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Posted by s_dev 9 hours ago

European Alternatives(european-alternatives.eu)
469 points | 219 commentspage 2
freekh 4 hours ago|
Wanted to submit my CMS, Val, but there's no CMS category yet?

I tried to create a category here if it is useful for others as well: https://european-alternatives.eu/admin/category-votes/3daefd...

Oh, and here's the product page: https://val.build

GitHub is here: https://github.com/valbuild/val

gtirloni 6 hours ago||
This is nice but if Europe doesn't fix their tech salaries situation (half US' in most cases, if not lower), I don't think it's sustainable.
skrebbel 5 hours ago||
You simply don’t need such inflated salaries if schools are free, roads are not broken, trains exist, healthcare is affordable, grocery stores are in biking distance, parks are good and free and plenty, labor laws are in your favour, utilities markets mostly aren’t dysfunctional and a 2-bedroom apartment doesn't cost $10000/m.

Americans compare their salaries to European ones but never stop to imagine the insane high “taxes” they pay for stuff that we get cheaply or for free.

I'm not even saying the one is better than the other. There's a lot to be said for the American system of only paying for what you need. It's just.. you can't just compare dollars/euros like that. There's reddit posts of people who earn $900k/y and openly wonder whether that's enough to live in NYC and that shit is equally unfathomable to the average European as the idea of a dev earning €70k/y is to the average American.

lmf4lol 2 hours ago|||
True. But the systems are more and more breaking down. Its unsustainable. At least what I can tell from Germany and the Netherlands. to see a healthcare specialist, you wait 3-6months in some cases. Not talking about the trains. Germany DB runs on time in only 50% of the cases. So thats a big problem
microtonal 28 minutes ago|||
Ehm, my parents some serious health issues the last two years and they usually had their appointments in days or at most a small number of weeks. (NL)
maigret 2 hours ago||||
The trains that are 10 min late in Germany mostly not exist in many other countries. Sure Switzerland is the best, but Germany is pretty high up. It’s just less good than it used to be. Oh and you can ride almost everywhere for 60 EUR / month.

For healthcare if you get an IT salary you can either move to private insurance, or buy additional insurance, or just pay a consultation yourself for a fee that US people won’t believe.

lmf4lol 2 hours ago||
Last 7 times i took the ICE, i had 5 delays. 3 times the restaurant wasnt available. 2 times they didnt stop at my destination and I had to rent a car. so yeah. I try to travel now either by car or plane. But even by car is terrible, especially in the south. More construction sites every year and none are finishing. . Health care is totally broken if you dont have private insurance. My step dad, who has, gets an appointment 1 day after he calls. my grand ma, who worked all her life and is now on public needs to wait 5 months IN PAIN.

the system is breaking down in front of our very eyes.

i am not living in Germany. i moved to fthe NL, but the situation is very similiar.

palata 1 hour ago|||
> Not talking about the trains

How does that compare to the public transport situation in the US?

carlosjobim 2 hours ago|||
Do you want to live in a school, on the streets, in a train, in a hospital, in a park or in a grocery store?

As long as housing is extremely expensive in Europe, nothing else matters except for higher salaries.

lukan 2 hours ago||
Housing is not extremely expensive in europe. Only close to the big cities it is.
carlosjobim 2 hours ago||
It is extremely expensive almost everywhere when you compare to local salaries.
ggm 31 minutes ago|||
Over what period of time do you predict economic downfall for European tech because of salaries?

Please explain your working. These last 40 years or more there has been a cliff of money, but Europeans continue to live and work in europe.

You have to have an incredibly narrow definition of "only good people work for more money and only poor/ineffective people work for less" to say people who don't chase the millions in a US company are somehow failures.

yodsanklai 5 hours ago|||
I suspect China or Russia don't have higher salaries, they still manage to build their own alternatives. And Airbus builds better planes than Boeing with European salaries.

I'm sure that with a bit of protectionism, we would build our tech as well as anybody else.

u8080 5 hours ago||
Tech jobs in IT in Moscow are paid(net) relatively similar to what you could get in EU.
nazgob 5 hours ago||
So not US salaries.
u8080 5 hours ago||
Indeed, but cost of life is different as well. People usually compare US Bay area net salaries to Western EU salaries - but there are so many different things to consider as well(rent, insurances, taxes, etc) which imo spoils any constructive comparasion.
tene80i 5 hours ago|||
But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?
gtirloni 4 hours ago||
The huge influx of competent European engineers to the US is a real thing.
ragall 3 hours ago|||
That was true a few years ago, but not any more. Covid made a lot of US-based companies sack local developers and actually open offices in Europe. I have friends in Italy who, between 2022 and 2023, moved from local companies to US companies opening offices in Rome and Milano, and got a salary bump from ~30-35k to 80-90k plus bonus and RSUs. Same thing happening all over Europe.
mrweasel 2 hours ago||||
I don't think that's motivated by money. The US companies simply solved more interesting problems. Working for a start up in the Bay area trying to invent a new industry, or scale systems to global is generally more interesting than working on a CRM system for mid-size lumberyards in Sweden. The CRM system pays well enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and provide for your family, but it's a little boring if you're 25 with a shiny new CS degree.
palata 1 hour ago||||
Because many European engineers move to the US does not mean at all that most European engineers move to the US. There are many engineers in Europe.

I hear that argument a lot, and honestly it sounds uninformed and downright disrespectful. Some kind of "I am a US developer, we US developers are the best, and the few good European engineers come here. The remaining ones in Europe are dumb".

Not to mention that I have talked to quite a few European engineers who could earn a lot more by moving to the US, but just really don't want to live in the US. Maybe there is a reason for that?

celsoazevedo 3 hours ago||||
That might not be the case any more if things get to the point where someone in Europe must use a European alternative.
kaffekaka 3 hours ago|||
Will this continue?
s_dev 6 hours ago|||
High US salaries come from US VCs having to bid against other to capture talent. US VCs have more capital than EU VCs. This is why.

The EU is now going to start pumping money in to building European alternatives. EU software dev salaries are going to increase. All 27 states agreed to establish the saving and investments union.

Nothing will happen overnight but you'll see this start to play out over the next 5 years. It will take decades to catch up but we are starting.

kuon 5 hours ago|||
I might get lower salary, but if I break my leg I pay nothing and I am paid during my leave.
gtirloni 4 hours ago||
I doubt you break your leg every year though. The kind of companies that we're talking about (big tech that are national champions) offers health insurance (among other benefits) and 200-500k USD/year salaries.

I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.

palata 1 hour ago|||
> I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.

But maybe culture and quality of life should not be ignored :-).

Juliate 3 hours ago|||
The thing is that in Europe, you don't need your employer to have health insurance. It's more beneficial for everyone in the end (well, obviously not for the private health insurance companies who care more about their margins than public wellness).
mrweasel 2 hours ago|||
Assuming that people are solely motivated by money, which most aren't. You can't pay me enough to put my children into a school system that has "active shooter" drills. After a certain point money stops being a motivation, that point is well within the average EU tech salary band (perhaps excluding places like Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovenia and that general area).
kmac_ 5 hours ago|||
It's not just about salaries, but also the lack of a culture for seeding and financing. The fear of failed investments really dominates. Government and EU-backed financing is a joke, and I'm not even talking about the terms or amounts, but who actually gets them. It's pure waste of taxpayer money and should be abandoned.
kaffekaka 3 hours ago||
I am not saying you are wrong, but Trump has shown exactly how quickly a "culture" can crumble down. Despite "checks and balances" the American democracy has done nothing to slow down the slide into dictatorship.

So how long will the culture last?

Tade0 5 hours ago|||
I wouldn't want US salaries with US costs of living.

Also working for companies located in Ireland[0] or Switzerland you can have your US salary, it's just that the pool of jobs is limited.

[0] Provided it's a company in the first of Ireland's two economies.

lostmsu 5 hours ago||
Not sure about Ireland, but Switzerland used to be true, but now it is also far behind since 5+ years.

See, Google Zurich vs Seattle

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

Hm, after carefully reviewing the entries seem more or less the same, Zurich slightly lower.

ragall 3 hours ago||
Considering the low taxes and lower cost of living in Zurich (yes, lower than Seattle), and the much higher quality of life, Zurich is a no-brainer.
alberto-m 2 hours ago|||
I'd say if you get a job in the same company, Zurich is competitive. The problem is that if you lose your job at Google in Seattle there are several hundreds of FAANG positions and probably thousands of other 200k$+ SWE jobs you can reapply to. In Zurich you will maybe see a dozen of openings in the small subsidiaries of Apple, Microsoft & Co., and maybe some individual job offers from small AI companies, and applying to any of these positions basically means competing against the whole rest of the continent.
palata 1 hour ago||
> and applying to any of these positions basically means competing against the whole rest of the continent

Which should not be an issue, if as I read a lot in this page, "all good European engineers move to the US". It means that you only have to compete against the "bad ones" that stayed back, right? /s

lostmsu 1 hour ago|||
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... says Zurich is 33% more expensive and I remember it that way.
ragall 41 minutes ago||
Numbeo shows averages, and the basket of goods that it considers is not what a well-off person would buy. I Zurich I could live perfectly well without having a car, just with public transportation, and French and Italian cheeses and wine are a cheaper than in Seattle.
wolvoleo 2 hours ago|||
Personally it's not all about money. I even moved to a lower wage country in Europe for better quality of life.

Having enough is what I care about and things are a lot cheaper here too. Not to mention free healthcare, social security. I don't need a car and a public transport pass is 25€ a month. That alone saves me so much money. The time till the next metro train counts down in seconds here.

When I had a car in the past it would cost me hundreds per month and it was such a headache.

I'd never move to the US even if I could make 3x as much. In fact I got an offer from a FAANG once (with the whole H1B managed by some agency I think) but I declined. I only applied because they advertised it as a local job but then when the offer came it was in California. Nope.

surgical_fire 54 minutes ago|||
Why not?

I had offers from companies across the pond, and likely could make about 2x-3x what I make here.

What for? I live a comfortable life here.

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago|||
The higher US salaries are a bug, not a feature, in this context.
Teever 5 hours ago|||
This talking point went out the window After America threatened to invade Greenland.

After that I bet some people would actually pay to develop software to defang the American threat.

Fischgericht 1 hour ago||
Before we closed our office in Mountain View years ago, every time we went over there:

- I could not get out of my San Francisco Hotel to get to a deli across the road without having to step over at least 5 homeless people.

- I could not fail to notice that even those people who did have jobs and not lost their homes to tech bros had a surprisingly low number of healthy teeth for a modern western first-world society

- An apartment with noisy air conditioning, dirty carpets and questionable building codes would cost more in rent than a villa at the Côte d’Azur.

- The air quality during fire season was a nightmare. During my time there I developed asthma.

- Everybody hated the arrogant ignorant tech people that invaded their communities, forced them out of their houses to then have to commute into the city or valley to serve tech bros. Yes, as a European I am not that well trained to constantly ignore that my privilege are causing the community around me to suffer. That I do not "earn" this gigantic salary, I am just grabbing the resources pretending the "normal" people don't deserve to have any of that.

You are getting paid so much because you in exchange are living in a sh*thole country without education, healthcare, public transport, clean air, or anything else that I as a "wealthy" developer person would expect to receive in exchange for my work.

Take your US salary, and invest it into a travel into some of the more up-to-date regions of the world. Those with clean air, education, healthcare. Places I have visited that are better than the Valley in this regard include:

- Pretty much all of Europe. Maybe with the exception of Greece and Spain, when they are now burning thanks to the "drill drill drill" people. - China - Iran - New Zealand - Australia - Canada ...

Yes, the amount of zeros on your US salary might look soooooooooooooooo impressive. But they are zeros. They don't buy you a livable live in a modern civilization.

Right now you are just bribed with money not to see the civil war getting ignited in minnesota.

Oh oh oh, now I remember! I have even been to two countries with civil wars a while ago, who had clean air, education and healthcare. And I think even directly after the civil war, all of Kosovo had a lower percentage of homeless people than the US has today.

Yes, another one of my drastic postings. But you will survive. Be brave: With someone who clearly is being paid a lot for being clever, I can assume that you think this through again, to calculate what the better deal is. You know the average amount of student debt people who want to become programmers have? Zero.

You are not getting more VALUE out of working in the US in high-tech compared to other places. There are places on this world, where being a good programmer buys you a wonderful life with nobody around you being poor, or without healthcare, or homeless. Try Estonia. They have a lovely tech community, a fully digital government. You can become a digital citizen, open your own company in minutes. And you will have a far better life.

Semaphor 5 hours ago||
Thought I'd have another look at mail providers, but from what I can see, none support the features I use with fastmail (custom domain, security key, unlimited on-the-fly aliases for sending).
gassi 5 hours ago|
They don't, but you shouldn't feel too bad as fastmail is australian, ie not american, which (at least personally) is where we're trying to divest.
sleepyhead 4 hours ago|||
Their servers are in the US
earthnail 4 hours ago||
Do they have any plans to move off the US?
Semaphor 4 hours ago|||
US servers, though.
jacquesm 4 hours ago||
This list is very impressive, but it is the wrong approach. We simply need an EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon etc.

The closer to a drop-in replacement the better. Tying all of these functional bits and pieces together to form a consistent whole is just not going to happen. You need to approach this on a per-company level.

So, who will step up to the plate and re-implement as much of Google as necessary to catch 80% of the functionality and their EU customers?

yabones 4 hours ago||
Isn't massive tech conglomerates locking people into their ecosystems how we got here in the first place? The quest to replace US with EU products is really just treating symptoms of the problems that tech has created in the past 2-3 decades.
jacquesm 4 hours ago||
Yes, but the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details, the bigger fear I have is that if such an EU alternative is successful that the US incumbents will swoop in and buy it and then you're back to square 1. That has happened quite a few times already.
palata 56 minutes ago|||
> the bigger fear I have is that if such an EU alternative is successful that the US incumbents will swoop in and buy it

That's usually what happens indeed. There is a lot of great tech coming from [the rest of the world] and being bought by the US.

> the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details

I kinda disagree there. The lack of competition is the problem today. If, instead of AWS, there were 50 services all over the world and companies were distributed amongst them, then it would be much less of a problem. The problem right now is that the US can bully entire countries because those countries 100% rely on US services.

Instead of building a European replacement for AWS, I would like to see open standards allowing companies to easily switch, and different providers competing behing those standards. Or even better: companies could even mix the services: say "I want my backups replicated between this French company and this Croatian one".

jacquesm 35 minutes ago||
That's obviously the idea, but unfortunately everybody just wants convenience instead of decentralization. Hence Mastodon's amazing adoption rate...
atmosx 3 hours ago||||
And the EU governments will be advertising it.. already happened in Greece… few companies with strong core tech were bought by Microsoft and the gov was “so happy” for the “success story”.

Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway

palata 1 hour ago||
> Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway

Though that's one of the easy ones. Get your own domain and you're free to use whatever you want forever.

jacquesm 34 minutes ago|||
That's not as simple as it may seem. I've been running my own mailserver on an alternate domain for decades now and it is one thing to be receiving mail there but to send it is a nightmare. Google, Microsoft etc have made it all but impossible to get through their anti-spam measures to the point that they reject tons of perfectly good mail.
trinix912 40 minutes ago|||
In theory yes, in practice the messages from your random domain way too often end up in spam for Gmail and Outlook users, if they get delivered at all.
toomuchtodo 3 hours ago|||
Is there a mechanism the EU could use to inhibit acquisition by a non EU entity?
jacquesm 3 hours ago|||
There is in France. They have a government investment arm that will invest relatively small amounts but with a string attached: a veto on any majority acquisition. This was used for instance to block the takeover of Dailymotion by Yahoo iirc.

It's a double edged sword: it may help in some cases but it hurts the investment scene overall because an exit to the USA is what most EU investors dream about because their returns overall are pretty crappy. Fragmented markets are a lot harder for investors than uniform ones.

atmosx 3 hours ago|||
It’s not a matter of mechanism. It’s a matter of mindset. Until today the mindset wasn’t there. Maybe this will change.
palata 1 hour ago||
I'm not convinced. If a company owner can get rich by selling their company to the devil himself, they will rationalise it so well that the employees will think it's helping humanity.
mixmastamyk 4 hours ago|||
A few friends and I have thought similarly, although we focused on Apple first and the Google/Office suite second. We wrote our thoughts here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/ and the alternatives here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/status.html

I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense for consumers or small business to have to wrangle dozens of IT providers. How can we consolidate them?

jacquesm 4 hours ago||
Excellent question and great to see you thinking in the same direction.

Consolidation of various open source projects is underway with projects such as owncloud but it is still very fragile and hard to maintain.

I think a pledge never to be bought out and a way to restrict stock to EU UBOs would be one step in the right direction, then you'll need a massive amount of capital to pull this off. But maybe the climate is finally right to raise a proper amount of money for such an undertaking.

mixmastamyk 4 hours ago||
Hmm, I wouldn't say it would take a "massive" amount of capital. EU is rich enough and they don't pay developers as well, correct? Most of the building blocks already exist.
jacquesm 3 hours ago||
Yes, but integrating them seamlessly and securely is still a huge undertaking.
petcat 3 hours ago||
> EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon

This is basically just saying "we need to start by replacing 5 of the richest and most powerful companies the world has ever seen".

I think the EU should start a little smaller so they might actually make some progress on digital sovereignty within the next century.

jacquesm 3 hours ago||
You don't have to do all five at once, and a proper replacement based on the integration of a number of partial solutions should in principle be workable. What is required is the capital and the will to do it. If someone pulls this off they can count on my company as a subscriber and I think there are many more like me.
sublimefire 4 hours ago||
It is good to have a dedicated location to find these. The problem is that you want a sufficiently large company when buying the services so that it does not fall apart or get acquired and runs to the ground, and we have a few. Also, putting a country flag to the service is cringe, it might even be odd to some because it implies a specific language/culture. We just all want to consume a proper business staffed with pros and the one which does not resell AWS services.
johneth 5 hours ago||
Is this only for companies within the EU or EFTA? I can't spot a single UK company listed, even though there are plenty that would fit.
kieranmaine 5 hours ago||
On https://european-alternatives.eu/about the listing criteria state:

> The company is based in an EU, EEA, EFTA, or DCFTA member country or in the UK.

but

> For hosting providers: It is not allowed that a hosting provider is simply a sub-hosting provider of a company that is not based in an EU or EFTA member country.

s_dev 5 hours ago||
https://european-alternatives.eu/about

It's all clarified here. If you think it's missing some great companies add them!

oulipo2 7 hours ago||
If you want an EU-made (and repairable!) e-bike battery, check what we're building at https://infinite-battery.com :)
agumonkey 6 hours ago|
an European energy sector (mainstream or industrial) HN would be great btw

ps: congrats on your success

enopod_ 8 hours ago||
Wow, nice! Great resource, thanks a lot!
hulitu 3 hours ago||
Funny, the first 3 are web analytics, cloud computing and CDN. So surveillance.

I would have expected an OS, an Office platform.

rambambram 4 hours ago|
The open web is your European alternative, not the Silicon Valley-approach but then in Europe. That just invites the same abuse of data, the same enshittification and the same rent-seeking behavior.
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