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Posted by todsacerdoti 17 hours ago

MapLibre Tile: a modern and efficient vector tile format(maplibre.org)
402 points | 79 commentspage 2
twelvechairs 15 hours ago|
Looks great. I wish there was similar advancement for full 3d tiles. The only real option at the moment is cesiums 3d tiles format which is nowhere near as fast as it could/should be
shirol 13 hours ago||
Unrelated, but I noticed that clicking the logo goes to the current permalink rather than the homepage, might be unintentional.
CommanderStorm 2 hours ago|
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willtemperley 14 hours ago||
Another thing worth mentioning is it's very similar to the structure of columnar formats like Arrow and Parquet. Anyone with familiarity with these formats could build a decoder in a couple of days. If they don't use FastPFOR.

I really wish they hadn't used FastPFOR. It's a research library and has an incredibly opaque algorithm:

https://ayende.com/blog/199523-C/integer-compression-underst...

CommanderStorm 2 hours ago|
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mips_avatar 11 hours ago||
I just want support for globe view on maplibre native
CommanderStorm 2 hours ago|
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QuiCasseRien 15 hours ago||
All links in the top navigation are broken (404).
dzogchen 14 hours ago|
Sorry about that. Noticed the footnote was broken.

Fixed the footnote, broke all other links. Should be OK again when the caches catch up.

ltbarcly3 14 hours ago||
"Modern" is such a silly way to advertise things.
dzogchen 11 hours ago||
We don't have a marketing department, so we're happy to take suggestions on our messaging!

What makes it modern are the ideas behind it: the column-oriented layout, support for lightweight encodings such as FSST and FastPFOR and support for pre-tessellation. Also, enabling doing more computations on the GPU instead of the CPU, which are made possible thanks to modern graphics APIs like Vulkan and Metal. I agree that it is better to be specific about these things (if that is your gripe with it), but there's only so many characters that fit into a title. ;)

xigoi 12 hours ago|||
Although the word is overused, hindsight can be a huge advantage in design.
sjg-wet-dog 11 hours ago||
It should be backed up, for sure. Like how is this modern?

In this case it's the column format for attributes and the newer encodings. Things the industry wasn't doing a decade ago.

einpoklum 14 hours ago||
I am not familiar with the ecosystem of geographic data and mapping as online services. Can someone please explain...

* How this tile format, or the organization behind it, related to OpenStreetMap (if it is related at all)?

* Why the need to replace the previous tile format / scheme which they mention?

* What challenges such a project faces (other than, I suppose, being noticed and considered for adoption)?

wiredfool 14 hours ago||
1) It's not. Maplibre is a JS library for displaying map data. OpenStreetMap is a collection of map data that is published in various formats. Different levels of the stack.

2) It's an optimization/advancement. There are some pain points in the older version that 10 years of experience can fix in a newer format.

3) Attention, funding. Technically, they're at the leading edge of open source.

WorldMaker 12 hours ago|||
Additionally to point 2, the older format was created by a company (Mapbox) that used to be open source-friendly but has recently made a larger pushback against open source and open standards, changing the licenses of much of their formerly open source work. (The Maplibre JS library itself is a fork of that company's previous open source work from its last open source drop to keep the work open source.)
mmooss 9 hours ago|||
> There are some pain points in the older version that 10 years of experience can fix in a newer format.

What were the major pain points? Compression ratio and speed seem like two of them. (Thanks for answering the elementary questions.)

usrusr 12 hours ago||
The key info token you'll want to know as someone foreign to map topics is that maplibre is a licence continuity fork of the formerly open source Mapbox code.

Everything else pretty much derives from this, e.g. yeah, OSM did not suddenly go all in on former mapbox stuff only because the company started keeping updates behind a paywall, OSM continues to be as tool-agnostic as ever.

maximgeorge 13 hours ago||
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adim86 14 hours ago|
I find it shocking that a reputable resource such as this is still displaying the size of Greenland or Africa wrong (Mercator projection) in relation to other land masses in its marketing material and documentation, like here. It just brings doubt to the whole project, which is a shame considering all the time they must have put in. Why show the map that way when majority of its users will never use it for nautical navigation? https://maplibre.org/maplibre-gl-js/docs/examples/display-a-...
dan-robertson 14 hours ago||
I’m not sure it’s very useful to rehash an argument with very tenuous relation to the OP here. The normal reason to use the Mercator projection in these situations is (a) it’s what people are used to and (b) it preserves angles so if you zoom in on a street then up will still be north and roads that are at right angles in the real world appear to be at right angles on the map. The latter property is pretty desirable and hard to achieve without doing some weird transition between projections as you zoom. This matters more for Europe (and I suppose parts of British Colombia) where there is a high population density at latitudes that are pretty extreme in much of the world.

I think Apple Maps has a pretty reasonable compromise here of transitioning from a globe to Mercator as you zoom, but this is a less nice UI with a mouse as you need to click to rotate the globe instead of pointing and zooming only. I don’t think there’s anything in this data that would make that unachievable – you just need to reproject the vector data a bit as you zoom out – but it takes some tricky mathematics to get right and so hasn’t been done yet.

willtemperley 12 hours ago||
It's an important discussion because it's abundantly clear that almost nobody on this thread has a clue what they're talking about.

Web Mercator != Mercator.

I suggest most people on this thread need to go away ask the question "What's the difference between Web Mercator and Mercator".

Symbiote 6 hours ago||
For most uses of web maps (navigation on foot, by bicycle or by car) the angles seem to be close enough with Web Mercator, and the map is zoomed in to a small area so there's no concern about the area.

No-one is zooming out the "Find your nearest Tesco" map to see Greenland.

dzogchen 14 hours ago|||
It's on our roadmap to support alternate projections, but as you can imagine it's a big project that so far nobody has been willing to pay for to implement unfortunately.

MapLibre GL JS does support globe mode. https://maplibre.org/maplibre-gl-js/docs/examples/display-a-... May we should update our examples to use globe mode when showing examples, especially those that show a world map. We will take that feedback into consideration!

You can use the Equal Earth projection with a plugin: https://equal.bbox.earth/maplibre-americas/

readyplayeremma 12 hours ago||
MapLibre's globe mode is both fantastic and performant. Also, it's literally just the one option to change it, and your tile formats/CRS don't need to change either.

It's the easiest way to escape from web mercator projections with no real downsides that I have discovered yet. Also, there is a built-in control if you want to offer a button to toggle between web mercator view, and globe view, since it's all just rendering changes.

workmandan 14 hours ago|||
Web Mercator is the standard projection used on the web, if you think the we should use a different projection on the web then that's a completely separate argument
willtemperley 14 hours ago|||
It's actually worse than that because the Web Mercator projection is unusable for navigation too - it doesn't preserve angles or area! (Angles are nearly preserved).

Well done Google. Slow handclap.

The NGA advised it's likely to cause geolocation errors of up to 40km near the poles:

https://www.gpsworld.com/nga-issues-advisory-notice-on-web-m...

mourner 10 hours ago|||
You can read more about why most web maps are like this and a quest to fix this in this article: https://www.mapbox.com/blog/adaptive-projections
bottled_poe 14 hours ago|||
Accuracy where it matters is why. Do you have a better suggestion for projecting a sphere onto a rectangle?
einpoklum 14 hours ago|||
I would not use such strong rhetoric as the GP, but I believe they probably mean we should lean towards using the Gall/Peters projection, which maintains lengths and areas, but not angles.

(There are of course other projections with other interesting features; or you could take the same projection but center the world differently etc.)

ecshafer 12 hours ago|||
Why? Why is lengths and areas more important than angles? You have to choose one, its essentially arbitrary. Personally I find it more useful to know what is parallel to what and what is at which angles from what, than some size. We have globes, so we know what the "real size" of Greenland looks like... this has always been a silly argument from the overzealous online looking for right wrongs that don't exist.
willtemperley 12 hours ago||
WEB MERCATOR DOES NOT PRESERVE ANGLES.
ecshafer 12 hours ago||
I know. But they mentioned Mercator, not Web Mercator.
willtemperley 12 hours ago||
They were talking about Web Mercator but didn’t know they were!
willtemperley 13 hours ago|||
Web Mercator does not preserve angles.

We're currently forced to use a projection that is strictly worse than what it was based on, the Mercator projection, created in 1569.

Everyone on this thread needs to read this presentation entitled "Use Literally Anything But Web Mercator":

https://www.esri.com/content/dam/esrisites/en-us/events/conf...

Let's say that a bit louder shall we:

USE LITERALLY ANYTHING BUT WEB MERCATOR.

willtemperley 14 hours ago|||
This comment is inaccurate! Web Mercator causes such large errors in geolocation that the NGA had to issue an advisory about it [1].

There is a whole science behind map projections and Google ignored it entirely when they created Web Mercator, which was a hack to divide the world into a quad tree. It was vaguely clever and utterly stupid at the same time.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20140607003201/http://earth-info...

willtemperley 12 hours ago|||
> Accuracy where it matters is why

Why the downvotes for correcting this laughable statement? Web Mercator is well documented as being extremely inaccurate.

mmooss 9 hours ago||
Hi - I understand you feel strongly; your Web Mercator input is interesting. I would just focus on the intellectually interesting part - people might not get it; you can't control that or compel them to.

You've been repeating essentially the same comment, writing in all caps (in some comments), complaining about downvotes, telling everyone they are idiots one way or another. None of those things are likely to be welcome.

trgn 14 hours ago|||
Web mercator is fantastic map. It's well known of course, so very helpful to orient. Plus, its square and easily tile-able, which is good for performance. Shapes of countries are preserved. Plus, the lines are straight, which works great for on screen. Neat and tidy.

Who cares Greenland looks big when zoomed out. "Mercator distorts size" is one of those gis-nerd idee fixes, the first factoid they learn in class, and it overwhelms all thought.

mmooss 9 hours ago|||
> Who cares Greenland looks big when zoomed out.

You never know - one day, the geography of Greenland could matter quite a bit to the rest of the world.

fragmede 8 hours ago|||
Maybe you shouldn't have skipped that class if you don't think it's important.
Flatterer3544 14 hours ago|||
You're a bit hasty, for the users that needs mercator projections, they should be able to get it, see: https://maplibre.org/maplibre-gl-js/docs/API/type-aliases/Pr...
lars_francke 14 hours ago|||
Because that's what everyone is used to.

Maplibre supports different projections if you want.

xigoi 12 hours ago|||
Not everyone has a spherical monitor.
techterrier 14 hours ago||
obligatory West Wing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY
ecshafer 12 hours ago||
This episode never made any sense at all. We already have globes for true sizes.