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Posted by alienchow 11 hours ago

My Home Fibre Network Disintegrated(alienchow.dev)
184 points | 165 comments
DannyBee 2 hours ago|
I have fs.com armored cable installed for 10 years now. Different times and spools. It is all in perfect shape. They test all their cable. Something is almost certainly disintegrating your cable. If you have any spare old pvc pipe or something in the basement, hit it with a hammer and see if it is brittle (the hammer should bounce). If it is brittle, I would not hang out in the basement until you figure out what is going on.

One random guess other than gases of various sorts: If you have the lights on a lot, it's possible you have lighting that is not properly uv filtered somehow.

(It theoretically could be lots of heat/humidity vs certain types of cable jackets, but that would be obviously noticeable most of the time)

The fiber and even the armor itself looks fine in your pictures and I bet the error rate is zero. Outside of bending, i can't see how you could damage the fiber when the armor is in perfect shape. That armor will unravel if you really damaged it. The speed thing is not how fiber works. It's hard to get marginal link enough to generate retries that degrade your speed by 10%. Most of the time either you have full speed link, no link, or so many errors speed is zero. The optics almost always have rx/TX signal strength DDM you can look at

Also did you say you direct buried it in cement? If so it's not rated for that. Direct burial and concrete tight/safe are not the same thing at all, not the least of reasons being concrete is highly alkaline (ph12-13) when poured

russdill 10 hours ago||
If you buy a consumer product labeled "military grade" you are buying snake oil. And not just snake oil, incredibly over priced snake oil.
1970-01-01 10 hours ago||
Exactly. It's a very successful marketing play on MIL-SPEC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Standar...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_grade

somat 10 hours ago|||
Military-grade just means it has a spec, now, I will admit having a spec is nice, very nice. but in general it says little about the actual quality of the item. And if the spec can't be found or there is no spec. Probably best to stay away, in those cases they are not even selling you the snake oil but the sound of it sloshing in the bottle.
culi 8 hours ago||
There is no legal requirement for it to refer to MIL-SPEC. More often than not it is just pure marketing without any actual spec tied to it
OneDeuxTriSeiGo 4 hours ago|||
Yeah if you see something labelling itself "MIL-SPEC", that's grade A snake oil bullshit.

That said military spec stuff is actually generally a good sign that something is of higher quality than random off the shelf garbage but only if you know there's a specific spec you want it to work with. And most of the time you aren't even necessarily looking for a MIL-STD (standard) but rather a MIL-PRF (performance rating/spec).

So like if something is "MIL-SPEC" run. But if you see say a spool of fiber that is "MIL-STD-1678 compliant" and more importantly "MIL-PRF-49291 compliant" and "MIL-PRF-85054 compliant", that's probably a really good sign that it'll do its job. The former PRF documenting perf requirements for the fiber itself and the latter PRF the cabling/sheath's corrosion and deterioration resistance.

It's the military so odds are it'll probably cost extra for that and it'll still kinda suck but it'll suck in exactly the way they promised.

throw0101c 3 hours ago||
TIL:

* https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NSWC-Dahlgr...

* https://landandmaritimeapps.dla.mil/programs/MilSpec/ListDoc...

hsbauauvhabzb 6 hours ago|||
Military grade afaict just implies the military ‘could’ use it, by that definition almost any company sells military grade products or services, except companies who explicitly would not sell to the military.
bluGill 4 hours ago||
the military often writes a spec and then refuses to buy anything that doesn't meet it. Most soldiers are not going to walmart to get supplies - even f walmart sells that type of thing.
hsbauauvhabzb 3 hours ago||
I’m not talking about what the military could or would use, I’m talking about what it takes for something to be called military grade.
chneu 8 hours ago|||
Basically same with any company with "Patriot" or "Veteran" in the name.

It's just a weak pander to people's weak egos. Freedumb, if you will.

zeristor 7 hours ago|||
I’m waiting for “Titanium Sourdough” optical fibres myself.
harvey9 7 hours ago||
Well those materials are verifiable at least.
Forgeties79 24 minutes ago||||
I don’t disagree but it’s not hard to understand why people think “military grade” means it’s better. “Military grade” communicates tough/durable/stress tested to a lot of people. Veteran/patriot isn’t an indicator of build quality, even if it is also pandering to a certain sensibility.
dismalpedigree 8 hours ago||||
Tactical everything!
mlrtime 3 hours ago|||
Not really if it is owned by Veterans. There are many veteran owned businesses and I see nothing wrong with it.
oliyoung 8 hours ago|||
What if it's Military Grade Snake Oil?
anonym29 10 hours ago|||
Military grade: mass produced by the lowest bidder
snowmobile 9 hours ago|||
I only use handmade artisanal networking equipment.
kakwa_ 3 hours ago||||
Well, not mass produced enough.

Common mass produced products manufacturers have incentives to not mess-up too badly: recalls or warranties on such scales are a nightmare.

With military contracts, its a paid maintenance opportunity.

daedrdev 8 hours ago|||
There are plenty of things where mil spec is extremely strict and high quality. They wont be sold to consumers as they are priced accordingly
esseph 8 hours ago||
A company can not sell a product to consumers cheaper than it can sell to the federal government, and the federal government contract normally comes first. A lot of the stuff you can buy (minus restricted items), it'll just cost you.
bluGill 4 hours ago||
They can't sell the same thing but they can sell something slightly different. put a different type of paint on it and you can sell for different prices.
donw 9 hours ago|||
"Military-grade" has a very specific meaning: it's at least 10x overpriced and painted black.
mrexroad 6 hours ago|||
I personally look for the 1,000x overpriced space marine spec so I can get it in white.
ekropotin 9 hours ago|||
Why black? Shouldn’t it be camouflage?
reactordev 9 hours ago||
Drop it in some mud
TacticalCoder 2 hours ago|||
But shitload of vendors won't bother and just sell you a "military grade" or, even in non-english speaking countriess, say a "MIL-SPEC Daniel Defense AR-15". They won't list every spec in detail. And they make good AR-15s (but not cheap).

Anyone who thinks the triggers listed as MIL-SPEC from, say, Geissele here:

https://geissele.com/triggers.html

aren't totally fine is out of his mind. They're amazing triggers, widely used and loved.

And they don't say which specs its passing (at least not on the main page): it's just MIL-SPEC.

As a sidenote my very best laptop passes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-810 but most people will just say it's "military grade" or "MIL-SPEC".

Guess what? Its screen never broke overnight like the one of my MacBook M1 Air did (the infamous "bendgate").

I can bend my LG Gram's screen and it's keeps working fine. I can let it drop. Friend who sold it to me stepped on it when he woke up once.

There's a very big difference between saying: "There are shady vendors" and saying "Military specs do not exists and it's impossible for consumers to buy items passing military specifications".

Yes, there are dishonest vendors.

Yes, military specs do exist.

And, yes, it's possible for consumers to buy products passing (and even surpassing) actual military specs.

ErroneousBosh 4 hours ago||
If you buy a commercial product labelled "military grade", you are also buying snake oil.

"Military grade" is generally shit. It's built down to a price, manufactured the cheapest possible way, so they can get the lowest possible tender submitted. Bonus prize if the manufacturer is owned by either someone already in government, or with close ties to someone in government.

The only "military grade" devices I own are some woefully unsuccessful radios, which failed in the market because they were actually good - easy to use, reliable, and easy to repair - which made them about 5% more expensive than the cheapest option which was made by a company part-owned by the government and part-owned by someone who donates heavily to the Conservatives.

alienchow 2 hours ago||
Thanks HN folks for all the comments. To clarify a bit, the cables are pulled through PVC conduits under the flooring before being buried in cement. Currently the hypotheses for why the cable disintegrated so quickly is hydrolysis and paint solvents. Singapore is extremely humid but this doesn't explain why the exposed cabling on the other end is still healthy and not crumbly.

The second possibility is that I keep the leftover wall paints (Nippon Paint Vinilex 5000) in the same room and have noticed that much of the solvents have evaporated. It is possible that the solvents in the air might have caused the cable to fail in 3 years. It would explain why the other ends that aren't exposed to the air inside the bomb shelter aren't falling apart.

Some other learnings from this. Buried cabling should always be permanently fixed and attached to a patch panel instead of dangling in the open. That was the original plan but I figured it wouldn’t be an issue. I was wrong. Always measure exact length of buried fibre cabling as they aren’t meant to be stored in loops.

voxlax 2 hours ago|
Oh, sry! Your comment came after I posted mine. I had similar experience with a bottle of organic thinner for paints.
jandrese 10 hours ago||
Looking at the pictures it looks like the fiber itself might be inside of that spiral metal conduit in the middle and the outside is just abrasion protection. There are way too many strands for that outside bit to be the fiber. It's obviously bad that the outside plastic disintegrated, but it looks like the buried cables might be fine.

I have a similar problem on my car where the 12v wiring is disintegrating like this because the manufacturer tried to switch to a more environmentally friendly wiring. Now the wire jackets turn to dust at the slightest touch or if they vibrate too much. I'm forever tracking down intermittent shorts in the wiring harness.

madaxe_again 7 hours ago||
The metal coil will hold the actual fibre itself, yes - after a few more layers of protection. This is what is usually called “armoured” cable and is suitable for suspension and direct in ground. Dunno why he’s using it indoors.

Honestly, this writeup is… weird? Dude doesn’t know you can terminate fibre at home with like $50 of gear?

I had the fucking fox attack a freshly laid 500 meter line, literally the day before I was going to stuff it in conduit and bury it. Didn’t just break the fibre, she (I know this fox, well) chomped it into pieces, hauled on the exposed Kevlar, generally had a party.

Did I despair? Did I launch a baby complete with bathwater into the sun?

No. I bought a cleaver, some alcohol wipes, some stripping pliers and a whole bunch of mechanical terminators.

Needn’t have worried. Repaired it, outdoors, first attempt, in the rain, and have since buried it - no problems five months on.

alienchow 7 hours ago||
Hey actually I didn't know! It's my very first time dealing with fibre networking so I just maxed out the supposed durability specs. I figured I'd rather go overkill than regret not having done so. Ironic I know.

Unfortunately I can't easily dig the cable out and bury it again in this case. I'll have to figure out how to pull a new cable using the existing cable through the PVC conduits as the cable shares a larger conduit with multiple other fibre and Ethernet cables. The whole project was orchestrated remotely in a different timezone with me giving the electricians instructions over WhatsApp photos and audio recordings, so that limited what I could realistically control onsite back then. Often the contractors would proceed with a do first ask questions later approach while I was still asleep. The networking project was holding up the entire home renovation so everything was learnt and planned in a short amount of time.

AFAIK fibre splicing and terminating tools are very expensive. Do point me in the right direction for the $50 tools and I could go get some and DIY.

Sesse__ 4 hours ago|||
> AFAIK fibre splicing and terminating tools are very expensive.

They're more like $600 expensive than $6000 expensive these days. For very low budget, you could go with a mechanical (aerobic) splice; it's more loss, less robust and takes up more space, but doesn't require a fusion splicer.

adinisom 7 hours ago|||
If you want to pull another cable:

- secure a string to the old cable

- pull the cable out the other end, pulling the string through

- secure the string to the new cable

- pull the string out the other end, pulling the new cable into position

EvanAnderson 6 hours ago|||
Pull a string alongside the new cable, too, and tie it off on both ends. Always leave a pull string in the conduit.
rovr138 2 hours ago||
> a string

At this point, multiple. Just in case.

fried-gluttony 1 hour ago||||
Excuse me to hijack this comment adinisom.

I wanted to reach you regarding your comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44547866 Would you be willing to maybe elaborate on the problems caused - I've planned to adopt Miro Sameks for an application? DM me via my about me, if interested. Would be very thankful.

alexfoo 6 hours ago||||
You forgot to also tie another piece of string to the new cable so that you pull the new cable AND this other bit of string through.

This gives you a piece of string in the conduit run to be able to pull through the next thing days/weeks/years later.

jaeckel 4 hours ago|||
> [...] a string [...]

Does someone have a recommendation for a specific material the string should be made of?

upofadown 3 hours ago|||
Back in my day the local telephone company used waxed lacing cable for that sort of thing[1]. These days it seems that polypropylene string is popular (search on "conduit pull string").

You basically want something that is slippery and will tend to not get stuck. I have used Dacron fishing line, but that is mostly because I had a bunch of it laying around.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_lacing

relaxing 3 hours ago|||
They also make bottles of cable pulling lubricant for this purpose.
sgarland 2 hours ago||
AKA boy butter [0].

0: http://www.electricalslang.com/Slang/boy%20butter

ErroneousBosh 4 hours ago|||
Yes, the whole thing is built like bike brake cables, with a spirally metal support core, the goodies up the inside, and then a nylon braid and PVC jacket over the top.

I have issues with the PVC-jacketed cables under the bonnet of my nearly-30-year-old Landrover, where the plasticiser has been baked out of the insulation and they've gone brittle. Worst affected are the wires to the fuel injectors and the lambda sensors, presumably because the former are at the top of the engine and get reflected heat off the bonnet, and the latter because they're near the literally red-hot exhaust downpipes.

That's okay for an old vehicle that you'd expect to repair, though.

I've seen the same problem in three-year-old Toyotas, and that is Just Not On.

Infernal 9 hours ago|||
Your car wouldn’t happen to be a Volvo would it?
jandrese 8 hours ago|||
Mini Cooper. From what I've heard it's a BMW thing.
chaboud 8 hours ago||
BMW and Toyota have famously used bio-derived insulation reported to be like catnip for rodents.

The bio-oil plasticizers also migrate out more quickly in thermal cycling than the old dead dinosaurs approach. Hilariously, when I asked my mechanic about getting an M5, he laughed and explained that the radiator components are known to turn brittle and crack after 5-6 years because of this.

(I don't envy automotive folks. The stuff they have to deal with is next level.)

userbinator 8 hours ago|||
1990s Mercedes would be my guess.
esseph 7 hours ago||
The outside strands are kevlar. The fibers are inside the armored core often inside another jacket.
ZeroConcerns 7 hours ago||
There's no link to the data sheet of the actual cable, but, yeah, looks like this should not have happened in such a short timeframe unless there's something really funny going on in that room, like ambient temperatures above 50 degC.

Another thing that should not have happened is installing the cable in loops in this way: any 'building' or 'underground' type cable needs to be of the exact length required at the demarcation point, fastened properly to prevent movement and terminated on a proper patch panel (can be a one-port box-type thingy for small setups), from where you use regular patch cords to connect your equipment.

(Loops are definitely allowed though, but that use case is mostly for aerial fiber to enable repair splices, and there are some very specific bend-radius and strain relief requirements, which, again should be spelled out in the cable data sheet)

Sesse__ 4 hours ago||
> any 'building' or 'underground' type cable needs to be of the exact length required at the demarcation point, fastened properly to prevent movement and terminated on a proper patch panel (can be a one-port box-type thingy for small setups)

How exact is exact? :-) I once had to reterminate some fiber that was cut and terminated to exact length, which means there was literally two centimeters from the wall to the connector. I literally had to squeeze the fiber splicer up against the wall to have a chance at splicing on new pigtails, but I had two mis-cuts and I was hosed. :-)

EvanAnderson 5 hours ago|||
> Another thing that should not have happened is installing the cable in loops in this way: any 'building' or 'underground' type cable needs to be of the exact length required at the demarcation point...

This hasn't been my experience with fiber entrance cables terminated by ILECs, Spectrum, and Lumen. They typically leave a significant service loop bound to the cable ladder or backer board-- usually 15-20 feet.

layla5alive 1 hour ago|||
I have a > 75ft service loop on a 48-count underground burial fiber from the street.
ZeroConcerns 5 hours ago|||
Depends on the type of cable assembly. If it's fiber strands inside a soft-ish plastic jacket (and most of the cable is in fact in conduit), a service loop is fine, albeit a bit pointless for most repair scenarios. For armored cables (which are significantly stiffer), you only do these loops in situations where you expect to need to replace significant sections (think 'getting hit by a falling tree' or 'particularly aggressive rodents') and you have the space.
deno 5 hours ago||
Both tree and rat took out my fiber so the loops are definitely useful. If your fiber goes through your whole house it's significantly less work to only have to reconnect one end instead of redoing the whole run.
alienchow 6 hours ago|||
Thanks, I really appreciate the SMEs commenting here. I'm learning a lot.

Definitely learnt it the hard way this time. You're right that buried cables should be exact in length and fastened to a patch panel. I'll probably look into better conduit design as well for the next time (in 15 years?). Having shared conduits means I would risk damaging other cables if I tried to pull a new cable through.

ZeroConcerns 6 hours ago||
Good conduit and patch panel design is definitely key for a happy life. Leaving some extra space/capacity initially is also a good idea, especially since (unless you're covering truly great distances) there's not exactly a lot of innovation in the single mode fibre space: strands you put in today (even if it's 'the cheapest stuff your vendor sells most of', which is generally my philosophy for selecting cables) will still be viable a few years down the road.

Sharing/in-place-repurposing conduit is not something I'd recommend, but if you must, leave a few dummy cables (a.k.a. 'pieces of string') on the initial install...

gertrunde 7 hours ago||
From one of the photos, the cable spec "G657A2" is visible on the outside - and specs listed for that indicate it's "bending insensitive single-mode fibre", apparently it can tolerate 10 loops around 15mm mandrel. (Which does surprise me).

But yes, agreed, a lot of "Er... why would you do it like that?" bits.

ZeroConcerns 6 hours ago||
Those 10 loops definitely only apply to the single mode fibre itself, not the entire assembly with armor and everything, because that's just... physically impossible.

Cables for direct burial only like to be bent once or twice, and then only gently. Anything else may very well break the armor (whether plastic or metal), after which all bets are off.

Still, for the outer jacket to become brittle to the extent described, something else is required, which may very well turn out to be "shoddy manufacturing"...

johnboiles 10 hours ago||
That seems incredibly fast for plastic to degrade like that. I wonder if you could have something generating ozone in there.
alienchow 10 hours ago||
I'm not sure either. It's not an air tight bomb shelter and it's used like an average storeroom, storing stuff like winter jackets, suitcases and paint. I do use small amounts of Calcium Chloride based dessicants to keep the room dry.
mixologic 9 hours ago|||
Have you checked for Radon?
mzhaase 6 hours ago||||
Water based or solvent based paint?
alienchow 6 hours ago||
Should be solvent based.
chneu 8 hours ago|||
If it's underground at all, check for radon.
CamperBob2 8 hours ago||
Radon is a noble gas. It's not going to affect fiber or wiring... but yes, if you're going to spend much time down there, definitely a good idea to check for it.
VanTheBrand 7 hours ago||
Radon is radioactive. The alpha particles it emits can break down polymers and degrade plastics.
bluGill 4 hours ago||
Interseting - I have high radon (mitigeted in the house via a fan), if I burry fibre what will I need to do to get something that will work? I have an outbuilding that I want to give internet.
adzm 10 hours ago||
My first thought exactly. I know someone who inadvertently melted a ton of stuff with overuse of an ozone generator, similar kind of effect
vbernat 7 hours ago||
From the photos, it does not look like the fibers themselves are damaged. You should check the error rate on both sides. If it is 0, the not optimal values of your speedtest are not related to your fiber. If it is not 0, the more likely issues are in order: connectors to clean (buy a cleaning pen), bend radius somewhere, faulty optics, then the fiber. You can also pay a professional to run an OTDR on your fiber. It would show where the fiber is degraded.
joecool1029 10 hours ago||
I’ve had this failure on soft-touch usb cables from the 2000’s, not related to movement, just in a box in room temperature storage they disintegrate like this. It was described to me as thermoplastic elastometer degradation but I’m not really satisfied with that vague of an answer. Main comment thread when I first jumped in to discuss it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28054090
golem14 9 hours ago|
I have a couple of USB cables from the 2000's like this, some of them original apple cables. But most are fine.

While some show brittleless, more plstics goes gooey and tarry - especially some ABS coating that makes the material more grippable,like computer mice or binoculars.

borlox 4 hours ago||
Regarding the last few sentences about the speedtest, Fibre doesn’t degrade in a way that you get 30 to 40% line speed. DSL did that, fibre doesn’t.

Speedtests for 10G are complicated and will show low numbers because of all the different TCP parameters and schedulers. Sometimes because peering links of your ISP or the speedtest providers are saturated.

mlrtime 3 hours ago|
When I had 5Gbs fiber with a UDM I could never get it to speed test close to 5Gbps.

My internet network would would test at theoretical limits with proper iperf2 settings. I tried using public iperf servers but wasn't successful.

kev009 10 hours ago|
There are very survivable fiber cables designed for stage and A/V setups for instance, and even "real" military grade ones. But the common thin LZSH stuff is surprisingly resilient in my experience, so long as it didn't kink the OP would probably have been fine with a "standard" cable. In any case I would always try to place fiber in a place where it can be re-pulled.. conduit, tray, or a plenum.

I bought a big spool of 6 strand Corning stuff a long time ago for various projects, the cost and diameter don't increase much to add some protection lines even if you never imagine using them they can save you a re-pull if you bugger something up in construction.

bananadonkey 7 hours ago||
The contractors were probably dubious of that resiliency given their lack of experience. I recently ran fibre in my house and have to say I was pleasantly surprised that fiber patch cables (unarmored) can survive a good pull through a duct.
madaxe_again 7 hours ago||
They can survive a 500m pull (in 100m stages, or the friction is too high) in mud and rain, through active water line.

Honestly, fibre, even unarmoured with just a standard Kevlar & HDPE sleeve is hardy stuff. When I first started mucking around with it a few years ago I was like “don’t breathe on it too hard”, now I’m like “tie the fibre in a knot on the bullbar and pull it with the truck”.

Sesse__ 7 hours ago||
> Honestly, fibre, even unarmoured with just a standard Kevlar & HDPE sleeve is hardy stuff.

To be fair, it also got a lot better in the last 20–30 years. In particular, we now have bend-insensitive fiber for the last mile (G.657.A1/G.657.A2) and in general, we just figured out how to make it more robust.

madaxe_again 7 hours ago||
You can kink the shit out of fibre and it’s fine. Like, I’ve accidentally managed ~15mm diameter loops while pulling and then proceeded to yank on them. The Kevlar takes the brunt. Only time I broke a fibre was when it was me and two other guys pulling on it as hard as possible - and instead of moving it went “ping”.
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