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Posted by validatori 1 day ago

Oneplus phone update introduces hardware anti-rollback(consumerrights.wiki)
454 points | 267 commentspage 3
jnwatson 1 day ago|
So much ignorance in this thread. There's nothing new here. All manufacturers worth their salt have this feature.

This is ultimately about making the device resistant to downgrade attacks. This is what discourages thieves from stealing your phone.

concinds 1 day ago||
I've been dismayed by how fast the "we should own our hardware" crowd has so quickly radicalized into "all security features are evil", and "no security features should exist for anyone".

Not just "there should be some phone brands that cater to me", but "all phone brands, including the most mainstream, should cater to me, because everyone on earth cares more about 'owning their hardware' than evil maid attack prevention, Cellebrite government surveillance, theft deterrence, accessing their family photos if they forget their password, revocable code-signing with malware checks so they don't get RATs spying on their webcam, etc, and if they don't care about 'owning their hardware' more than that, they are wrong".

It is objectively extremist and fanatical.

ShroudedNight 1 day ago|||
"No security features should exist for anyone" is itself fanatically hyperbolic narrative. The primary reason this event has elicited such a reaction is because OnePlus has historically been perceived as one of the brands specifically catering to people that wanted ultimate sovereignty over their devices.

As time goes on, the options available for those that require such sovereignty seem to be thinning to such an extent that [at least absent significant disposable wealth] the remaining options will appear to necessitate adopting lifestyle changes comparable to high-cost religious practices and social withdrawal, and likely without the legal protections afforded those protected classes. Given the "big tech's" general hostility to user agency and contempt for values that don't consent to being subservient to its influence peddling, intense emotional reaction to loss of already diminished traditional allies seem like something that would reasonably viewed compassionately, rather than with hostility.

bri3d 1 day ago||||
I’ve posted about this on HN before; I think that there’s a dangerous second-order enshittification going on where people are so jaded by a few bad corporate actions that they believe that everyone is out to get them and hardware is evil. The most disappointing thing to me is that this has led to a complete demolition of curiosity; rather than learning that OTP is an ancient and essential concept in hardware, the brain-enshittification has led to “I see hardware anti-*, I click It’s Evil” with absolutely no thought or research applied.
userbinator 1 day ago|||
Given how the opposition has radicalized into "you should own nothing and be happy", it's not surprising.

None of the situations you mentioned are realistic or even worth thinking about for the vast majority of the population. They're just an excuse to put even more control into the manufacturer's hands.

foxes 1 day ago||
How is graphene considered the most secure phone os but you can still flash on new firmware?

I don't care if they can downgrade the device, just that I boot into a secure verified environment, and my data is protected.

I also think thieves will just grab your phone regardless, they can still sell the phone for parts, or just sell it anyway as a scam etc.

jnwatson 1 day ago||
The attack is simple: the attacker downgrades the phone to a version of firmware that has a vulnerability. The attacker then uses the vulnerability to get at your data. Your data is PIN-protected? The attacker uses the vulnerability to disable the PIN lockout and tries all of them.

There's over a 10x difference in fence price between a locked and unlocked phone. That's a significant incentive/deterrent.

foxes 1 day ago||
Don't pixels have a security chip that is supposed to make that infeasible?

It has some increasing timer for auth, and if you try and factory reset it - it destroys all the data?

As I said its less important that the thief can boot a new os, the security of my data is more important. How is that compromised?

It feels like a thief is just going to opportunistically grab a phone from you rather than analyse what device it is.

plutokras 1 day ago||
Nintendo has been doing this for ages.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773214

InsomniacL 1 day ago||
Does intentionally physically damaging a device fall foul of any laws that a software restriction otherwise wouldn't?
charcircuit 1 day ago||
This is industry standard. Flashing old updates that are insecure to bypass security is a legitimate attack vector that needs to be defended against. Ideally it would still be possible up recover from such a scenario by flashing the latest update.
digiown 1 day ago||
Standard?? The standard is for the upgrade to be refused or not boot until you flash a newer one, not to brick the phone permanently. It's not an "ideally" thing for the manufacturer to not intentionally brick your device you bought and paid for.
charcircuit 1 day ago|||
>and you may damage your device permanently

https://service.oneplus.com/us/search/search-detail?id=op588

They make it clear that this feature is unsupported and it's possible to mess things up. The reason why it's an ideal and not an expectation is that flashing alternate operating systems is done at one's own risk and is unsupported. They have already told the users that they bear no responsibility for what may go wrong if they flash the wrong thing on that device. Flashing incompatible operating systems to the device requires people to be careful and proper care to ensure compatibility before going through with flashing was not done.

orbital-decay 1 day ago||
What's being attacked in this particular case?
charcircuit 1 day ago||
The phone. It's the same attacks that secure boot tries to protect against. The issue is that these old, vulnerable versions have a valid signature allowing them to be installed.
direwolf20 1 day ago||
I thought they were the one okay manufacturer. Guess not.
mycall 1 day ago||
How hard is it to fix a fuse with a microscope and a steady hand?
QuiEgo 1 day ago||
Very hard. FIB is the only known way to do this but even then, that's the type of thing where you start with a pile of SoCs and expect to maybe get lucky with one in a hundred. A FIB machine is also millions of dollars.
userbinator 1 day ago||
You'll need at least an electron microscope... but defeating MCU readout protection using a FIB is actually a thing:

https://www.eag.com/services/engineering/fib-circuit-edit-de...

Costs are what you'd expect for something of this nature.

neals 22 hours ago||
How does an eFuse even work?
zb3 1 day ago||
It's Google's fault. I want to buy a smartphone without AVB at all. With no "secure boot" fuse blown (yes I DO know that this is not the same fuse) and ideally I'd want to provision my own keys.

But vendors wouldn't be able to say the device runs "Android" as it's trademarked. AVB is therefore mandatory and in order for AVB to be enforced, you can't really control the device - unlocking the bootloader gives you only partial control, you can't flash your own "abl" to remove AVB entirely.

But I don't want AVB and I can't buy such device for money.. this isn't free market, this is Google monopoly..

digiown 1 day ago|
The closest thing you can get is probably the Pixel, ironically. You can provision your own keys, enroll it into AVB, and re-lock the bootloader. From the phone hardware's perspective there is no difference between your key and Google's. No fuse is ever blown.
zb3 1 day ago||
That's not really true, there will be a warning shown that "the phone is loading a different operating system" - I've seen that when installing GrapheneOS on my pixel.

But it's not just about that, it's about the fact that I can't flash my own "abl" or the software running in the TrustZone there at all as I don't control the actual signing keys (not custom_avb_key) and I'm not "trusted" by my own device.. There were fuses blown as evident by examining abl with its fastboot commands - many refuse to work saying I can't use it on a "production device". Plus many of those low-level partitions are closed source proprietary blobs..

Yes yes - I DO understand that for most people this warning is something positive, otherwise you could buy a phone with modified software without realizing it and these modifications could make it impossible to restore the original firmware.

digiown 1 day ago||
Ah, I forgot about the warning. Are the blown fuses you're talking about related to to your unlocking though? Or did they just remove the debug functions. I guess it reduces the attack surface somewhat.

I do agree it's far from ideal though. But there are so many, much worse offenders that uses these fuses to actually remove features, and others that do not allow installing a different OS at all. The limited effort should probably be spent on getting rid of those first.

zb3 1 day ago||
I'm not sure I'd agree with your last conclusion, we as consumers can choose what to buy, so for me the situation where there's one brand that produces open devices (with competing specs, not like pinephone..) where I could install postmarketos/ubuntu touch without any parts of android would be better than there being many brands producing smartphones allowing only basic unlocking and without open firmware.

Of course there are bigger problems in the ecosystem, like Play Integrity which actively attempt to punish me for buying open hardware. Unfortunately that's the consequence of putting "trusted" applications where they IMO don't belong - there are smartcards with e-ink displays and these could be used for things like banking confirmations, providing the same security but without invading my personal computing devices. But thanks to Android and iOS, banks/governments went for the anti-user option.

pengaru 1 day ago|
Glad I didn't give these people any of my hard earned dollars.
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