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Posted by timr 1 day ago

A flawed paper in management science has been cited more than 6k times(statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu)
699 points | 360 commentspage 2
slow_typist 1 day ago|
The problem is in parts, how confirmatory statistics work, and how journals work. Most journals wouldn’t publish „we really tried very hard to get significance that x causes y but found nothing. Probably, and contrary to our prior beliefs, y is completely independent of x.“

Even if nobody would cheat and massage data, we would still have studies that do not replicate on new data. 95 % confidence means that one in twenty surveys finds an effect that is only noise. The reporting of failed hypothesis testing would really help to find these cases.

So pre-registration helps, and it would also help to establish the standard that everything needed to replicate must be published, if not in the article itself, then in an accompanying repository.

But in the brutal fight for promotion and resources, of course labs won’t share all their tricks and process knowledge. Same problem if there is an interest in using the results commercially. E.g. in EE often the method is described in general but crucial parts of the code or circuit design are held back.

niccl 1 day ago|
obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/882/
slow_typist 1 day ago||
Haha yeah pretty much nails it.
burgen 1 day ago||
The discussion has mostly revolved around the scientific system (it definitely has plenty of problems), but how about ethics?

The paper in question shows - credibly or not - that companies focusing on sustainability perform better in a variety of metrics, including generating revenue. In other words: Not only can you have companies that do less harm, but these ethically superior companies also make more money. You can have your cake and eat it too. It likely has given many people a way to align their moral compass with their need to gain status and perform well within our system.

Even if the paper is a completely fabrication, I'm convinced it has made the world a better a place. I can't help but wonder if Gelman and King paused to consider the possible repercussions of their actions, and of what kinds of motivations they might have had. The linked post briefly dips into ethics, benevolently proclaiming that the original authors of the paper are not necessarily bad people.

Which feels ironic, as it seems to me that Gelman and King are doing the wrong here.

thayne 1 day ago||
> and that replicators should tread very lightly

That is not at all how science is supposed to work.

If a result can't be replicated, it is useless. Replicators should not be told to "tread lightly", they should be encouraged. And replication papers should be published, regardless of the result (assuming they are good quality).

necovek 1 day ago||
Being practical, and understanding the gamification of citation counts and research metrics today, instead of going for a replication study and trying to prove a negative, I'd instead go for contrarian research which shows a different result (or possibly excludes the original result; or possibly doesn't even if it does not confirm it).

These probably have bigger chance of being published as you are providing a "novel" result, instead of fighting the get-along culture (which is, honestly, present in the workplace as well). But ultimately, they are (research-wise! but not politically) harder to do because they possibly mean you have figured out an actual thing.

Not saying this is the "right" approach, but it might be a cheaper, more practical way to get a paper turned around.

Whether we can work this out in research in a proper way is linked to whether we can work this out everywhere else? How many times have you seen people tap each other on the back despite lousy performance and no results? It's just easier to switch private positions vs research positions, so you'll have more of them not afraid to highlight bad job, and well, there's this profit that needs to pay your salary too.

em500 1 day ago|
Most of these studies get published based on elaborate constructions of essentially t-tests for differences in means between groups. Showing the opposite means showing no statistical difference, which is almost impossible to get published, for very human reasons.
necovek 1 day ago||
My point was exactly not to do that (which is really an unsuccesfull replication), but instead to find the actual, live correlation between the same input rigourously documented and justified, and new "positive" conclusion.

As I said, harder from a research perspective, but if you can show, for instance, that sustainable companies are less profitable with a better study, you have basically contradicted the original one.

bradley13 1 day ago||
"We should distinguish the person from the deed"

No, we shouldn't. Research fraud is committed by people, who must be held accountable. In this specific case, if the issues had truly been accidental, the author's would have responded and revised their paper. They did not, ergo their false claims were likely deliberate.

That the school and the journal show no interest - equally bad, and deserving of public shaming.

Of course, this is also a consequence of "publish or perish."

shiandow 1 day ago||
I appreciate the convenience of having the original text on hand, as opppsed to having to download it of Dropbox of all places.

But if you're going to quote the whole thing it seems easier to just say so rather than quoting it bit by bit interspersed with "King continues" and annotating each I with [King].

pbhjpbhj 1 day ago||
Isn't at least part of the problem with replication that journals are businesses. They're selling in part based on limited human focus, and on desire to see something novel, to see progress in one's chosen field. Replications don't fit a commercial publications goals.

Institutions could do something, surely. Require one-in-n papers be a replication. Only give prizes to replicated studies. Award prize monies split between the first two or three independent groups demonstrating a result.

The 6k citations though ... I suspect most of those instances would just assert the result if a citation wasn't available.

mike_hearn 1 day ago||
Journals aren't really businesses in the conventional sense. They're extensions of the universities: their primary customers and often only customers are university libraries, their primary service is creating a reputation economy for academics to decide promotions.

If the flow of tax, student debt and philanthropic money were cut off, the journals would all be wiped out because there's no organic demand for what they're doing.

arter45 1 day ago||
Not in academia myself, but I suspect the basic issue is simply that academics are judged by the number of papers they publish.

They are pushed to publish a lot, which means journals have to review a lot of stuff (and they cannot replicate findings on their own). Once a paper is published on a decent journal, other researchers may not "waste time" replicating all findings, because they also want to publish a lot. The result is papers getting popular even if no one has actually bothered to replicate the results, especially if those papers are quoted by a lot of people and/or are written by otherwise reputable people or universities.

jokoon 1 day ago||
It's harder to do social/human science because it's just easier to make mistakes that leads to bias. It's harder to do in maths, physics, biology, medecine, astronomy, etc.

I often say that "hard sciences" have often progressed much more than social/human sciences.

marginalia_nu 1 day ago||
Funny you say that, as medicine is one of the epicenters of the replication crisis[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis#In_medicine

QuadmasterXLII 1 day ago||
you get a replication crisis on the bleeding edge between replication being possible and impossible. There’s never going to be a replication crisis in linear algebra, there’s never going to be a replication crisis in theology, there definitely was a replication crisis in psych and a replication crisis in nutrition science is distinctly plausible and would be extremely good news for the field as it moves through the edge.
nickpsecurity 1 day ago||
Leslie Lamport came up with a structured method to find errors in proof. Testing it on a batch, he found most of them had errors. Peter Guttman's paper on formal verification likewise showed many "proven" or "verified" works had errors that were spottes quickly upon informal review or testing. We've also see important theories in math and physics change over time with new information.

With the above, I think we've empirically proven that we can't trust mathmeticians more than any other humans We should still rigorously verify their work with diverse, logical, and empirical methods. Also, build ground up on solid ideas that are highly vetted. (Which linear algebra actually does.)

The other approach people are taking are foundational, machine-checked, proof assistants. These use a vetted logic whose assistant produces a series of steps that can be checked by a tiny, highly-verified checker. They'll also oftne use a reliable formalism to check other formalisms. The people doing this have been making everything from proof checkers to compilers to assembly languages to code extraction in those tools so they are highly trustworthy.

But, we still need people to look at the specs of all that to see if there are spec errors. There's fewer people who can vet the specs than can check the original English and code combos. So, are they more trustworthy? (Who knows except when tested empirically on many programs or proofs, like CompCert was.)

uriegas 1 day ago||
I agree. Most of the time people think STEM is harder but it is not. Yes, it is harder to understand some concepts, but in social sciences we don't even know what the correct concepts are. There hasn't been so much progress in social sciences in the last centuries as there was for STEM.
diamondage 1 day ago||
I'm not sure if you're correct. In fact there has been a revolution in some areas of social science in the last two decades due to the availability of online behavioural data.
recursivecaveat 1 day ago||
I don't understand why it has been acceptable to not upload a tarball of your data with the paper in the internet age. Maybe the Asset4 database is only available with license and they can't publish too much. However, the key concern with the method is a pairwise matching of companies which is an invention of the paper authors and should be totally clear to publish. The number of stories I've heard from people forensically investigating PDF plots to uncover key data from a paper is absurd.

Of course doing so is not free and it takes time. A paper represents at least months of work in data collection, analysis, writing, and editing though. A tarball seems like a relatively small amount of effort to provide an huge increase in confidence for the result.

bradley13 1 day ago|
This. I did my dissertation in the early '90s, so very early days of the internet. All of my data and code was online.

IMHO this should be expected for any, literally any publication. If you have secrets, or proprietary information, fine - but then, you don't get to publish.

glitchc 1 day ago|
This is simply a case of appeal to authority. No reviewer or editor would reject a paper from either HBS or LBS, let alone a joint paper between the two. Doing so would be akin to career suicide.

And therein lies the uncomfortable truth: Collaborative opportunities take priority over veracity in publications every time.

cloud-oak 1 day ago|
That's why double-blind review shohld be the norm. It's wild to me that single-blind is still the norm in kost disciplines.
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