Top
Best
New

Posted by PaulHoule 1 day ago

Pretty soon, heat pumps will be able to store and distribute heat as needed(www.sintef.no)
98 points | 84 commentspage 2
rekabis 1 day ago|
I would love to see a bus-sized version for year-long temperature moderation. Like, drop house heat into it during the summer so it can re-heat the house over the winter, and pull all the heat out of it by Spring so that it can cool the house over the summer.

Bus sized because that amount of thermal mass is bound to take up a lot of space, but capable of being buried so that it doesn’t actually take up property space.

Xylakant 2 hours ago||
This exists, in german it's called Eisspeicherheizung. You have a few cubic meters of water buried in a concrete bunker and you use a heat pump to pull energy out of the water until it freezes. The system not only uses the thermal mass of the water, but the thawing/freezing energy which is higher than the energy required to heat water by 1degree by a factor of 80 - meaning if you freeze 1kg of water, you need to pull out enough energy to heat one kg of water by 80 degrees.

You can then use a heat pump that's optimized for the expected temperature range and you don't even need to insulate your water storage tank - you actually want the cold in winter to seep out into the surrounding soil, free energy.

In summer you have cold storage for your AC.

fy20 20 hours ago|||
I ran the numbers for this a while ago. I live where we have proper winters (currently -22c). I wanted something simple just with solar thermal and water pumps (no heat pump). Sand batteries work at an industrial level, but for domestic use you want something simple so that means just water.

A 100m3 (100,000 litres or 26,500 gallons) cylindrical water tank (approx 5x5m) buried and insulated with 50cm of XPS could provide around 4000kWh of deliverable heat throughout winter. Which would be more than enough for heating and domestic hot water for my house.

In the summer you'd use solar thermal to charge it to 85c. In the winter you'd run water through underfloor heating and discharge it to 35c (so you just need a mixer valve and pump).

The structural engineering part of it isn't actually that complicated (with a garden on top, not a house). You can buy plastic water tanks of that size, it just needs to be buried and have XPS foam placed around it.

Because it's volume, it scales up well. An extra one meter in each direction would increase the volume by around 60%, but you have a lower overall heat loss, so the heat capacity would more than double.

The important part of it is the XPS foam though, without this the loses are too great and you don't retain any heat. This is why insulating your foundation and slab is so effective.

bilbo-b-baggins 16 hours ago|||
So… store heat in an insulated swimming pool 10ft deep, 30ft wide, and 90ft long, at 185F, above the service temp for XPS foam, got it, ok. At least you could also use it to sous vide an entire cow.
eande 18 hours ago||||
Interesting practical approach to actual build it. Did you do a cost analyses or RoI?
rekabis 5 hours ago|||
Pedantic Pete here:

  • The centigrade is capitalized when used after a number. There is also a singular glyph for the entire degree-centigrade convention: ℃.

  • There are also superscript numerical characters to use with volumes, without having to use formatting: m³.
UTF-8 is fun! As is automatic text replacement, once you have the appropriate triggers set up.
syntaxing 23 hours ago|||
So…geothermal? I wish this was possible too but I don’t see how it will work scientifically. Water is one of the chemicals that have one of the highest thermal mass/specific heat (maybe 1/3 of salt hydrates). Even then, you have to bury a crapton of water underground. This design mentioned in the article is more for short term, like 12 hours storage (since they’re accommodating for solar in nighttime)
Neywiny 23 hours ago|||
Is geothermal not the opposite of that? My understanding was that the geothermal MO is that there's virtually infinite thermal mass in the earth so it won't heat/cool, not that you heat/cool your local chunk
syntaxing 23 hours ago||
To a certain extent, yes. The reason why the water is there is because the thermal flux of the ground is low, so the large mass of water provides a strong buffer. But you can’t cheap physics. You would need a crap ton of salt hydrate to accommodate a whole season of heat needs, even if you don’t factor in thermal loss from the container.
rekabis 6 hours ago|||
Geothermal needs either a horrifically expensive vertical bore hole going down a few hundred metres, or a good acre of land for laid-down piping. I have neither the money nor the horizontal space. So I am thinking something compact that needs to go only about 6-10m vertically into the ground (so I can hide it fully underground with about a metre of soil on top), and take up the horizontal space of 4 parked cars. I have more than enough room and cash to have that cube of space dug out.

And being on an alluvial plain, if I filter out all the rocks larger than a pea, a good 90+% of what is dug out can immediately be trucked away.

aidenn0 1 hour ago|||
I live in a climate where, for most of the year, the daily high-low temperature range includes 20C, so I'd like a whatever sized one is needed to average that out, and run most of the year without any active heating or cooling.
stubish 22 hours ago||
You seem to be describing ground sourced heat pumps. If you wanted, you could insulate a a chunk of foundation or earth to avoid heat loss. But just the ground under your building seems to work well enough.
rekabis 6 hours ago||
Ground sourced heat pumps need either a horrifically expensive vertical bore hole going down a few hundred metres, or a good acre of land for laid-down piping. I have neither the money nor the horizontal space. So I am thinking something compact that needs to go only about 6-10m vertically into the ground (so I can hide it fully underground with about a metre of soil on top), and take up the horizontal space of 4 parked cars. I have more than enough room and cash to have that cube of space dug out.

And being on an alluvial plain, if I filter out all the rocks larger than a pea, a good 90+% of what is dug out can immediately be trucked away.

animal531 11 hours ago||
Where I live we need a way to store and distribute cold as needed.
burnt-resistor 10 hours ago|
Stanford's cogen plant has an underground "ice cube" for campus/municipal chilled water infrastructure. Perhaps scaling something like that makes sense or perhaps to use an absorption heat pump (AHP) that can operate like and the reverse of an Einstein–Szilard refrigerator?
chickenimprint 22 hours ago||
So it's a large version of those rechargeable hand-warmers?
mrexroad 2 hours ago||
IIRC BMW used to have a form of this in their cars about 25-30 years back so that the hvac would be able to blow heat before the engine coolant was up to temp after sitting overnight.
ZeroGravitas 14 hours ago||
Yes, it's the same tech. There's been products on the market for a while even though this press release tries to spin it like it's new and linked to heat pumps.
burnt-resistor 10 hours ago||
Private equity / Wall St. megacorps want to sell you complex systems that are fragile, unaffordable by the 99%, have short warranty periods, wear out quickly, require cloud logins and proprietary maintenance parts, and are mandated by law.

GFL buying a simple resistive-heated clothes dryer, furnace, or tanked/tankless water heater in 2030.

metalman 12 hours ago||
the idea is theoreticaly good, but as it depends on sealing incompatable materials apart, there will be problems, and issues with disposing of failed units.Dry sand works as thermal storage without any issues, and only needs more space, competition will be stiff.Water also works, and ordinary off the floor systems can be used with no modifications. The only advantage the system will have is in places where space constraints combine with the desire for fancy solutions and ecobabble.
RiceNBananas 21 hours ago|
[flagged]