Posted by MallocVoidstar 4 days ago
MIT licensed binary in a source code repo does not make any sense.
This is a huge red flag.
From the license page on their repo (https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/blob/master/LICENSE...):
> 1. You are licensed to use compiled versions of the Mattermost platform produced by Mattermost, Inc. under an MIT LICENSE
So just the compiled versions, not the source code. Ok, at least that is clear. But - the MIT license explictly allows for modification and redistribution. So can I do that?
The next line.
> See MIT-COMPILED-LICENSE.md included in compiled versions for details
Except this file doesn't exist anywhere in the repo or outside.
> You may be licensed to use source code to create compiled versions not produced by Mattermost, Inc. in one of two ways:
> 1. Under the Free Software Foundation’s GNU AGPL v3.0, subject to the exceptions outlined in this policy; or > 2. Under a commercial license available from Mattermost, Inc. by contacting commercial@mattermost.com
What does "may be licensed" mean? Do I have to contact them for a license? Or is an AGPL license implied?
> You are licensed to use the source code in Admin Tools and Configuration Files (server/templates/, server/i18n/, server/public/, webapp/ and all subdirectories thereof) under the Apache License v2.0.
Sure, let's throw another license in there, because there weren't enough already.
> We promise that we will not enforce the copyleft provisions in AGPL v3.0 against you if your application ... [set of conditions]
WTF does a "promise" mean here? Is this actually AGPL or not?
Then they have copy pasted the entire Apache License, even though the project isn't licensed under Apache. Why??
Oh but that's not all.
There's a separate license page at https://docs.mattermost.com/product-overview/faq-license.htm..., which says:
> Mattermost Team Edition (Open Source) - Open Source MIT License.
Uh, what? That goes against everything said in LICENSE.txt. So now we are back to fully open source?
> All other non-permissive additional terms are considered "further restrictions" within the meaning of section 10. If the Program as you received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is governed by this License along with a term that is a further restriction, you may remove that term. If a license document contains a further restriction but permits relicensing or conveying
So, my interpretation is that I am free to license it under the AGPL; there is no "well, we might decide to do that", and I can strip all conditions they place upon me and comply only with the AGPL, and legally there is nothing they can do about it.
> > We promise that we will not enforce the copyleft provisions in AGPL v3.0 against you if your application ... [set of conditions]
Given their goals seem to be
- Permissive use without modification, even in combined works ("MIT binaries"); but
- Copyleft with modification, including for the Affero "network hole", or commercial terms
could you suggest a clearer license option? AGPL triggers copyleft across combined works, LGPL doesn't cover the network hole, GPL has both problems. Their goals seem really reasonable, honestly, there should be a simple answer. It seems messy but I like it more than the SSPL/BSL/other neo-licenses.
It is AGPL 3.0, except they give you slightly more rights with a promise not to enforce certain provisions in certain circumstances.
The concept of MIT licensing a compiled software artifact, but not the code used to generate the artifact, is also extremely strange.
You don't need to note the commercial licensing option in the license itself; it's irrelevant to that grant. You just state that elsewhere.
(EDIT: though, having read the whole document, it seems like there is just a trademark carve-out, which is explicitly allowed under the AGPL, so this seems reasonably straightforward, except for the strange 'we promise not to enforce copyleft if you don't modify the code' which seems entirely redundant. Oh, and the 'licensed to use source code to create compiled version' which seems like a very strange phrasing)
https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/blob/master/LICENSE...
----
You are licensed to use compiled versions of the Mattermost platform produced by Mattermost, Inc. under an MIT LICENSE
- See MIT-COMPILED-LICENSE.md included in compiled versions for details
You may be licensed to use source code to create compiled versions not produced by Mattermost, Inc. in one of two ways:
1. Under the Free Software Foundation’s GNU AGPL v3.0, subject to the exceptions outlined in this policy; or
2. Under a commercial license available from Mattermost, Inc. by contacting commercial@mattermost.comhttps://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/blob/master/LICENSE...
I'm not sure that they actually granted a GPL license at all though. I could see this document being read as an advertisement that one might be for sale instead of a grant...
(Not a lawyer)
> ... licensed to use source code to create compiled versions ...
Why's it calling out compiling specifically? Are they trying to imply you can't modify/distribute/etc the source? Presumably that would be a "further restriction" per the AGPL and hence ignorable, but it's sloppy at best and misleading at worse, which isn't great for a license document...
A work is protected by copyright the moment it's authored, and all rights are reserved unless it's explicitly licensed otherwise.
The reality is licenses are all nonsense and none of it makes any sense. There could be secret patents nobody knows about. That precise wording written by American lawyers might not hold up in Chinese courts. There might be two compatible licenses, but one is 20x the length of the other; obviously some legal expert thought those extra words were needed - but are they? What's going on with linking and derivative works? Do you need to copy-and-paste the full legal blurb into every single file, or not? Why are some sections written in all caps, and does the reason for doing that apply globally? What if someone claimed to have the right to contribute code to an open project but actually had an employment contract meaning the code wasn't theirs to transfer? What's the copyright status of three-line stackoverflow answers?
The truth is nobody knows, and nobody cares. You and I won't get sued, probably, and if we do it's not like we'd have avoided it by reading the license. Might as well ignore it, like people ignore website terms of use and software click-through licenses and other legal mumbo-jumbo.
On the other hand, if you're the kind of gigantic enterprise that has policies on software licenses and a team of in-house lawyers and you can't use this software without greater license clarity? Well, you can get that licensing clarity with the enterprise version of the software.
But I don't think I'll ever buy an enterprise version of the software which can't get the simple matter of open source licensing right. It isn't that hard. Thousands of developers are doing it.
If the tool was totally enterprise version only, I'd probably have less qualms about it. But to advertise a tool as open source license but then violate the open source licensing method both in spirit and the letter of the law is just too unprofessional for me that I'd steer clear of them in future and discourage anyone I know from spending their money on them.
That’s pretty clear to me (a native speaker from the UK) - i can’t really see how else it could be interpreted. As another poster said, it’s the same “may” as “you may go to the washroom” or “you may enter now” - which implies consent from the speaker.
No "you may enter now" but "you may be allowed to enter."
Do you really want to bet your business on that? Vizio thought the same when using GPL code, and now they are in court. Software Freedom Conservancy sues Vizio for GPL violations - https://www.zdnet.com/article/software-freedom-conservancy-s...
Open source is notorious for being implemented in $$$ COTS and commerce and then contributing $0 in money and then even less in contribs bug fixes or sharing in house tweaks,isn’t this what Wordpress has been melting down over for a year or two now?
And I’m sure many more projects are pissed off or resenting their chains but not making an ugly scene about it.
Something has to give here.
I don’t have a dog in this fight other than to say that what mattermost went with here “is a choice” , and I have “a choice” whether to accept these terms.
I’m interested in watching how it plays out though. They cast their die. Problems have solutions. We could all get into whether this solution is viable or not — doesn’t matter this is what they went with and they made it clear they’re not taking user input on it. I’m not even a user so I expect them to care even less about my thoughts.
Im supportive of anyone trying to find an equitable balance but maybe that’s a situation where they could roll their own license with these clauses and exclusions.
Its not like Microsoft or iTunes user agreements aren’t complete bullshit, yet people click okay and use all that.