Posted by rafaelcosta 5 days ago
They noticed a discrepancy, then went back and wrote code to perform the same operations by hand, without the use of an LLM at all in the code production step. The results still diverged unpredictably from the baseline.
Normally, expecting floating-point MAC operations to produce deterministic results on modern hardware is a fool's errand; they usually operate asynchronously and so the non-commutative properties of floating-point addition rear their head and you get some divergence.
But an order of magnitude difference plus Apple's own LLM not working on this device suggests strongly to me that there is something wrong. Whether it's the silicon or the software would demand more investigation, but this is a well reasoned bug in my book.
https://ia800806.us.archive.org/20/items/TheFeelingOfPower/T...
I should think I'll probably see someone posting this on the front page of HN tomorrow, no doubt. I first read it when it was already enormously old, possibly nearly 30 years old, in the mid 1980s when I was about 11 or 12 and starting high school, and voraciously reading all the Golden Age Sci-Fi I could lay my grubby wee hands on. I still think about it, often.
(The idea being, a paragraph usually introduces a new thought.)
Whether you should do this on device is another story entirely.
What's to be gained, other than battery life, by offloading inference to someone else? To be lost, at least, is your data ownership and perhaps money.
Access to models that local hardware can't run. The kind of model that an iphone struggles to run is blown out of the water by most low end hosted models. Its the same reason that most devs opt for claude code, cursor, copilot, etc. instead of using hosted models for coding assistance.
If I read most of the news on this very website, this is "way more efficient" and "it saves time" (and those who don’t do it will lose their job)
Then, when it produces wrong output AND it is obvious enough for you to notice, you blame the hardware.
It’s no different than someone testing a calculator with 2+2. If it gets that wrong, there’s a hardware issue. That doesn’t mean the only purpose of the calculator is to calculate 2+2. It is for debugging.
You could just as uncharitably complain that “these days no one does arithmetic anymore, they use a calculator for 2+2”.
The LLM that malfunctioned was there to slap categories on things. And something was going wrong in either the hardware or the compiler.
I don't get the snark about LLMs overall in this context; this author uses LLM to help write their code, but is also clearly competent enough to dig in and determine why things don't work when the LLM fails, and performed an LLM-out-of-the-loop debugging session once they decided it wasn't trustworthy. What else could you do in this situation?
You are claiming that if the price of the iPhone went down, apple would sell fewer phones?
Correspondingly, you are arguing that if they increased prices they could increase sales?
You are claiming that 100s of millions of people have all made the decision that the price of an iPhone is more than it is worth to them as a device, but is made up for by being seen with one in your hand?
Not all goods that signify status are Veblen goods.
Veblen goods aren't like this. If they were, everything would be priced at infinity. Veblen goods have to take into account the amount of spending money their target customers have, and how much they're willing to spend. Apple products are priced this way. They're not targeted just at people who can afford Rolls-Royce Silver Shadows, they're targeted at regular people who are willing to spend too much money on a phone when they can get an equivalent Android phone for half the price. Those people have limited money, but they're willing to overpay, but only so much.
>You are claiming that if the price of the iPhone went down, apple would sell fewer phones?
Quite likely, yes. If they adopted razor-thin profit margins on iPhones, their phones would be seen as "cheap" and wouldn't have the cachet they have now. More people would start looking at alternatives, and start buying Samsung Galaxies and other flagship Android phones.
Increasing demand with increasing prices is the very definition of a Veblen good. I never said anything like pricing them at infinity (an exceptionally stupid way of saying that something is not for sale).
I simply pointed out that there isn’t really any reason to believe that a mass produced easily available phone that holds a massive percentage of the entire global cell phone market would see increased demand from increased prices. It is an extraordinary claim with nothing resembling evidence. The most damning evidence is that the most expensive iPhone, the Pro Max, is outsold 2:1 by the base model for the last three generations, despite being visually distinguishable. (The 17 saw initial sales of Pro Maxes higher than base, but that appears to have corrected. Easily understandable that early adopters are more willing to pay for the best version of new tech)
There is an argument to be made that the Pro Max flirts with Veblen for small parts of the market, or that certain submarkets in poorer countries treat the iPhone that way, but that all looks more like conspicuous consumption. I still don’t believe that Pro Max sales increase if the price increases. A few individuals or submarket will not have the ability to invert a demand curve for an Apple device.
Again, I think that you are confusing conspicuous consumption with a Veblen good. This sentence is the giveaway:
> Those people have limited money, but they're willing to overpay, but only so much.
What you are describing is a normal demand curve. As price rises fewer people are willing to pay. People being unable to pay for something they still want does not make something a Veblen good (that would make insulin a Veblen good). You are describing a steep demand curve, not a reversed one.
Just because you perceive that an equivalent android can be purchased for half the price does not mean that everyone uses your criteria. I tried switching to a lower priced android made by google. In no way was it equivalent for my purposes. and I still wouldn’t want it. I am happy to pay the price, not because I care about being seen with an iPhone, but because it is the tool that I have determined to best suit my purposes. Many people refuse to believe this, but many people like the Apple ecosystem.
I don't think its unusual that a country with high median income and higher average income will tend to gravitate towards more expensive phones. Given that Apple doesn't make a cheap phone, it kind of follows that wealthier countries will buy more iPhones.
Of course the opposite is true as well, In a country where an iPhone is measured in months of salary, they won't sell well, but I'd be willing to bet that Androids in that price tier sell like shit in those countries too.
Is it a status symbol? arguably. But it also correlates pretty strongly with median income.
Function > Form.
I think its a Hero Complex, if Jung is correct.
Safari has supported real web extensions for at least 2 or three years on iOS.
Or you know you could pay for an ad free experience
There is no way a company could exist purely on marketing, Apple backs it up with tech.
But I agree Apple doesn't even though they've gone into a direction I couldn't follow them in.
They did this with the always-on screens for phones. My LGs had this many, many years ago. It was so bad that when Apple finally brought it out and acted like they had invented it, coworkers saw my LG and asked if I had gotten the latest iPhone, and I had to point out that it was a 5-year-old LG.
And then there's other stuff that Apple has which is just plain bad, but they present as new and wonderful, such as the "island" keyboard.
To wit, some people do value form over function. Some people do prefer a safe, curated walled garden.
I am not among them--I say this as someone who cannot stand using most Apple products for more than a minute. But I respect what they offer(ed) and for some people even recommended them. (Now I'm less sure because it seems like everything tech has gone to shit, but I can't tell if that's just "old man yells at cloud" or what)
Ideally there would be enough competition for us all to find what we're looking for. I think anticompetitive behavior is a worse sin
Not everyone cares for the most capable device on the planet. Sometimes people just want a pretty familiar and easy experience. I haven’t used my phone for anything more than browsing the web and texting in ages. I absolutely don’t care about whatever function you think I’m missing due to Apple, honestly.
As a side note, the fathers of Psychology were absolutely terrible scientists. The entire field almost failed because they took it so far into pseudo-science land. Of course Jung isn’t correct.
Just the other day I was reminded of the poor little "I am rich" iOS app (a thousand dollar ruby icon that performed diddly squat by design), which Apple deep-sixed from the app store PDQ.
If misery loves company, Veblen goods sure don't.