clinic but my data point of 1 still stands. If there is one, then given that this would be very profitable, it's highly likely that there are other clinics with similarly unethical policies.
If true that clinic needs to be reported. Patients have a right to taper down and exit treatment.
When a patient enters treatment at an OTP (Methadone clinic) they start with a small initial dose that is increased over the initial 30-60 days of treatment. Some clinics do this somewhat aggressively because they are trying to get the patient up to a "protective" dose. Methadone blocks the 'euphoric' effects of other opioids and protects patients who may still be taking other substance outside of their prescribed treatment program from overdose. Getting to a protective dose faster ends up saving patients lives.
So that maybe why the clinic was firm about trying to increase you friends dose.
OTPs are also required to offer counseling, the idea being methodone is used to address the physical aspects of addiction, and counseling is use to address the psychological/emotional side of addiction. Help patients build coping skills, figuring out what their triggers are, and find ways to stay out of those situations, etc. Some patients are instrested in that and eventually getting off of Methadone, some aren't. Some clinics provide really great counseling, some don't. The "dose and go" clinics are definitely a problem in the industry.
https://www.samhsa.gov/substance-use/treatment/options/metha...
I'll explain with liberal quotes from the document linked below. Dosages start out low to avoid risk to the patient, because "the most common reason for death or non-fatal overdose from methadone treatment is overly aggressive prescribing/dose-titration during the first two weeks of treatment."
Because of this, "methadone induction and titration MUST be approached slowly and cautiously. It may take several weeks to address opioid withdrawal effectively. It is important to be upfront with patients about this requirement and to discuss ways to cope with ongoing withdrawal and cravings, to maintain engagement in treatment."
The dose increase is described in the following paragraph:
"...methadone can be initiated without the prerequisite presence of opioid withdrawal. This may be preferential for some patients. The patient’s dose should be titrated with a “start low and go slow” approach, based on regular clinical assessment, until initial dose stability is reached – see specific recommendations below. A stable dose is achieved when opioid withdrawal is eliminated or adequately suppressed for 24 hours to allow patients to further engage in ongoing medical and psychosocial treatment. The ultimate goal is to work toward clinical stability."
In other words, for patients who are continuing to take other opioids, the methadone dose is increased over time to make it easier for the patient to reduce that other intake. Dosage is based on interviews with the patient.
Addicts are very good at subconsciously coming up with rationales for remaining addicted. It's much more likely that your friend found himself in that trap, than that he was going to an unethical clinic trying to keep him addicted "forever". That would be a major violation of the law and breach of medical ethics, and would be likely to come to the attention of regulators if it was a recurring pattern.
https://cpsm.mb.ca/assets/PrescribingPracticesProgram/Recomm...
Going cold turkey like you're saying he did is fine if (1) it doesn't kill you and (2) you're able to do it. For many people, it's just not very practical.
I don't think it's a good idea to demonize medical professionals for doing their jobs to the best of their abilities in the face of enormous challenges. That's the kind of thing that the conspiracy theorist and anti-science Robert F. Kennedy Jr. does, and it's not helping the US in any way at all.
Methadone is effective because it comes with lower respiratory fatigue.
If you have a nasty addiction, methadone is the gold standard for treatment. It's really all that's available to ween people down.
There are other medications for maintenance like buprenorphine and naltrexone. But you can't take those if you're in the throws of heavy addiction, you can die.
If people were aware in how many ways caffeine messes up a lot of people there would be. Exhaustion, migranes, anxieties, twitching, insomnia, mental issues to name a few. Most never attributed to caffeine but mysteriously going away after a person manges to kick the habit.
Isn't it hardship when people with guns come to you and burn your fields?
The article points to a 50% decrease in purity, which a habitual user would compensate for by taking twice as much. Lower average purity also increases the risk of inconsistent purity, where rare batches are unexpectedly strong and carry high accidental overdose risk. Less pure fentanyl floating around might mean lower chances of unsuspecting non-fentanyl drug users being poisoned with it, but it's hard to see how this could cut into overall overdose cases.
> deaths dropped months before purity did
That's a plausible lag: credible purity figures are not sourced from Mexican drug cartels. They come from laboratories at the end of a long chain of custody complicated by legal machinations, dealing with contraband having no provenance beyond its date of seizure. That it takes only "months" to wend its way though the byzantine and corrupt legal system, and the bankers hours academic process of laboratory professionals, is actually admirable.
> which a habitual user would compensate for by taking twice as much
Habitual users are operating in a market, seeking value. They cannot afford to simply double their spend, and I'll give you one guess as to how quickly purity drops are reflected by price drops in the narcotics business, because that's all a person of sound mind should need.
No, when the purity dropped, users paid the same and got less, and died less. Believe me, I understand why this finding is unwelcome: it serves to put arrows in the "drug war" quiver, and that is anathema, in my mind as well. But knee-jerk thinking, ultimately, isn't helpful. Further, I have complete faith that the ability of drug dealers and drug users of America to produce disturbing body counts will not be diminished for long.
I’ll be first to admit I’m generally pretty ignorant on this topic but I’ve heard a plausible explanation for how Fentanyl is actually used.
A medical professional shared with me that Fentanyl is too potent to be consumed as is. So generally, dealers use it as an additive. They lace other drugs with trace amounts of to make them more addictive. It’s the MSG of drugs.
So while ODing on say, drug A is possibly with 5 uses at once. When laced with Fentanyl, a person might OD in just 3 uses (because Fentanyl is much more potent than the actual drug the user bought).
Hence, less Fentanyl = less chance of ODing.
To be blunt it was total bullshit. Pharmaceuticals have an extremely wide range of dosages. Fentanyl is on the extreme low end, benadryl an adult might take 25 mg or 50 mg, tylenol an adult might take 500 mg, and something like amoxicillin an adult might take as much as 3000 mg for a severe infection. There are standard, extremely reliable ways to prepare pills that contain the correct dosage regardless of the potency of the pure chemical.
Obviously fentanyl (or its precursor) is imported (ie smuggled) in highly pure form in order to minimize the size of the shipment. Obviously it can't be consumed in that form.
The combination of being potent and cheap to smuggle lends itself nicely to cutting other (more expensive) products with it. That's false advertising but it won't typically kill you in and of itself.
When laymen who don't know what they're doing, don't have access to proper facilities, and certainly can't set up proper quality controls process something that potent it's no wonder that things go wrong and people die. If (for example) the same victims had purchased fentanyl from a pharmacy (as opposed to whatever it was they thought they were consuming) they almost certainly would not have had any issues. Almost no one ODs intentionally.
The point is that it's not "fentanyl is toxic so you OD" it's "the person compounding the pill messed up the dosage, you took more than you thought, so you OD". This could happen just as easily with any other drug. The danger here is due to pills not containing the dosage that the consumer believes them to.
It couldn't happen "just as easily" with any other drug.
The relevant technique is called "serial dilution" and it's regularly practiced in intro level chemistry and molecular biology classes. An otherwise untrained undergrad, using only a pipette and a volumetric flask, can consistently and reliably dilute samples to nanogram per liter levels. The error accumulates as some (exceedingly small) percentage of the target value per dilution step so even after 10 or more steps the error will remain well within manageable range.
The issue is not fentanyl having a power level over 9000 or whatever other nonsense. It's people who don't know what they're doing, don't have access to a proper setup, and have no realistic way to implement a proper quality control regime manufacturing pharmaceuticals.
Fentanyl didn't kill all these people. Objectively poor public policy indirectly led to the deaths of those who violated the law just as it did during prohibition.
The article's theory is compelling but given the incredible amount of deaths, thousands upon thousands of deaths in BC alone, I wonder if the rate of death is declining simply because we're running out of people to kill with our indifference.
I wouldn't call it indifference. It's the drug policies that we've very intentionally adopted in the west that result in people purchasing from the black market. It's about as indifferent as the deaths due to denatured alcohol poisoning during prohibition when the additive was silently switched.
I am not convinced we can claim what you think with any level of confidence.
I think that is partly because enough people consider those addicted to drugs to be subhuman - enough don't care much what happens to the addicted people. IMHO in that's because we a large political movement encourages indifference to those different from us, whether the difference is race, politics, gender/sexuality, nationality, or anything else.
Drug dealers were lacing things with fentanyl to make them more addictive. They were putting too much in and killing people by accident. This was bad for business in 3 ways
1) they could have saved money by using less fentanyl
2) they were killing their customers, as well as reducing the customer base this has a reputational risk.
3) They were attracting too much public interest in their activities
Therefore they found that they make more money by putting less in.
Not a drug expert, don't live in US, never took fentanyl. I just picked these 'facts' out of the comments. Before anyone says, 'you don't know what to you are talking about' in the sweet way that has crept into hn, I really don't, and don't claim to.
But this attitude smells an awful lot like the stupid person's eugenics. Let's not cater to it.
It does not matter to me if Elon Musk makes another billion dollars if I am making more as well. That does not cause "despair" to a well adjusted person.
Extreme poverty on the other hand (which has been decreasing) does cause these deaths. When people have nowhere left to go and no hope, they to turn to drugs.
Mental illness is another cause. I wonder if we should have gotten rid of asylums.
As it's a pretty simple hypothesis to test and that it was not maybe imply that the conclusion is politically motivated. Supply-shock imply that something was done and it worked, but that the problem solved itself is not as palatable for someone politically motivated like an administration.
The overprescription of opioids in the US (especially in the past) is hardly a secret.
My point being : killing your customer en masse is bad business practice in the long run. (Or even in the medium run.)
So, the drug dealer's best interest is to reduce the potency of the drug, therefore limiting the overdoses but keeping the customers alive, and willing to get the next dose.
If it happens when the prices are high, and you're able to cut your product and see it with a higher margin, it's even more value for the sharehol... Sorry, wrong analogy.
Anyway, is the number of people _using_ fentanyl also going down ? Where are the quarterly sales number published ? What's the trend ? When is the IPO ?
One problem mentioned was that other drugs were being laced with fentanyl. Simply supply a licensed, guaranteed clean version through a legal source at a lower price?
Then people who want actual fentanyl, supply that in the same way too.