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Posted by CharlesW 8 hours ago

Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee(arstechnica.com)
271 points | 287 commentspage 5
gambiting 7 hours ago|
The real question is why buys Teslas now, given that their owner is a proven fascist showing nazi salutes on stage. Do you have to say "sieg heil" to start it too?
weirdmantis69 7 hours ago||
good little sheeple.
gambiting 6 hours ago||
The people who buy teslas without looking at anything about the person who runs the company behind them?
savagej 6 hours ago||
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ipv6ipv4 7 hours ago||
In light of recent trends, Tesla is signaling supreme confidence in its prospects by already pursuing enshittification.
adamkittelson 7 hours ago|
They’ve been enshittifying for the better part of a decade. The model 3 launching without rain sensors and taking years to get any where near comparable with cameras comes to mind.
rootusrootus 7 hours ago||
It still is not anywhere close with cameras. My guess is that it will not ever get better than it is today.
cruffle_duffle 7 hours ago||
$99/month plus tax is a pretty fucking steep price for any kind of subscription! Holy cow!
jdsully 7 hours ago||
I sign up if I want to do a long road trip and cancel after. Worked great for that.
Analemma_ 7 hours ago||
If you have do a lot of driving, $99/mo. seems like a decent price to have the car drive itself, especially if it got to the Waymo point where absolutely no driver attention was needed and you could watch Netflix the whole time. The issue with FSD isn't the price, it's that no matter what Elon and his fanboys say, it doesn't bloody work and Waymo is blowing them out of the water in capability.
eldaisfish 6 hours ago||
The “if” here is lifting many metric tonnes of assumptions.
SilverElfin 7 hours ago||
Elon has been posting everyday about how awesome FSD is, interspersed with fearmongering about how white people will disappear, how “white culture” is at risk, and the need for remigration / ethnic cleansing to take back our country. It’s hard to take technical claims about FSD seriously when these other posts are completely deranged.

But some claims he makes seem like they’re plain factual. For example he’s claiming that Robotaxi rides in Austin don’t have human supervision now (https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/2014397578352226423). Is that true or is it that they’re just remotely monitoring them instead of sitting in the car?

Elon also retweeted Bloomberg’s fawning review of how perfect FSD is (https://xcancel.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014721293950590985), but I also see lots of people saying FSD is far less reliable than something like Waymo, and that intervention is frequently needed. To me it seems like all of a sudden, when it became obvious that Waymo is far ahead and Tesla’s stock is overvalued and China’s FSD competitors have caught up, there has been a push to say FSD is ready to be on streets just like Waymo.

Is this just a dangerous experiment on the public? Or has it actually improved in some way? Have they said what specific software improvements they built to make it ready for the public?

Veserv 6 hours ago||
Oh no, they are nowhere near confident enough for remote monitoring. They have a chase car following directly behind [1][2] which presumably has the power to initiate a remote emergency stop.

Of course this is the same system that likes to ignore train crossing red warning lights [3] so it can run into crossing trains. Very advanced.

[1] https://xcancel.com/joetegtmeyer/status/2014410572226322794

[2] https://electrek.co/2026/01/22/tesla-didnt-remove-the-robota...

[3] https://xcancel.com/RealDanODowd/status/1968788791805583629

ericmay 7 hours ago|||
> Is this just a dangerous experiment on the public? Or has it actually improved in some way?

Who is to say anyway? I don't trust Chinese company claims any more than I do Tesla's. Probably less because in America so many folks dislike Elon that even sometimes the negatives are blown out of proportion and are much more widely reported on.

Waymo's claims I trust a little bit more because they're often operated in extremely limited circumstances (why not just take a bus or walk or something), with supervision, and because I've heard of a number of bizarre incidents.

All of these tools and technologies are of moderate utility - if you're going to drive it's probably eventually going to be safer for most people (most of whom are exceptionally poor drivers) to just let the car drive. But if you remove the need for hopping in a car to go to Costco to get a jug of milk and instead allow people to just walk down the street a little ways you realize that these are just additive technologies.

If we built cities properly we wouldn't need to spend $50,000 on a car, plus maintenance and insurance, and now a $99.99 starting subscription which, will probably become mandatory at some point for insurance purposes, just to participate in daily life. That's not to say there's anything wrong with cars, I have one, a Tesla in fact, but requiring a car for existence leaves us all poorer and worse off.

qwerpy 7 hours ago||
Politics aside, FSD is quite awesome these days. It’s pretty much at “press a button and enjoy the ride” capability, although you do have to make a show of paying attention to the road. My truck came with lifetime FSD which I’m happy with, and two family members pay for the monthly subscription because of the quality of life improvement.
Zigurd 6 hours ago||
Would you take a nap in the backseat while you ride? How much more improvement do you think it would need before you'd be willing to do that?
Marsymars 4 hours ago|||
This is basically impossible to determine based on how safe the car "feels".

e.g. if it has a 99.9% chance of doing your daily commute without crashing and without you intervening, you can monitor it closely from the driver's seat for 6 months and there'll be ~90% chance that everything looks fine and you never need to intervene. But then if you start napping in the backseat on your commute, there's a 70% chance you'll crash within 5 years.

Zigurd 2 hours ago||
There are enough people who FA'ed and FO'ed in the form of ending up dead, or killing others, that we're not stuck in abstract calculations or speculation.
ronnier 6 hours ago|||
Safety wise, yes. But sometimes the routing is weird and I want to override that
ModernMech 7 hours ago||
This is part of the long con. They promised FSD almost a decade ago and as their competitors eclipse them, it's clear Tesla is a) behind and b) will never catch up.

So instead of admitting they were wrong all along and doing what's necessary to catch up (add LiDAR to their sensor stack), they are going to quietly "pivot" Tesla to a "ai and robotics" company, with the monthly fee they'll continue to bilk anyone who is still enthralled enough to believe them on their FSD grift, but they will run the same scam as they did with FSD (Musk will say "humanoid robots for the home in in 3 years", yet we will still be waiting for them to be useful in the year 2035)

rootusrootus 7 hours ago|
I'm not any kind of Elon fan, but I think it is a little more nuanced than that. FSD is definitely more advanced than any regular competition. It is not as capable as Waymo, that is for sure, but that is not a car you can own.
Zigurd 6 hours ago|||
Apart from the technical limitations of FSD, Elon hasn't thought through the business model. Claiming that Tesla cars will be capable of turning into robotaxis seemed plausible a decade ago before all the negative externalities of Airbnb became widely known.

Waymo isn't just the Waymo Driver technology and sensor suite. It's charging and cleaning depots. It's product support both for the customer and the vehicle that scales. It's an insane amount of LiDAR acquired 3-D mapping data, plus real time data from Google maps and navigation.

Meanwhile Tesla has replaced some of the drivers sitting in the front seat with chase cars. Just to make the technically correct claim that the cars are no longer supervised by someone in the car.

ModernMech 7 hours ago|||
Their vision-only system will never live up to promises without inventing an AGI-level inference engine. Maintaining an aura that they are capable of doing this is part of the con. A kind of, shangri-la promise of harmonious one-true vision system that to date has not come true despite promises of its impending coming.
jackmarshl0w 7 hours ago||
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7e 8 hours ago||
Elon Musk wants you to pay for something which might kill you or someone else, all while not accepting any liability. So you still have to do the work, but with added danger. This guy is delusional.
ben_w 7 hours ago||
"Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi

- George Lucas

kccoder 7 hours ago||
I'm going to go with the fool being followed. At least the following fool realizes that they need guidance, but just chose the wrong leader.
scottyah 7 hours ago||
This sounds like almost every other product I buy, except it's designed to eventually save a lot of lives? Imagine being mad that a kitchen knife has no liability for what you do with it, or a motorcycle.
7e 6 hours ago|||
Currently it's more dangerous to use FSD than to not use FSD. They can charge me when it's not a danger to society; I will gladly pay. Most likely I will be paying Waymo.
FireBeyond 7 hours ago|||
Imagine if professional medical equipment designed to save lives had no liability clauses?

Except they do.

Which is why there's FDA certification and regulation and the Lifepak 15s I used as a paramedic cost around $40,000.

Mercedes was also willing to put their money where their mouth was and accept liability for vehicle software issues. (Cue here the Tesla stans talking about "how limited" that was. Almost perhaps as if it was for a good reason and not "if it compiles, ship it").

ericd 7 hours ago||
It sounds like the point you're making is that manufacturers taking liability will make all of this unaffordable for normal people, similar to how medicine has become unaffordable?

I don't think that's actually your point, but it sort of sounds like it.

FireBeyond 7 hours ago||
There are probably elements of that but my read of the post I replied to was "why on earth would you expect manufacturers of equipment to accept liability for misuse?" (I actually agree about misuse, but malfunction is not the same.)

And "in the context of something that is designed to save lives"... well, absolutely, many manufacturers do and will and even "have to".

moomoo11 7 hours ago||
Taycan Turbo GT mogs any Plaid cult member.
linuxftw 7 hours ago||
I don't see what the issue is. No one is forced to buy a tesla, no pay for the subscription. It seems likely that self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years, it's not like it's 0 cost to them to develop and distribute the software.

I'm not a Tesla fan, I will never own a fully self driving car, but I don't have a problem with a company charging money for features that consumers want. There are about a dozen other car manufacturers in the US alone that can sell self driving cars without a subscription if they want to.

rootusrootus 7 hours ago||
> self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years

Autopilot is not self-driving, it is lane-centering with traffic aware cruise control. It has not gotten any maintenance or updates in years, as far as we can tell.

Identical functionality is available from many competitors with no subscription. This is a noteworthy decision for Tesla because AP has long been one of their defining features, dropping it is a big step backward just as the market caught up.

linuxftw 6 hours ago||
Well, the market will decide if dropping it in favor of a subscription-based upgrade is worth it or not. Not sure why anyone would be upset, this all seems perfectly reasonable.
cosmicgadget 7 hours ago||
They are taking away a standard feature for most modern cars as a sad way to push more people into their shitty CaaS model.

Nobody is forced to buy a Tesla, correct, but that isn't a requirement for newsworthiness.

lisp2240 7 hours ago|
All Teslas should be banned. This has gone on long enough.
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