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Posted by s_dev 13 hours ago

European Alternatives(european-alternatives.eu)
611 points | 345 commentspage 4
hackomorespacko 12 hours ago|
[flagged]
OKRainbowKid 11 hours ago||
Be the change you want to see in this world.
po1nt 12 hours ago||
Do you have a license to ask these questions?
noo_u 9 hours ago||
[flagged]
Etheryte 9 hours ago|
Have you considered discussing TFA instead of tropes so worn and boring even you yourself can't be bothered to write them out?
noo_u 8 hours ago||
Are the worn, boring tropes false? Are they worth writing out again?
PlatoIsADisease 9 hours ago||
Ugh, back to nationalism.

I think there is some sort of Darwinistic reason for this. Maybe its inevitable.

Not to say that the US didn't help spur this, but its just sad to see.

When I was younger, I was such an idealist. Anarchy, open borders, free market open trade, pacifism.

Even as Trump started getting aggressive, I kept trying to tell myself: "Well, these other countries surly know that most of the population doesn't support this. Surely they know we are fans of liberalism, democracy, and human rights. One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years."

But I saw the comments of how quickly it seemed the general population of other nations flipped like a dime.

It has shooken me. (And I don't blame that its shooken them)

It has made me the exact person I was against. Now I think we really do need to look toward the national interest. If 1 bad politician can alienate us from 100+ years of debatably good behavior, why shouldn't we be selfish?

bildung 7 hours ago||
People in the US need to become more aware of the dramatic impact this current administration has on the world. A paper in the Lancet, not exactly your average leftie rag, extrapolates the deaths resulting from the sudden USAID defunding to amount to about 14 million people. That's about 10x Pol Pot.

People around the world distancing themselves from these actions is hardly nationalism.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

PlatoIsADisease 5 hours ago||
I'm sorry, my cognitive bias says 'Look! See! That proves my point at how great the US is/was.'

1 bad politician elected by a fraction of the population is enough to turn the world against us. Why bother with such altruism when a single election can turn everyone against us?

celsoazevedo 5 hours ago|||
But it's not just one politician or just one election. The current guy was elected twice. His position on tariffs, NATO, and Greenland are not new. The movement supporting him is unlikely to disappear any time soon. From the outside, it doesn't look like one wrong step, but just part of the new normal.

It's also important to understand that those on the receiving end of the threats are not taking them lightly. No one's laughing. It's easy to understand the change in behaviour if you understand this.

Back to the European Alternatives stuff, I've been looking at the services I use and which ones might become unavailable if, let's say, the US takes Greenland. It has nothing to do with nationalism, I just don't want to be caught with my pants down.

rkomorn 5 hours ago||||
Altruism is not transactional.

If you think the US' "altruism" should buy us goodwill, then you're not for altruism, you're for good PR.

maigret 3 hours ago|||
It was a single election in 2016, and a few governors and senators and… oh it’s actually a pattern, a system that people feign to ignore when convenient for them.
whackernews 1 hour ago|||
> Ugh, back to nationalism.

That’s a bit of a negative way to think about things. We’ve tried globalism, I don’t think it works. It’s utopian.

Small and distributed, this is the way. Not large and centralised. Stop over complicating things. If people just looked after themselves, their family, and their neighbours (in that order) the rest would figure itself out. This is how love works, it’s personal and intimate. I wish people would just stop trying to meddle with the world and let people be.

mg794613 7 hours ago|||
Can you imagine, knowing so little of the rest of the world, you call this nationalism without irony.

Sir, please read up on Wikipedia what the EU is. What Europe is. Also, this is a very mild response to a "American first" new world order.

PlatoIsADisease 5 hours ago||
Depends on what level you are looking at. Did you know the US is comprised of 50 states with their own laws and security forces?

Pedantic. My state didn't vote for the US president, yet you are looking to buy from a different state now.

daotoad 3 hours ago||
US states are, in some ways, less independent than UK countries.

Wales can no more disavow the PM than California can disavow POTUS. So this separate status is limited.

The big counter to this is the idea that US states have their own militaries. States may have militias, but they can be subsumed by the federal government pretty easily, as we saw in California in 2025. They are not truly independent armed forces.

OTOH, states are not allowed to leave the US, we had a war about this a while ago. Meanwhile Scotland had a referendum on leaving the UK a few years ago.

Love it or hate it, we are Americans first before we are New Yorkers or Mississipians and so forth. This is especially true when it comes to international relations; that's handled on a federal level and most people in the world couldn't tell a Nebraskan from an Alaskan.

sublimefire 8 hours ago|||
Buy local is a well known and used tactic globally in many places big and small. Another observation, saying it is nationalistic is odd given it involves multiple nationalities. US has protectionist policy EU has it, there is nothing new here. The odd thing is that it triggers the person for it being so small.
s_dev 7 hours ago|||
To clarify empowering the EU is literally the opposite of Nationalism or are you discussing the recent surge of 'American Exceptionalism' of the current US administration?
graemep 6 hours ago||
Brexit made to clear that for some people being in the EU is an important part of their identity so that enables EU nationalism for them.

There are racist European nationalists - the Anders Breivik type.

This website is not either. However I think its worth looking beyond Europe. Avoiding the US and China and a few other countries leaves a lot of possibilities.

dpc050505 7 hours ago|||
>One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years.

You're at 2 out of 3, while Biden was mid at best and your senate has been horrendous for a very long time.

sodapopcan 7 hours ago||
And who's to say it's not going to happen again in 2030?
surgical_fire 4 hours ago||
> Even as Trump started getting aggressive, I kept trying to tell myself: "Well, these other countries surly know that most of the population doesn't support this. Surely they know we are fans of liberalism, democracy, and human rights

A huge proportion of your electorate is actually not only fine with the current direction, but actively cheer on this.

> One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years."

This sounds a lot worse than you imagine. We will be always one election away of anothe asshole that will want to leveraged the US relative strength to cause harm. Better to not keep strengthening it.

> 100+ years of debatably good behavior, why shouldn't we be selfish?

I almost choked at this.

The US has a long history of fucking over other countries.

The only thing that changed is that it just decided to be more direct about it, even with former allies.

I actually prefer it this way.

m00dy 7 hours ago||
we should have also claude-alternatives like projects that are entirely built by vibe-coders.
tarkin2 10 hours ago||
Using a French server has been a pain. Their level of customer service is much worse than that in the US sadly
embedding-shape 10 hours ago||
"French server", what is that? Usually we judge customer service on the company, not the nationality of the hardware, care to share exactly where you had a bad experience?
retired 10 hours ago|||
I like it. No fake smiles, no tip required. They can be a bit grumpy but French food is amazing which makes up for it.
breezykoi 10 hours ago|||
That's what I like in the US: the servers are so friendly... and yes, I know it’s all for the tip.
GlacierFox 10 hours ago||
Well they're not friendly then are they? It's an act to get a tip - and if you don't you get chased down the street.
nolok 9 hours ago||
It's a different social contract. It's not just the waitress, it's service in general. One trying to judge the other is never quite going to work because it rubs us wrong in some weird internal way.

Eg go into a big store brand in most of the US and the cashier will be all flashy smile asking how is your day, and you ignore it and ask your request, and that's the game. A french person would mostly hate that, feel the question as annoying.

You go to a similar french store and the cashier and yourself will say the bonjour / merci / ... yada yada game and if someone doesn't do his part he's considered rude; I found a lot of foreigner surprised by that, the fact that you're not answering "merci" or asking "s'il vous plait" because it's nice, but because not doing it puts you in unpleasant person territory.

Ok business meeting, even in tech. American are always super optimist and happy, and seeing a solution and the end goal, French are over realist bordering on pessimist.

It's not that black and white of course there is a lot of inter mingling and differences, but overall which one you feel "better" is very personnal and based around what you're used to.

jimnotgym 10 hours ago|||
Have you tried Hetzner
tarkin2 10 hours ago||
No, I was looking for a French one. I'll persist with this for a while and then switch if things don't get better. Thanks
s_dev 10 hours ago||
Scaleway is slick. It's like a European Digital Ocean.
tailspin2019 8 hours ago|||
Agree, I’ve been impressed with Scaleway so far during some early experiments. Including a quick support response to a query I had.
troupo 9 hours ago|||
Last time I wanted to try it it was nowhere near DO: https://x.com/dmitriid/status/1835649083345649780
s_dev 9 hours ago||
You've posted that twice in this thread. I don't think it's as damning as you think it is.
mg794613 7 hours ago||
I agree, seems he's on a mission instead.
troupo 4 hours ago||
Ah yes. The "mission" of pointing out how bad companies are in the most trivial details.
cthulberg 10 hours ago||
OVH? I hate the dashboard, but the support seems fine to me.
jacquesm 7 hours ago|
This list is very impressive, but it is the wrong approach. We simply need an EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon etc.

The closer to a drop-in replacement the better. Tying all of these functional bits and pieces together to form a consistent whole is just not going to happen. You need to approach this on a per-company level.

So, who will step up to the plate and re-implement as much of Google as necessary to catch 80% of the functionality and their EU customers?

yabones 7 hours ago||
Isn't massive tech conglomerates locking people into their ecosystems how we got here in the first place? The quest to replace US with EU products is really just treating symptoms of the problems that tech has created in the past 2-3 decades.
jacquesm 7 hours ago||
Yes, but the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details, the bigger fear I have is that if such an EU alternative is successful that the US incumbents will swoop in and buy it and then you're back to square 1. That has happened quite a few times already.
palata 4 hours ago|||
> the bigger fear I have is that if such an EU alternative is successful that the US incumbents will swoop in and buy it

That's usually what happens indeed. There is a lot of great tech coming from [the rest of the world] and being bought by the US.

> the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details

I kinda disagree there. The lack of competition is the problem today. If, instead of AWS, there were 50 services all over the world and companies were distributed amongst them, then it would be much less of a problem. The problem right now is that the US can bully entire countries because those countries 100% rely on US services.

Instead of building a European replacement for AWS, I would like to see open standards allowing companies to easily switch, and different providers competing behing those standards. Or even better: companies could even mix the services: say "I want my backups replicated between this French company and this Croatian one".

jacquesm 3 hours ago||
That's obviously the idea, but unfortunately everybody just wants convenience instead of decentralization. Hence Mastodon's amazing adoption rate...
atmosx 6 hours ago||||
And the EU governments will be advertising it.. already happened in Greece… few companies with strong core tech were bought by Microsoft and the gov was “so happy” for the “success story”.

Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway

palata 4 hours ago||
> Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway

Though that's one of the easy ones. Get your own domain and you're free to use whatever you want forever.

jacquesm 3 hours ago|||
That's not as simple as it may seem. I've been running my own mailserver on an alternate domain for decades now and it is one thing to be receiving mail there but to send it is a nightmare. Google, Microsoft etc have made it all but impossible to get through their anti-spam measures to the point that they reject tons of perfectly good mail.
trinix912 3 hours ago|||
In theory yes, in practice the messages from your random domain way too often end up in spam for Gmail and Outlook users, if they get delivered at all.
toomuchtodo 6 hours ago|||
Is there a mechanism the EU could use to inhibit acquisition by a non EU entity?
jacquesm 6 hours ago|||
There is in France. They have a government investment arm that will invest relatively small amounts but with a string attached: a veto on any majority acquisition. This was used for instance to block the takeover of Dailymotion by Yahoo iirc.

It's a double edged sword: it may help in some cases but it hurts the investment scene overall because an exit to the USA is what most EU investors dream about because their returns overall are pretty crappy. Fragmented markets are a lot harder for investors than uniform ones.

atmosx 6 hours ago|||
It’s not a matter of mechanism. It’s a matter of mindset. Until today the mindset wasn’t there. Maybe this will change.
palata 4 hours ago||
I'm not convinced. If a company owner can get rich by selling their company to the devil himself, they will rationalise it so well that the employees will think it's helping humanity.
mixmastamyk 7 hours ago|||
A few friends and I have thought similarly, although we focused on Apple first and the Google/Office suite second. We wrote our thoughts here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/ and the alternatives here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/status.html

I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense for consumers or small business to have to wrangle dozens of IT providers. How can we consolidate them?

jacquesm 7 hours ago||
Excellent question and great to see you thinking in the same direction.

Consolidation of various open source projects is underway with projects such as owncloud but it is still very fragile and hard to maintain.

I think a pledge never to be bought out and a way to restrict stock to EU UBOs would be one step in the right direction, then you'll need a massive amount of capital to pull this off. But maybe the climate is finally right to raise a proper amount of money for such an undertaking.

mixmastamyk 7 hours ago||
Hmm, I wouldn't say it would take a "massive" amount of capital. EU is rich enough and they don't pay developers as well, correct? Most of the building blocks already exist.
jacquesm 6 hours ago||
Yes, but integrating them seamlessly and securely is still a huge undertaking.
petcat 6 hours ago||
> EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon

This is basically just saying "we need to start by replacing 5 of the richest and most powerful companies the world has ever seen".

I think the EU should start a little smaller so they might actually make some progress on digital sovereignty within the next century.

jacquesm 6 hours ago||
You don't have to do all five at once, and a proper replacement based on the integration of a number of partial solutions should in principle be workable. What is required is the capital and the will to do it. If someone pulls this off they can count on my company as a subscriber and I think there are many more like me.