Posted by indigodaddy 3 days ago
SSH was never really meant to be a high performance data transfer tool, and it shows. For example, it has a hardcoded maximum receive buffer of 2MiB (separate from the TCP one), which drastically limits transfer speed over high BDP links (even a fast local link, like the 10gbps one the author has). The encryption can also be a bottleneck. hpn-ssh [1] aims to solve this issue but I'm not so sure about running an ssh fork on important systems.
The issue is the serialization of operations. There is overhead for each operation which translates into dead time between transfers.
However there are issues that can cause singular streams to underperform multiple streams in the real world once you reach a certain scale or face problems like packet loss.
rsync's man page says "pipelining of file transfers to minimize latency costs" and https://rsync.samba.org/how-rsync-works.html says "Rsync is heavily pipelined".
If pipelining is really in rsync, there should be no "dead time between transfers".
I don't know what rsync does on top of that (pipelining could mean many different things), but my empirical experience is that copying 1 1 TB file is far faster than copying 1 billion 1k files (both sum to ~1 TB), and that load balancing/partitioning/parallelizing the tool when copying large numbers of small files leads to significant speedups, likely because the per-file overhead is hidden by the parallelism (in addition to dealing with individual copies stalling due to TCP or whatever else).
I guess the question is whether rsync is using multiple threads or otherwise accessing the filesystem in parallel, which I do not think it does, while tools like rclone, kopia, and aws sync all take advantage of parallelism (multiple ongoing file lookups and copies).
No, that is not the question. Even Wikipedia explains that rsync is single-threaded. And even if it was multithreaded "or otherwise" used concurent file IO:
The question is whether rsync _transmission_ is pipelined or not, meaning: Does it wait for 1 file to be transferred and acknowledged before sending the data of the next?
Somebody has to go check that.
If yes: Then parallel filesystem access won't matter, because a network roundtrip has brutally higher latency than reading data sequentially of an SSD.
If copying a folder with many files is slower than tarring that folder and the moving the tar (but not counting the untar) then disk latency is your bottleneck.
dd is not a magic tool that can deal with block devices while others can't. You can just cp myLinuxInstallDisk.iso to /dev/myUsbDrive, too.
I get 40 Gbit/s over a single localhost TCP stream on my 10 years old laptop with iperf3.
So the TCP does not seem to be a bottleneck if 40 Gbit/s is "high" enough, which it probably is currently for most people.
I have also seen plenty situations in which TCP is faster than UDP in datacenters.
For example, on Hetzner Cloud VMs, iperf3 gets me 7 Gbit/s over TCP but only 1.5 Gbit/s over UDP. On Hetzner dedicated servers with 10 Gbit links, I get 10 Gbit/s over TCP but only 4.5 Gbit/s over UDP. But this could also be due to my use of iperf3 or its implementation.
I also suspect that TCP being a protocol whose state is inspectable by the network equipment between endpoints allows implementing higher performance, but I have not validated if that is done.
There's gotta be a less antisocial way though. I'd say using BBR and increasing the buffer sizes to 64 MiB does the trick in most cases.
As I understand it, this is also the approach of WEKA.io [1]. Another approach is RDMA [2] used by storage systems like Vast which pushes those order and resend tasks to NICs that support RDMA so that applications can read and write directly to the network instead of to system buffers.
0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_and_Secure_Protocol
1. https://docs.weka.io/weka-system-overview/weka-client-and-mo...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_direct_memory_access
For completeness, I want to add:
The 2MiB are per SSH "channel" -- the SSH protocol multiplexes multiple independent transmission channels over TCP [1], and each one has its own window size.
rsync and `cat | ssh | cat` only use a single channel, so if their counterparty is an OpenSSH sshd server, their throughput is limited by the 2MiB window limit.
rclone seems to be able to use multiple ssh channels over a single connection; I believe this is what the `--sftp-concurrency` setting controls.
Some more discussion about the 2MiB limit and links to work for upstreaming a removal of these limits can be found in my post [3].
Looking into it just now, I found that the SSH protocol itself already supports dynamically growing per-channel window sizes with `CHANNEL_WINDOW_ADJUST`, and OpenSSH seems to generally implement that. I don't fully grasp why it doesn't just use that to extend as needed.
I also found that there's an official `no-flow-control` extension with the description
> channel behaves as if all window sizes are infinite. > > This extension is intended for, but not limited to, use by file transfer applications that are only going to use one channel and for which the flow control provided by SSH is an impediment, rather than a feature.
So this looks exactly as designed for rsync. But no software implements this extension!
I wrote those things down in [4].
It is frustrating to me that we're only a ~200 line patch away from "unlimited" instead of shitty SSH transfer speeds -- for >20 years!
[1]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4254#section-5
[2]: https://rclone.org/sftp/#sftp-concurrency
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40856136
[4]: https://github.com/djmdjm/openssh-portable-wip/pull/4#issuec...
Inherent reasons or no, it's been my experience across multiple protocols, applications, network connections and environments, and machines on both ends, that, _in fact_, splitting data up and operating using multiple streams is significantly faster.
So, ok, it might not be because of an "inherent reason", but we still have to deal with it in real life.
Yeah, this has been my experience with low-overhead streams as well.
Interestingly, I see a ubiquity of this "open more streams to send more data" pattern all over the place for file transfer tooling.
Recent ones that come to mind have been BackBlaze's CLI (B2) and taking a peek at Amazon's SDK for S3 uploads with Wireshark. (What do they know that we don't seem to think we know?)
It seems like they're all doing this? Which is maybe odd, because when I analyse what Plex or Netflix is doing, it's not the same? They do what you're suggesting, tune the application + TCP/UDP stack. Though that could be due to their 1-to-1 streaming use case.
There is overhead somewhere and they're trying to get past it via semi-brute-force methods (in my opinion).
I wonder if there is a serialization or loss handling problem that we could be glossing over here?
I used B2 as third leg for our backups and pretty much had to give rclone more connections at once because defaults were nowhere close to saturating bandwidth
cuz in my experience no one is doing that tbh
It’s base line tuning seems to just assume large files and does no auto scaling and it’s mostly single threaded.
Then even when tuning it’s still painfully slow, again seemly limited by its cpu processing and mostly on a single thread, highly annoying.
Especially when you’re running it on a high core, fast storage, large internet connection machine.
Just feels like there is a large amount of untapped potential in the machines…
Source: Been in big tech for roughly ten years now trying to get servers to move packets faster
> MPLS ECMP hashing you over a single path
This is kinda like the traffic shaping I was talking about though, but fair enough. It's not an inherent limitation of a single stream, just a consequence of how your network is designed.
> a single loss event with a high BDP
I thought BBR mitigates this. Even if it doesn't, I'd still count that as a TCP stack issue.
At a large enough scale I'd say you are correct that multiple streams is inherently easier to optimize throughput for. But probably not a single 1-10gb link though.
It is. one stream gets you traffic of one path to the infrastructure. Multiple streams get you multiple and possibly also hit different servers to accelerate it even more. Just the limitation isn't hardware but "our networking device have 4 10Gbit ports instead of single 40Gbit port"
Especially if link is saturated, you'd be essentially taking n-times your "fair share" of bandwidth on link.
If the server side scales (as cloud services do) it might end up using different end points for the parallel connections and saturate the bandwidth better. One server instance might be serving other clients as well and can't fill one particular client's pipe entirely.
Depending on what you're doing it can be faster to leave your files in a solid archive that is less likely to be fragmented and get contiguous reads.
Related to this is the very useful:
rclone serve restic ...
This howto is not rsync.net-specific - you can follow this recipe at any standard SSH endpoint:
https://www.rsync.net/resources/notes/2025-q4-rsync.net_tech...
My goal is to smooth out some of the operational rough edges I've seen companies deal with when using the tool:
- Team workspaces with role-based access control
- Event notifications & webhooks – Alerts on transfer failure or resource changes via Slack, Teams, Discord, etc.
- Centralized log storage
- Vault integrations – Connect 1Password, Doppler, or Infisical for zero-knowledge credential handling (no more plain text files with credentials)
- 10 Gbps connected infrastructure (Pro tier) – High-throughput Linux systems for large transfersThis idea that one must “give back” after receiving a gift freely given is simply silly.
I've adjusted threads and the various other controls rclone offers but I still feel like I'm not see it's true potential because the second it hits a rate limit I can all but guarantee that job will have to be restarted with new settings.
That hasn't been true for more than 8 years now.
Source: https://github.com/rclone/rclone/blob/9abf9d38c0b80094302281...
And the PR adding it: https://github.com/rclone/rclone/pull/2622
From the readme:
- Warp speed Data Transfer (WDT) is an embeddedable library (and command line tool) aiming to transfer data between 2 systems as fast as possible over multiple TCP paths.
- Goal: Lowest possible total transfer time - to be only hardware limited (disc or network bandwidth not latency) and as efficient as possible (low CPU/memory/resources utilization)
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaV-O6NPWrI
I'm currently working on the GUI if you're interested: https://github.com/rclone-ui/rclone-ui
You seem to be referring to the selection of candidates of files to transfer (along several possible criteria like modification time, file size or file contents using checksumming) [2]
Rsync is great. However for huge filesystems (many files and directories) with relatively less change, you'll need to think about "assisting" it somewhat (by feeding it its candidates obtained in a more efficient way, using --files-from=). For example: in a renderfarm system you would have additions of files, not really updates. Keep a list of frames that have finished rendering (in a cinematic film production this could be eg. 10h/frame), and use it to feed rsync. Otherwise you'll be spending hours for rsync to build its index (both sides) over huge filesystems, instead of transferring relatively few big and new files.
In workloads where you have many sync candidates (files) that have a majority of differing chunks, it might be worth rather disabling the delta-transfer algorithm (--whole-file) and saving on the tradeoffs.
[0] https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/course/15-749/READINGS/required/c...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rsync#Determining_which_parts_...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rsync#Determining_which_files_...
Edit: oh I see, delta transfer only sends the changed parts of files?
You can also run multiple instances of rsync, the problem seems how to efficiently divide the set of files.
It turns out, fpart does just that! Fpart is a Filesystem partitioner. It helps you sort file trees and pack them into bags (called "partitions"). It is developed in C and available under the BSD license.
It comes with an rsync wrapper, fpsync. Now I'd like to see a benchmark of that vs rclone! via https://unix.stackexchange.com/q/189878/#688469 via https://stackoverflow.com/q/24058544/#comment93435424_255320...
find a-bunch-of-files | xargs -P 10 do-something-with-a-file
-P max-procs
--max-procs=max-procs
Run up to max-procs processes at a time; the default is 1.
If max-procs is 0, xargs will run as many processes as
possible at a time.Edit: Looks like when doing file-by-file -F{} is still needed:
# find tmp -type f | xargs -0 ls
ls: cannot access 'tmp/b file.md'$'\n''tmp/a file.md'$'\n''tmp/c file.md'$'\n': No such file or directoryxargs -0 will use a null byte as separator for each argument
printf 'a\0b\0c\0' | xargs -tI{} echo “file -> {}"