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Posted by s_dev 1/23/2026

European Alternatives(european-alternatives.eu)
810 points | 512 commentspage 2
roter 1/23/2026|
Somewhat similar for Canada:

https://worktree.ca/taffer/canadian-alternatives

202508042147 1/23/2026||
They should add EU membership as alternative to CUSMA. I really like the idea!
sodapopcan 1/24/2026||
Whoa, was unaware of this! Thanks!
retired 1/23/2026||
Is there a European alternative for this website?
breezykoi 1/23/2026||
journalduhacker.net (in french)
fsflover 1/23/2026|||
Perhaps Lemmy may count based on distributed ActivityPub protocol with some servers in Europe.
noodlebird 1/23/2026|||
techposts.eu i reckon
timeon 1/23/2026||
Seems to be US-hosted.
culi 1/24/2026||
What makes you say that? It was explicitly created as an EU alternative to HN by a person from the Netherlands. They posted about it on HN a few days ago.

I haven't found anything public about where its hosted

timeon 1/24/2026||
https://hosting-checker.net/websites/techposts.eu

or:

whois "$(ping -c 1 techposts.eu | awk -F'[()]' '/PING/{print $2}')"

FireInsight 1/24/2026||
Fly.io probably serves in on the edge, and so it always appears to be near the request origin.
timeon 1/24/2026||
I was probably not clear in my original comment. My point, in context of this thread, was that it is hosted in US-based company. So things like Cloud Act still apply.
BenoitEssiambre 1/23/2026|||
Its founder lives in europe so there's that.
s_dev 1/23/2026||
I think he means Hacker News rather than EU Alternatives.
badsectoracula 1/23/2026|||
Paul Graham lives in UK.
s_dev 1/23/2026||
That doesn't make Hacker News European. It is American. Y Combinator is American even if pg is originally British. Stripe is American but its founders are Irish.
badsectoracula 1/23/2026|||
Yeah i know, my response was a clarification that BenoitEssiambre was referring to the founder, not the site itself. My interpretation of the "so there's that" part of the message, was an acknowledgement that Hacker News is hosted in US, but if nothing else the founder is living in UK.
nxpnsv 1/23/2026||||
Someone should make news.eucombinator.eu…
BenoitEssiambre 1/23/2026|||
I also mean Hacker News
drnick1 1/23/2026||
The irony is that European alternatives are still in English, when no European country (since the departure of the U.K. from Europe) actually uses that language.
nolok 1/23/2026|||
The amount of things wrong is impressive

You're confusing Europe and the EU

You're forgetting about Ireland and Malta

You're thinking that because the UK left the EU it will change the main language countries use to speak to each others

drnick1 1/23/2026|||
> You're thinking that because the UK left the EU it will change the main language countries use to speak to each others

Yes, and that's precisely the irony. Europeans still need to subject themselves to Anglo "cultural imperialism" or absolutely nothing works, starting with communication across national borders.

schubidubiduba 1/23/2026|||
The english language has ceased to be something unique to the anglocultural world a while ago. You're making this out to be much more than it is
throw__away7391 1/23/2026||||
And the US still uses Arabic numerals in spite of banning visas for basically every Arab country in the world.
palata 1/23/2026||||
> Europeans still need to subject themselves to Anglo "cultural imperialism" or absolutely nothing works, starting with communication across national borders.

Do you have a single clue about Europe? That's not true at all.

microtonal 1/23/2026||||
First, we co-opted English. It’s now ours as well. Thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English

Besides that, besides my native language and English, I had German and French in school (which are required topics in our country). So I can speak the native language of all nearby countries.

Auf Wiedersehen!

drnick1 1/24/2026||
I would hesitate to even call that English: "Many of the features suggested to be characteristic of Euro-English could be identified as learners' mistakes."

In short, it's just like Chinglish.

timeon 1/23/2026|||
We actually already use Globish that has different idioms and so on. End we can express different kind of informations there.
aleph_minus_one 1/23/2026|||
> You're forgetting about Ireland and Malta

In both countries English is only one of the official languages.

nolok 1/23/2026|||
And how does that change anything to what is being said ? English is only one of the official languages of the UN or NATO or the WHO or ...
anigbrowl 1/23/2026||||
Hardly anyone uses Irish in daily life or for official purposes, notwithstanding its official status. 99% of the Irish you hear outside a classroom is performative.
ben_w 1/23/2026|||
Mae hyn yn wir o fewn y DU hefyd.

:P

jacquesm 1/23/2026||||
A language is a tool, not a nationality or a border.

Your average educated European speaks at least three, one of which is English because it is a good language to have because it is the language of international commerce. This has been the case since many decades and has nothing to do with using the language internally.

But: many people do use it internally. French tourists abroad are more likely to use English than French. European colleagues usually standardize on English, both for their communications as well as for their documentation needs.

Scientific literature is predominantly in English (at least, for now).

So there are many reasons to use English which have nothing to do with allegiance or dependence.

pepinator 1/23/2026||
> Your average European speaks at least three

ok ok I get the point but let's not exaggerate

palata 1/23/2026|||
It was edited to "average educated European", whatever that means.

But I think two languages is probably not exagerating. And not only in Europe. People have their native language and usually an international one (in Europe that would be English).

And then there are similar languages. Say a Spanish person will speak Spanish and English, and possibly French/Italian/Portuguese, so that quickly goes up to 3. Also in many countries there are already multiple languages (a portion of Spain speaks Catalan and Spanish as native languages, then probably English as international language, and they are probably not bad in French/Italian because of the similarity).

Same in the northern country that are all germanic languages: Swedish is pretty similar to Norwegian for instance, both are not too far to German, and everybody there speaks English fluently.

And then if you go in the Eastern Europe... like in Slovenia people seem to all speak 5 languages, it's insane :-).

pepinator 1/24/2026||
I agree that a lot of people speak two languages. But man, I've lived in several countries in Europe for many years, and even the average university student doesn't really speak English (and I work at the university so I interact with many of them). Even in countries like Belgium where there're three official languages!

However, I'd agree with that the average educated person can somewhat communicate ideas in a second language. This is what polls usually show, around 30% to 50% of people.

palata 1/24/2026||
> I've lived in several countries in Europe for many years, and even the average university student doesn't really speak English

Have you tried any Scandinavian country for instance?

pepinator 1/24/2026||
no, but we're talking about Europe on general. and the initial claim is surely false in countries like Spain, France, Poland and Belgium
retired 1/23/2026||||
It has been edited to "average educated European". If going by tertiary education, that is about 30% to 35% of the European population. I wouldn't be surprised if that group speaks three languages. In Spain it is typical to speak three of Spanish, Catalan, Valencian, Galician, Basque, Portugese, Arabic, English. In The Netherlands basically anyone speaks Dutch and English plus a third language, usually Frisian, Limburgish, German, French, Spanish, Turkish or Arabic.
BeetleB 1/23/2026|||
Two American tourists were backpacking in Europe when a car pulled up next to them. The driver rolled down his window and asked in german:” Where is the nearest diner?”

The two Americans, not knowing a fraction of German, stared blankly at the driver. “Sorry, but we have no idea what you are saying.”

The driver tried again in French and again was met with blank stares and shakes of the head from the two tourists.

Getting frustrated, he tried again in Italian, in Spanish, each time receiving nothing but sheepish smiles from the two of them. Finally, he cursed under his breath and drove away angrily.

The first American asked his partner:” Maybe we should learn a second language.” His partner shrugged and replied:” Why? That dude knew four languages and it didn’t help him.”

tene80i 1/23/2026||||
The UK did not leave Europe. Just the EU. But also English fluency is widespread, so it’s not a bad starting point.
rconti 1/24/2026|||
I do find it funny that Brits colloquially describe "Europe" as being foreign, as in, "in Britain" vs "in Europe", or "in Europe" vs "on the continent. Of course, I guess the "the continent" is a loaded term, too.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to me, I get it, and it's easier to refer to Europe as "the other" rather than having to use a longer phrase to describe traveling from the British isles to the mainland of continental Europe.

But still, it amuses me.

direwolf20 1/23/2026||||
English is also the lingua franca (French language) of computers.
ogogmad 1/23/2026||
Fun fact: The term Lingua Franca originally meant something closer to Portuguese than the French spoken at the time. Eventually though, the French language did become the Lingua Franca truly, for some time.
drnick1 1/23/2026|||
> But also English fluency is widespread, so it’s not a bad starting point.

Being able to string together a couple of sentences is not "being fluent." By that standard, all of America would be fluent in Spanish.

technothrasher 1/23/2026|||
Basic fluency in English is widespread enough that I've had to be way out in the boonies in pretty much any country I've visited for me not to find somebody who can speak English. It makes me feel like a bit of a fool not being able to speak anything but English myself. I've got a learning disability that affects my ability to learn languages, so as much as I've tried, I'm not able to get much further than being able to get fed and find the bathroom in any other language.

I did hit a funny situation in rural France once where I was talking to a French restaurateur through one person who spoke French and Spanish, and then a second person who spoke Spanish and English. It was convoluted, but it worked enough to get me a meal. Alternatively, when I was in rural Spain, near the French border, a French speaking lady desperately tried to get me to help translate for her since she didn't speak Spanish and the merchant she wanted to talk to didn't speak French. Unfortunately, neither of them spoke English. The best I could do was communicate to the merchant in my broken Spanish that I couldn't help.

hagbard_c 1/23/2026|||
Neither is pedantry a sign of intelligence, a message many a contributor to this here site would be good to take to heart. As to the choice of language English is and will most likely remain the lingua franca (pun intended) in most of Europe as it is the language which is most often learned as a second language. While many Europeans are not fluent in this language they do manage to read and make themselves understood in it. This makes it not a bad starting point just like the grandparent stated.
s_dev 1/23/2026||||
Ireland and Malta.

You would be shocked at how well certain nationalities like the Dutch and Swedes speak English.

palata 1/23/2026|||
> You would be shocked at how well certain nationalities like the Dutch and Swedes speak English.

Totally. All Northern countries to be fair. And then in my experience at least some Eastern countries (like Slovenia).

Really it seems like the South of Europe is a bit weaker in English, my guess being that their native languages are latin and not germanic (so it's further away from English).

wolvoleo 1/24/2026|||
It's because we don't do dubbing but subtitling. Every foreign TV show or movie becomes a mini language class.

The bigger countries do dubbing and it is really noticeable.

Also in Holland we'd pride ourselves on speaking foreign languages much more than being proud of our own.

retired 1/23/2026||||
It has been around 300 million years since the UK drifted away from continental Europe but it is still very much part of it!
robin_reala 1/23/2026||
The British isles were still connected to the continent 20k years ago.
retired 1/23/2026||
Technically they reconnected 31 years ago with the tunnel.
bradyd 1/23/2026||||
The UK is still in Europe. They didn't move from the continent.
dpassens 1/23/2026|||
Except for Ireland.
pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Categories missing:

- Operating systems, for various kinds of workloads

- Programming language toolchains

- Hardware vendors

pjc50 1/23/2026||
Open source generally meets the needs of the first two. There's barely any proprietary toolchains left in common use; maybe Oracle Java is one of the last?

Hardware you can buy from China. Distant, predictable authoritarianism that doesn't make annoying social media posts is sadly preferable to .. whatever is going on over there.

pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Only if there are European resources to keep the lights on.

Java is FOSS by the way, however it is also a good example, its runtime capabilities isn't the product of long nights and weekends.

pjc50 1/23/2026|||
Java has FOSS implementations. Oracle is very much NOT free: https://oraclejavalicensing.com/who-needs-an-oracle-java-lic...

To the extent that my employer blocks Oracle dot com at the outbound firewall to stop anyone accidentally incurring license costs. You don't want to deal with Oracle license enforcement.

pjmlp 1/24/2026||
Yet another one spreading Java FUD.

Oracle cannot be blamed people are unable to understand the difference between OpenJDK and Oracle Java installers.

OpenJDK also happens to be developed mainly by Oracle employees, circa 80% of contributions.

ben_w 1/23/2026||||
Keeping the lights on is sufficient for the immediate concerns.

We can worry about feature growth later, if at all. It may be age finally changing my preferences, but so much of what I've seen sold as "new" in tech in recent years has been either worse than what I already had or a reinvention of something that already existed. Like, contactless payments were already a thing before they were available in phones, and social media didn't start with FB and twitter, and Apple's API updates in the last few years feel like as much of a downgrade to me as their icons seem to be to UI blogs.

palata 1/23/2026||||
> Java is FOSS by the way

What was the problem between Android and Java then? Wasn't there some dispute between Google and Oracle on that? Genuinely interested.

pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Back then the licence did not apply to embedded systems, and Google did a Microsoft move as well, Android Java is their J++.

Sun did not sue, because they were out money already, and Oracle used the argument they were using Apache clone implementation of Java, with copyrighted headers.

To this day you cannot pick a random Java library and have it run on Android.

Even after having won, they refuse to implement full compatibility.

palata 1/24/2026||
> To this day you cannot pick a random Java library and have it run on Android

Because of the licence or because it won't work? Sounds like the latter, but I have never seen a Java library that unexpectedly did not run on Android.

jimnotgym 1/23/2026|||
I don't see the issue with Operating systems or programming languages. There are FOSS alternatives and since they are run locally have no connection outside of the EU.

Hardware vendors is a different issue

pjmlp 1/23/2026||
You are missing the big picture who develops them, pays the salaries of people in the trenches, implement LSPs, and whatever else around the ecosystems.

Example, Java, .NET, Go and co are FOSS, how long do you think they will keep on going without their overlords?

For complete alternatives we need to go back to the cold war days, where programming languages were driven by vendor neutral standards, and there were several to buy from.

As it is, it suffices to take the air out of existing FOSS options.

Even if you quickly point out to GCC and clang, one reason why they have dropped implementation velocity from existing ISO revisions is due to a few well known big corps focusing on their own offerings, while other vendors seldom upstream stuff as they focus on clang.

EDIT: As I missed this on the first comment, same applies to the big FOSS OS projects, most contributions to the major Linux distros, or the BSDs come from non European companies, there is naturally something like SuSE, but then we get into the whole who is allowed to contribute, security, backdoors and related stuff.

nitwit005 1/23/2026|||
People are still running on Java 1.8, which was released in 2014. If no more Java work happened, that'd be unfortunate, but realistically we'd all be fine.
jimnotgym 1/23/2026||||
For the OS stuff wouldn't a European distribution of Linux do. Worst case if Europe could no longer get access to patches it could fork it. OK Europe might get behind, but that doesn't seem like an immediate issue, in the same way that not having AWS would be?

On programming languages it is a concern how popular .net and Java are in Europe. However being stuck on the current state of Python is less of a worry. I feel like I was always 10 years behind on needing new features.

jimnotgym 1/23/2026|||
Edit: I concede my .net concerns do pull through to Linux. If you were selling Linux solutions to Government or big business, I fear Redhat might be chosen before Suse and Ubuntu
pjmlp 1/24/2026|||
Yeah, it would be a matter who would pick up the forks so to speak.
flumpcakes 1/23/2026||||
A lot of European people spend their energy on those FOSS languages. Why would they go away?

There's C++ if you want something that has an international standard.

pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Yes that would be one of them.
direwolf20 1/23/2026|||
The EU is asking for information on how to support open source, as they currently do through NLNET. It seems to prefer decentralised open source to the hyper-capitalism we got from American tech. Both have their downsides, of course.
gtirloni 1/23/2026|||
They accept suggestions - https://european-alternatives.eu/register
pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Thanks
TacticalCoder 1/23/2026|||
> - Operating systems, for various kinds of workloads

I agree that OS is missing but OS for any workload that is not "desktop computer" or "laptop computer" in the EU, and anywhere in the world, is already dominated by Linux. Phones, routers, Internet of Things, servers, supercomputers, smartwatches, satelittes,... Whatever really. It's all Linux.

pjmlp 1/24/2026||
Where are located the key companies that contribute to Linux ecosystem?
fsflover 1/25/2026||
They do not dominate the development Like MS for Windows. Independent people from all over the world review their contribution. This is a small problem related to other things.

Also, Qubes OS exists.

badsectoracula 1/23/2026|||
FWIW Free Pascal and Lazarus communities and developers are largely European and there isn't a single company behind them. Though at the same time there are also several devs from outside EU so i do not think it can be called a "EU alternative" - which is the case for most FLOSS projects actually.

Some projects, especially high profile ones, do have US companies behind them (e.g. Google, etc) so you could claim they are US-centric, but at this point it becomes a question of why you are looking for an EU alternative. If it is to help EU businesses (like others mentioned), then unless you financially support these US companies (either directly or indirectly via, e.g., your data) it doesn't matter if the FLOSS project you are using is made by them or not.

palata 1/23/2026|||
> why you are looking for an EU alternative

I think recently it has been made obvious by the US that relying on US technology is a risk, because it can be used to bully entire countries.

So I think there is a movement right now of "non-US alternatives", but of course if you are in the EU and got burned by relying too much on the US, maybe it is wise to try to fix that by having some kind of digital sovereignty in the EU.

But I'm pretty sure many companies would switch to a Canada-based product if it allowed them to reduce their dependency on the US.

badsectoracula 1/23/2026||
Yeah i understand why one would do that, i wrote that not to make the question itself, but to indicate that whoever thinks to look for EU alternatives should ask that question to themselves. This way they can figure out how to choose their next steps, like judging if a FLOSS project makes sense to use or avoid - e.g. if it is tied in a US company.
pjmlp 1/23/2026|||
For the same reason people on the wrong countries aren't allowed to contribute to US projects.

The way things are going it becomes a national security issue where those PR are coming from.

badsectoracula 1/23/2026||
So, to be clear, your reasons for looking for EU alternatives (i.e. that "same reason" you refer to) is that some countries are not allowed to contribute to US projects?
pjmlp 1/23/2026||
Yes, as it stands we should remove our independence on US, given current geopolitics, when technology can be weaponised.
badsectoracula 1/23/2026||
Ok, but in that case the only FLOSS projects from US that can be considered "dangerous" would be those which are both tied to specific US companies and do not have much of a EU presence to be forked in case of such weaponization (with ease of forking being taken into account as well).

And TBH IMO such projects should be avoided in the first place regardless of what US is doing because they tend to use FLOSS as a marketing method than for practical development. Choosing projects which have multiple shareholders, so to speak, is much healthier in the long term.

BenoitEssiambre 1/23/2026|||
For consumers, these computers look interesting: https://starlabs.systems/
qznc 1/23/2026||
I recently discovered these: https://www.schenker-tech.de/en/
dismalaf 1/23/2026|||
- OSes is easy, Suse and Ubuntu are European. As well as a bunch of smaller ones.

Programming language toolchains? You must be very NPM-brained, stuff like C and C++ is generally quite decentralized with OSes taking care of packaging. There's also plenty of languages that originated in Europe.

Hardware vendors? There's a few. Most hardware vendors in general are Asian though.

narimoney 1/25/2026||
European cloud sovereignty starts with European hardware. Without European bare-metal, the rest is just branding.
Semaphor 1/23/2026||
Thought I'd have another look at mail providers, but from what I can see, none support the features I use with fastmail (custom domain, security key, unlimited on-the-fly aliases for sending).
roelschroeven 1/24/2026||
I've been looking at mail providers too, and it's starting to look there are no real alternatives. Not just in Europe, but worldwide. I've been a happy user of Fastmail for quite some time now, and it's sad the the current geopolitical situation pressures me into migrating away.

The alternative that's looking best to me so far is Kolab Now. I don't see a lot of user reviews of it on Reddit though, or anywhere else, so it seems to not be very popular at first sight. That's perhaps not a good sign.

In any case I'm planning on trying it out for a while, with a domain I don't use it all that often, before deciding to migrate to it.

Semaphor 1/25/2026||
Doesn’t seem to support on-the-fly aliases for sending, requiring instead to set it up in advance. I use a custom mail per website/contact workflow, and with FM any reply uses whatever alias I used to receive the mail, with the option to change it to whatever I want without extra steps.
gassi 1/23/2026|||
They don't, but you shouldn't feel too bad as fastmail is australian, ie not american, which (at least personally) is where we're trying to divest.
sleepyhead 1/23/2026|||
Their servers are in the US
earthnail 1/23/2026||
Do they have any plans to move off the US?
gassi 1/24/2026|||
No plans according to some recent reddit threads, but you can probably email their support for a more up-to-date info.
Semaphor 1/23/2026|||
US servers, though.
gassi 1/24/2026||
Ah wasn't aware of that, thanks.
throwaway270925 1/24/2026||
Gandi.net offers mail with custom domain and unlimited aliases. You need to have your domain registered with them though.
Semaphor 1/25/2026||
I wouldn't consider them an option since they got bought and had extreme price rises.
throwaway270925 1/26/2026||
If you consider single digit €/m "extreme", sure ...
Semaphor 1/27/2026||
I’m glad you don’t care enough about money that tripling the price of something is not extreme, but most people would disagree.
j1elo 1/23/2026||
Does this hook up with promotion of the EUPL [1] as a preferred license for software? Does it even make more sense for european FOSS authors over the GPL family?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Public_Licence

mschae23 1/23/2026|
The EUPL is a fine license, especially if your goal is wide compatibility with other copyleft licenses. However, that compatibility also weakens its own copyleft, which could be surprising if you just read the main text.

Also, the GPL is not as short and has more explicit wording for how it behaves in common situations (like the P2P copying stuff, for example), and it allows certain additional restrictions and exceptions (like what the LGPL is). It's just more well thought-out in my opinion.

Edit: Reading it again, I also just remembered that the EUPL's warranty disclaimer is a lot weaker than usual licenses, and weirdly also asserts the program is a “work in progress”.

badsectoracula 1/23/2026|||
> However, that compatibility also weakens its own copyleft

Keep in mind that within EU the GPL's copyleft is as strong as EUPL's or LGPL while at the same time EUPL takes into account network access like AGPL. In practice though, software is distributed outside of the EU and while GPL relies on local laws to "maximize" its copyleftness, EUPL specifically refers to either the EU country of the developer or Belgium if the developers from outside the EU, where the laws do not distinguish between static or dynamic linking (check "More details on the case of linking" from [0] about license compatibility). Also FWIW while FSF suggests that "license hopping" (i.e. changing to some compatible licenses from EUPL to something else) weakens the copyleft, a European Commision lawyer who worked on EUPL has commented doing so would be copyright infringement because the purpose of the compatibility list in EUPL is for interoperability (so that multiple projects with different licenses can coexist) and the purpose would matter in court.

Though in practice since software is often distributed outside of EU, e.g. to US where (it seems) such distinction does exist, people do respect (L)GPL's dynamic vs static linking requirements and from a worldwide perspective EUPL is something like LGPL with a dash of AGPL (making some program functionality available even remotely is considered as distribution). Or in other words, EUPL is basically AGPL within the limitations of EU law.

[0] https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/li...

palata 1/23/2026|||
> However, that compatibility also weakens its own copyleft

Can you elaborate on that?

My understanding is that EUPL is a bit like MPLv2 or LGPL in the spirit. Like it protects the project itself, but doesn't go viral like the GPL.

mschae23 1/24/2026||
That depends on your interpretation of what a “derivative work” constitutes, which the EUPL delegates to copyright law. For the GPL, it includes other programs linked to the work (which is how it affects other projects using the work as a library). If this definition held true for the EUPL as well, it would behave the same way. (By the way, I don't really like describing copyleft as “viral”, because that implies the GPL (and similar licenses) are like infectious diseases.)

However, the compatibility clause allows relicensing to other licenses that are explicitly weaker in their copyleft, which is what I meant with the quoted sentence.

Another comment just made me aware though that apparently, copyleft extending to other programs linking with the work is just not a thing in the EU? I'll have to read more into the details of that.

DiggyJohnson 1/23/2026||
What are some non-subjective reasons to use Euro alternatives? It reminds me of startup founders having to choose between the big expensive service or their buddy’s startup that intends to serve the same use case.
malauxyeux 1/23/2026||
Here's one case from August 2025:

----

Nicolas Guillou, a French judge at the International Criminal Court, discusses in an interview with Le Monde the consequences of US sanctions imposed on him and eight other judges and prosecutors at the court. The sanctions were introduced after the court issued an arrest warrant for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The concrete consequences of the sanctions extend far beyond a travel ban to the US. "The sanctions affect all aspects of my daily life. They prohibit all US individuals or legal entities, all persons or companies, including their foreign subsidiaries, from providing me with services", Guillou explains.

All his accounts with US companies such as Amazon, Airbnb, PayPal, and others have been closed. "For example, I booked a hotel in France through Expedia, and a few hours later, the company sent an email canceling the reservation citing the sanctions. In practice, you can no longer shop online because you don't know if the packaging your product comes in is American. Being under sanctions is like being sent back to the 1990s", he says.

"Overnight, you find yourself without a bank card, and these companies have an almost complete monopoly, at least in Europe. US companies are actively involved in intimidating sanctioned individuals – in this case, the judges and prosecutors who administer justice in contemporary armed conflicts", he notes.

He emphasizes that sanctions can last for more than a decade or even longer.

https://nordictimes.com/world/how-french-icc-judge-faces-us-...

DiggyJohnson 1/25/2026||
I think you’re missing the point of my question. I’m not saying that story isn’t distressing and a good reason to use alternatives, but I’m asking about whether you can convince individuals and individual businesses that these alternatives are more cost effective or capable than the software they’re replacing.
202508042147 1/23/2026|||
To me, a very non-subjective reason is that the money I'm paying for these services will go to people and companies that share the same values and the taxes on the said money will be used for our common defense instead of being used to attack us.
pixelpoet 1/23/2026|||
If you're European and reading the news at any point in the last year+, you understand how critical a weakness being dependent on US companies for your IT infra is.

There are some things that are difficult to avoid, like CPUs and GPUs, but software is much more doable.

DiggyJohnson 1/23/2026||
Please don’t assume I’m not up to date on the news. But is there a tangible risk vector to European consumers of open source, commercial American software. I’m genuinely asking about incentives for the individual or individual business. That’s a more difficult question to answer than asking why shouldn’t Europe as a whole pursue this.
malauxyeux 1/23/2026||
I answered above, but answering here as well in case it's buried.

> But is there a tangible risk vector to European consumers of open source, commercial American software.

Yes. If you're a European sanctioned by the US, it's illegal for American companies to provide you service. That means no Amazon, PayPal, Expedia, Visa, etc.

See this case of a French judge from 2025:

https://nordictimes.com/world/how-french-icc-judge-faces-us-...

s_dev 1/23/2026|||
European companies operate under stricter privacy laws. GDPR is applicable world wide but has serious teeth and enforcement within Europe. Small US companies with no presence in Europe can effectively ignore it. However if an American were to choose a European service this benefit is effectively passed on to them. They can view what data any company has on them or ask them to delete it.

I can appreciate some don't care about their data especially in this world of people pouring their lives in to social media but some people do care.

rhubarbtree 1/23/2026|||
America could feasibly use cloud and other service provision as an economic weapon. Your company could die as a result.
202508042147 1/23/2026|||
And a second non-subjective and very important reason is that at any moment the US government might decide that the data we entrusted their corporations with is no longer ours and we need to part with it. It will be used for AI training. Also, this is because we didn't say thank you or something like that...
layer8 1/23/2026|||
> their buddy’s startup

That’s really not a good comparison. Many of the listed services and companies have been well established for a long time, in some cases for decades, and aren’t small businesses.

timeon 1/24/2026||
Legal one? Cloud Act is not compatible with GDPR.
gtirloni 1/23/2026||
This is nice but if Europe doesn't fix their tech salaries situation (half US' in most cases, if not lower), I don't think it's sustainable.
skrebbel 1/23/2026||
You simply don’t need such inflated salaries if schools are free, roads are not broken, trains exist, healthcare is affordable, grocery stores are in biking distance, parks are good and free and plenty, labor laws are in your favour, utilities markets mostly aren’t dysfunctional and a 2-bedroom apartment doesn't cost $10000/m.

Americans compare their salaries to European ones but never stop to imagine the insane high “taxes” they pay for stuff that we get cheaply or for free.

I'm not even saying the one is better than the other. There's a lot to be said for the American system of only paying for what you need. It's just.. you can't just compare dollars/euros like that. There's reddit posts of people who earn $900k/y and openly wonder whether that's enough to live in NYC and that shit is equally unfathomable to the average European as the idea of a dev earning €70k/y is to the average American.

carlosjobim 1/23/2026|||
Do you want to live in a school, on the streets, in a train, in a hospital, in a park or in a grocery store?

As long as housing is extremely expensive in Europe, nothing else matters except for higher salaries.

lukan 1/23/2026||
Housing is not extremely expensive in europe. Only close to the big cities it is.
pageandrew 1/24/2026|||
The person you're responding to is claiming that Americans have to pay $10,000 for a 2 bedroom apartment, thus that is why the salaries are so high.

That isn't true unless you're looking to rent a luxury apartment in a big city.

carlosjobim 1/24/2026||
I never said that.
pageandrew 1/28/2026||
Person above you did, my bad
carlosjobim 1/23/2026|||
It is extremely expensive almost everywhere when you compare to local salaries.
lmf4lol 1/23/2026||||
True. But the systems are more and more breaking down. Its unsustainable. At least what I can tell from Germany and the Netherlands. to see a healthcare specialist, you wait 3-6months in some cases. Not talking about the trains. Germany DB runs on time in only 50% of the cases. So thats a big problem
MrDresden 1/23/2026|||
My partner has had three extensive cancer treatments in the Netherlands. She has had dietary and psychological specialists help her during and after each one.

All of this was just on normal health insurance and with normal clinics and hospitals.

Never did she have to wait more than perhaps 3 weeks tops for an appointment.

The medical system here is world class.

However Germany and it's infrastructure can not be compared to the Netherlands. I refuse to take trains through that country anymore.

kpw94 1/23/2026||
> However Germany and it's infrastructure can not be compared to the Netherlands. I refuse to take trains through that country anymore.

In which country are the trains bad? Netherlands or Germany? Do you care elaborating why? is that punctuality? strikes? decaying infrastructure?

MrDresden 1/24/2026||
Yeah I see now how that was unclear.

I was talking about Germany's infrastructure. Last year I had 3x separate trips turn into chaos due to how broken their system is. Broken trains, broken track infrastructure etc. Think multiple hours on each trip rather than just 10 minutes delay.

The Ditch system is very reliable in contrast.

maigret 1/23/2026||||
The trains that are 10 min late in Germany mostly not exist in many other countries. Sure Switzerland is the best, but Germany is pretty high up. It’s just less good than it used to be. Oh and you can ride almost everywhere for 60 EUR / month.

For healthcare if you get an IT salary you can either move to private insurance, or buy additional insurance, or just pay a consultation yourself for a fee that US people won’t believe.

lmf4lol 1/23/2026||
Last 7 times i took the ICE, i had 5 delays. 3 times the restaurant wasnt available. 2 times they didnt stop at my destination and I had to rent a car. so yeah. I try to travel now either by car or plane. But even by car is terrible, especially in the south. More construction sites every year and none are finishing. . Health care is totally broken if you dont have private insurance. My step dad, who has, gets an appointment 1 day after he calls. my grand ma, who worked all her life and is now on public needs to wait 5 months IN PAIN.

the system is breaking down in front of our very eyes.

i am not living in Germany. i moved to fthe NL, but the situation is very similiar.

microtonal 1/23/2026||||
Ehm, my parents some serious health issues the last two years and they usually had their appointments in days or at most a small number of weeks. (NL)
ranguna 1/24/2026||||
That's very alarmist, sensational and dramatic. The systems are going though some tough times, but they are not breaking down, that's what children would say to make their life more like a Hollywood movie.

My father had to go though multiple appointments and analysis to get his prostate and hernia checked. Never waited more than a week and paid 0 in total. Before, he'd probably only have to wait a couple days for appointments, but the stress the healthcare system is currently undergoing is abnormal due to the more aggressive cases of flue this season. All things considering, things are not "breaking down" (I'm even getting some second hand embarrassment reading those words).

yodsanklai 1/24/2026||||
> At least what I can tell from Germany and the Netherlands. to see a healthcare specialist, you wait 3-6months in some cases.

Same in France, it can take a while to get an appointment to see some specialists nowadays. There's a clear decline there.

But if you have something bad, they'll treat you in time. Actually, a relative of mine has been diagnosed with cancer a not long ago. She got several surgeries and all the treatments with no wait, and at not cost.

There's no reason why it shouldn't be sustainable.

palata 1/23/2026|||
> Not talking about the trains

How does that compare to the public transport situation in the US?

tintor 1/24/2026|||
"trains exist"

Like Spain's commuter trains?

yodsanklai 1/23/2026|||
I suspect China or Russia don't have higher salaries, they still manage to build their own alternatives. And Airbus builds better planes than Boeing with European salaries.

I'm sure that with a bit of protectionism, we would build our tech as well as anybody else.

u8080 1/23/2026||
Tech jobs in IT in Moscow are paid(net) relatively similar to what you could get in EU.
nazgob 1/23/2026||
So not US salaries.
u8080 1/23/2026||
Indeed, but cost of life is different as well. People usually compare US Bay area net salaries to Western EU salaries - but there are so many different things to consider as well(rent, insurances, taxes, etc) which imo spoils any constructive comparasion.
rhubarbtree 1/23/2026|||
Not true. Plenty of European products are better. Consumer example: Spotify is better than Apple Music. Business example: Attio is better than every American CRM at SME/early stage startup stage.

Biggest problem has been talent going to US.

This problem is rapidly being solved by the US government.

The startup I work for was planning to raise next round in the US. This will not happen as the CEO refuses to travel to the US.

It’s the best time to build in the EU or UK there has ever been. I don’t expect America to pull out of this nose dive. The future of western software is in europe now, and globally I expect China to be the lead beginning with AI.

mrweasel 1/23/2026|||
Assuming that people are solely motivated by money, which most aren't. You can't pay me enough to put my children into a school system that has "active shooter" drills. After a certain point money stops being a motivation, that point is well within the average EU tech salary band (perhaps excluding places like Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovenia and that general area).
tene80i 1/23/2026|||
But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?
gtirloni 1/23/2026||
The huge influx of competent European engineers to the US is a real thing.
mrweasel 1/23/2026|||
I don't think that's motivated by money. The US companies simply solved more interesting problems. Working for a start up in the Bay area trying to invent a new industry, or scale systems to global is generally more interesting than working on a CRM system for mid-size lumberyards in Sweden. The CRM system pays well enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and provide for your family, but it's a little boring if you're 25 with a shiny new CS degree.
ragall 1/23/2026||||
That was true a few years ago, but not any more. Covid made a lot of US-based companies sack local developers and actually open offices in Europe. I have friends in Italy who, between 2022 and 2023, moved from local companies to US companies opening offices in Rome and Milano, and got a salary bump from ~30-35k to 80-90k plus bonus and RSUs. Same thing happening all over Europe.
palata 1/23/2026||||
Because many European engineers move to the US does not mean at all that most European engineers move to the US. There are many engineers in Europe.

I hear that argument a lot, and honestly it sounds uninformed and downright disrespectful. Some kind of "I am a US developer, we US developers are the best, and the few good European engineers come here. The remaining ones in Europe are dumb".

Not to mention that I have talked to quite a few European engineers who could earn a lot more by moving to the US, but just really don't want to live in the US. Maybe there is a reason for that?

honzabe 1/24/2026||||
I think you underestimate how dramatically the perception of the US in Europe changed for the worse. It was already in nose dive during recent months, but the recent days (Greenland crisis) will put a nail in the coffin. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I expect that influx to dry up very soon.
fatherwavelet 1/25/2026||
What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe?

This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.

honzabe 1/25/2026||
> What is the European alternative to the US military if Russia attacks Europe?

European military. Why do some people act as if European countries had no armies?

And even if we had no armies and Russia attacked and totally destroyed us, how is it related to the topic discussed here, which is whether the influx of European engineers to the US will continue or not?

> This whole thing just seems like the standard hysterical overreaction of people who spend too much time on social media.

Perhaps. I don't think it is, but let's say you are right. How is that relevant? People do not want to go to a country they perceive negatively. Whether that perception is an objective fact or hysteria is, in this context, immaterial.

B1FIDO 1/25/2026||
Well there is no "European military" per se and there will be no "Russia invades Europe" scenario, because "Europe" is a continent and not a sovereign nation.

What would happen is that Russia invades Poland, or Russia invades Romania or Bulgaria or something. Those are Eastern European countries. (I mean they all used to be Soviet bloc anyway.) Or Russia would invade Germany like the good ol' days. So whatever nation they invaded would sic their own armed forces on them, and their allies' too. NATO could jump into the fray.

Americans (and perhaps Russians too) often misunderstand how terribly small European nations are, really. They're mostly smaller than individual United States. So, less population, less time to transport stuff, fewer natural resources available in a sovereign context, etc. But lots of national borders.

So Russia won't invade "Europe" but they could go into one or more nations on the list.

celsoazevedo 1/23/2026||||
That might not be the case any more if things get to the point where someone in Europe must use a European alternative.
kaffekaka 1/23/2026|||
Will this continue?
s_dev 1/23/2026|||
High US salaries come from US VCs having to bid against other to capture talent. US VCs have more capital than EU VCs. This is why.

The EU is now going to start pumping money in to building European alternatives. EU software dev salaries are going to increase. All 27 states agreed to establish the saving and investments union.

Nothing will happen overnight but you'll see this start to play out over the next 5 years. It will take decades to catch up but we are starting.

ggm 1/23/2026|||
Over what period of time do you predict economic downfall for European tech because of salaries?

Please explain your working. These last 40 years or more there has been a cliff of money, but Europeans continue to live and work in europe.

You have to have an incredibly narrow definition of "only good people work for more money and only poor/ineffective people work for less" to say people who don't chase the millions in a US company are somehow failures.

kuon 1/23/2026|||
I might get lower salary, but if I break my leg I pay nothing and I am paid during my leave.
gtirloni 1/23/2026||
I doubt you break your leg every year though. The kind of companies that we're talking about (big tech that are national champions) offers health insurance (among other benefits) and 200-500k USD/year salaries.

I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.

Juliate 1/23/2026|||
The thing is that in Europe, you don't need your employer to have health insurance. It's more beneficial for everyone in the end (well, obviously not for the private health insurance companies who care more about their margins than public wellness).
kuon 1/24/2026||||
I really don't see money as an incentive. Political and economic stability of the whole country is much more important. Of course you need enough to afford food and roof, but after that, I'm not chasing it.

I'm a freelance, and I take fun jobs, not jobs that pay well.

palata 1/23/2026||||
> I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.

But maybe culture and quality of life should not be ignored :-).

pageandrew 1/24/2026||
Quality of life in places like San Francisco and New York is very high, and you get the insane salaries, and your healthcare is oftentimes mostly if not completely covered by your employer (I pay literally $0 out of pocket for high quality healthcare here in San Francisco).
palata 1/24/2026||
> Quality of life in places like San Francisco and New York is very high

Quality of life is also a cultural thing. I know it's hard to understand for US people (I truly believe it is the case for cultural reasons), but many people really don't want the lifestyle of the US for all sorts of reasons. For some people, quality of life means easy access to healthy food, or to nature, seeing trees instead of giant concrete parking lots or 6-lanes highways, etc.

pageandrew 1/28/2026||
Have you ever been to San Francisco? How many 6 lane highways do you think exist in the city of San Francisco?

I can tell you (I live here) -- there are none. SF is one of the most beautiful cities on Earth, and I'm trying my hardest to visit as many cities on earth as possible.

ranguna 1/24/2026|||
I think the OP used "breaking a leg" as an analogy. Interesting that you didn't pick that up.
gtirloni 1/25/2026||
A analogy for major health events that demand a lot of money, to which I replied you don't have $major_health_event every year. Interesting that you didn't pick that up.
ranguna 1/28/2026||
If its not just breaking a leg, than you can be sure that you'll have at least one or two in a 10 or 20 years, each one you'd have to pay more than 50kUSD or more for full treatment including pills. In most of Europe, you'll be paying close to 0.
Teever 1/23/2026|||
This talking point went out the window After America threatened to invade Greenland.

After that I bet some people would actually pay to develop software to defang the American threat.

Tade0 1/23/2026|||
I wouldn't want US salaries with US costs of living.

Also working for companies located in Ireland[0] or Switzerland you can have your US salary, it's just that the pool of jobs is limited.

[0] Provided it's a company in the first of Ireland's two economies.

lostmsu 1/23/2026||
Not sure about Ireland, but Switzerland used to be true, but now it is also far behind since 5+ years.

See, Google Zurich vs Seattle

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

Hm, after carefully reviewing the entries seem more or less the same, Zurich slightly lower.

ragall 1/23/2026||
Considering the low taxes and lower cost of living in Zurich (yes, lower than Seattle), and the much higher quality of life, Zurich is a no-brainer.
alberto-m 1/23/2026|||
I'd say if you get a job in the same company, Zurich is competitive. The problem is that if you lose your job at Google in Seattle there are several hundreds of FAANG positions and probably thousands of other 200k$+ SWE jobs you can reapply to. In Zurich you will maybe see a dozen of openings in the small subsidiaries of Apple, Microsoft & Co., and maybe some individual job offers from small AI companies, and applying to any of these positions basically means competing against the whole rest of the continent.
ragall 1/24/2026|||
Ex-Googlers in Zurich have no trouble finding other jobs. For people with the right CV, there are a lot more openings than that.
palata 1/23/2026|||
> and applying to any of these positions basically means competing against the whole rest of the continent

Which should not be an issue, if as I read a lot in this page, "all good European engineers move to the US". It means that you only have to compete against the "bad ones" that stayed back, right? /s

lostmsu 1/23/2026|||
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... says Zurich is 33% more expensive and I remember it that way.
ragall 1/23/2026||
Numbeo shows averages, and the basket of goods that it considers is not what a well-off person would buy. I Zurich I could live perfectly well without having a car, just with public transportation, and French and Italian cheeses and wine are a cheaper than in Seattle.
lostmsu 1/24/2026||
As a well off person your most significant purchase is going to be a house, and in Seattle they are 3x cheaper.

I just left Seattle Greater Area and my 350sqm admittedly old house + a small ADU with an outdoor pool went for $2M (at the moment it was a downturn, so maybe $2.5M tops now). What can you get for that money in Greater Zurich Area? A 100sqm flat?

ragall 1/24/2026|||
In the Zurich Greater Area, you can get this for example: https://www.immoscout24.ch/buy/4002631314. Keep in mind that in most of Europe, real estate ads show the living space, i.e. surface net of walls, corridors, closets, cupboards, etc... whereas in US/Canada it's the gross surface. Those 350sqm are prolly 280 "livable". So if you're willing to live outside the Zurich city core, prices are comparable to Seattle but construction quality is way higher.

Also, most mortgages in Switzerland are very peculiar: you pay 20% down, but then you don't ever pay off the principal, only interest on the remaining 80% which is owned in perpetuity by the bank. The interest rates are kept very low and the currency quite stable, because most of the citizens rely on it. So your monthly interest could be 400-500 CHF, and you invest the rest however you prefer.

lostmsu 1/29/2026||
This is incomparable. Here's a friend's house from the neighborhood: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2845-140th-Ave-NE-Bellevu...

much larger, much closer to everything, almost an acre of land

Tade0 1/24/2026|||
How long was the commute from your place?

The rail network in and around Zurich is reliable and punctual, so you can live anywhere along that 30km long lake and still have your commute be 30-40m, without needing to search for a parking spot and whatnot.

I experienced this myself when I was briefly commutung from Pfäffikon(SZ).

lostmsu 1/25/2026||
Commute to where? 15 minutes walking from Microsoft main campus and 10 minutes driving from a new Facebook campus. 10 minutes driving to a good daycare.
kmac_ 1/23/2026|||
It's not just about salaries, but also the lack of a culture for seeding and financing. The fear of failed investments really dominates. Government and EU-backed financing is a joke, and I'm not even talking about the terms or amounts, but who actually gets them. It's pure waste of taxpayer money and should be abandoned.
kaffekaka 1/23/2026||
I am not saying you are wrong, but Trump has shown exactly how quickly a "culture" can crumble down. Despite "checks and balances" the American democracy has done nothing to slow down the slide into dictatorship.

So how long will the culture last?

surgical_fire 1/23/2026|||
Why not?

I had offers from companies across the pond, and likely could make about 2x-3x what I make here.

What for? I live a comfortable life here.

toomuchtodo 1/23/2026|||
The higher US salaries are a bug, not a feature, in this context.
wolvoleo 1/23/2026|||
Personally it's not all about money. I even moved to a lower wage country in Europe for better quality of life.

Having enough is what I care about and things are a lot cheaper here too. Not to mention free healthcare, social security. I don't need a car and a public transport pass is 25€ a month. That alone saves me so much money. The time till the next metro train counts down in seconds here.

When I had a car in the past it would cost me hundreds per month and it was such a headache.

I'd never move to the US even if I could make 3x as much. In fact I got an offer from a FAANG once (with the whole H1B managed by some agency I think) but I declined. I only applied because they advertised it as a local job but then when the offer came it was in California. Nope.

deaux 1/24/2026|||
It very much is sustainable. See China, Russia, Korea and Japan, all varying degrees of being much less dependent on US tech than the EU is.
pickleRick243 1/24/2026|||
The actions of the current US administration seem to have provoked intense negative reactions, or perhaps caused long simmering resentment to boil over. I hope some of this energy goes towards cultivating a more entrepreneurial, less risk-averse culture in Europe.

As much as you may detest all the other great powers jostling for position with seemingly cursory attention paid to moral considerations, making your core identity the cultured "nice guy" is likely a trap. I'd love to see the resurgence of a strong Europe. I think this will require some introspection and more action than simply boycotting Google and Amazon.

Fischgericht 1/23/2026||
Before we closed our office in Mountain View years ago, every time we went over there:

- I could not get out of my San Francisco Hotel to get to a deli across the road without having to step over at least 5 homeless people.

- I could not fail to notice that even those people who did have jobs and not lost their homes to tech bros had a surprisingly low number of healthy teeth for a modern western first-world society

- An apartment with noisy air conditioning, dirty carpets and questionable building codes would cost more in rent than a villa at the Côte d’Azur.

- The air quality during fire season was a nightmare. During my time there I developed asthma.

- Everybody hated the arrogant ignorant tech people that invaded their communities, forced them out of their houses to then have to commute into the city or valley to serve tech bros. Yes, as a European I am not that well trained to constantly ignore that my privilege are causing the community around me to suffer. That I do not "earn" this gigantic salary, I am just grabbing the resources pretending the "normal" people don't deserve to have any of that.

You are getting paid so much because you in exchange are living in a sh*thole country without education, healthcare, public transport, clean air, or anything else that I as a "wealthy" developer person would expect to receive in exchange for my work.

Take your US salary, and invest it into a travel into some of the more up-to-date regions of the world. Those with clean air, education, healthcare. Places I have visited that are better than the Valley in this regard include:

- Pretty much all of Europe. Maybe with the exception of Greece and Spain, when they are now burning thanks to the "drill drill drill" people. - China - Iran - New Zealand - Australia - Canada ...

Yes, the amount of zeros on your US salary might look soooooooooooooooo impressive. But they are zeros. They don't buy you a livable live in a modern civilization.

Right now you are just bribed with money not to see the civil war getting ignited in minnesota.

Oh oh oh, now I remember! I have even been to two countries with civil wars a while ago, who had clean air, education and healthcare. And I think even directly after the civil war, all of Kosovo had a lower percentage of homeless people than the US has today.

Yes, another one of my drastic postings. But you will survive. Be brave: With someone who clearly is being paid a lot for being clever, I can assume that you think this through again, to calculate what the better deal is. You know the average amount of student debt people who want to become programmers have? Zero.

You are not getting more VALUE out of working in the US in high-tech compared to other places. There are places on this world, where being a good programmer buys you a wonderful life with nobody around you being poor, or without healthcare, or homeless. Try Estonia. They have a lovely tech community, a fully digital government. You can become a digital citizen, open your own company in minutes. And you will have a far better life.

Teever 1/24/2026||
Can you talk more about the Estonian tech scene? I am a Canadian-Estonian and I have been considering moving to Europe in the next year or so.
Fischgericht 1/24/2026||
This here has been the key ingredient for the startup culture Estonia now has:

https://www.e-resident.gov.ee

It's just crazy. I went to the Estonian embassy in Berlin, was offered coffee, and 20 minutes later I had my digital card allowing me to create a limited company.

honzabe 1/25/2026||
What is your experience running that company? It looks great on paper, but if you don’t mind sharing, what is the practical side of things? Have you encountered any stumbling blocks?
Xixi 1/23/2026||
I’m building something similar for Japan: https://altstack.jp. Still work in progress!
nickdothutton 1/23/2026||
Let me know when someone spots a "Rival Castle" to GCP, AWS, Azure, Alibaba, Oracle. These are Hamlets.
mejutoco 1/23/2026|
Hertzner?
nickdothutton 1/23/2026||
I'm a happy customer of Hetzner, but AWS revenues are 440x theirs. Not much of a castle.
direwolf20 1/23/2026|||
Why do you want to be a customer of a company with extreme revenue? That only means you'll pay too much money.
nickdothutton 1/23/2026|||
Greater chance of survival, greater chance of being a winner in any consolidation in the industry, generally revenue translates to higher share price which means ability to acquire useful and interesting companies, likely lower cost of capital for borrowing for build-outs. Attracts greater talent with better packages. Now as teeny tiny (personal) customer of these guys... I'm not really going to care about most of this stuff. But in my $70B company market cap day-job... I do.
whackernews 1/24/2026||
[flagged]
bdangubic 1/23/2026||||
I am a customer of Walmart and Costco, both with extreme revenue and both saving me loads of money
direwolf20 1/24/2026||
Are you also a customer of Whole Foods?
bdangubic 1/24/2026||
sometimes
missedthecue 1/23/2026|||
Customers can benefit from scale too
abc123abc123 1/23/2026|||
Hmm, how starnge that AWS then seems to be the most expensive option around. I've saved loads of money by using Hetzner instead. I can also easily move to other providers should I want thanks to open standards and open source.
direwolf20 1/23/2026|||
They can't benefit from high prices
mejutoco 1/24/2026|||
What about "GCP, AWS, Azure, Alibaba, Oracle" revenues?
freekh 1/23/2026|
Wanted to submit my CMS, Val, but there's no CMS category yet?

I tried to create a category here if it is useful for others as well: https://european-alternatives.eu/admin/category-votes/3daefd...

Oh, and here's the product page: https://val.build

GitHub is here: https://github.com/valbuild/val

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