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Posted by ahamez 1 day ago

Company as Code(blog.42futures.com)
261 points | 127 comments
staticshock 1 day ago|
The main problem here is that real people operate in fuzzy domains. Snapping them into place "with code" won't magically resolve the gray areas inherent to the most valuable real workflows.

Think about the prized "high agency worker." What makes them desirable is the willingness and ability to make well informed, unilateral decisions on matters that are likely not yet organizationally codified, or codified in a way that is "wrong" for the task at hand.

Also, the reason terraform works is because it is _operational_. As in, it's actual code that runs. If it was mere documentation, it would drift like nobody's business. In order to make "organizational code" operational, you would need enforcement (a compliance team?) manually keeping the documentation in sync with reality in all of the meat and thought spaces where real work happens.

The only place where this can plausibly be automated is in digital spaces. In fact, I'm surprised the article doesn't go there: "organizational code" starts feeling way more plausible as definition for AI agents than for real people, specifically because agents are operationalized in digital spaces, where enforcement can be automated.

Qerub 1 day ago||
Speaking about high agency workers, this Company as Code framework reminds me a lot of SaaSiroth introduced in https://youtu.be/dLTUqPue9sQ?si=OIxmP5_D-YZZD2UO&t=200 (KRAZAM: High Agency Individual Contributor).
NuclearPM 1 day ago||
The most productive workers follow the intent of procedures and use a risk based approach to following or not following the details.
stego-tech 1 day ago||
This is not a new or novel idea. I proposed such a thing at the start of my career in tech, and repeatedly propose it when I feel I have ears willing to listen.

The problem - and I do mean the problem, the only problem - is the threat this poses to power dynamics in the organization.

Compliance people do not benefit from their outputs being readily searchable and indexed like this, because it means there’s less need for them. Executives and leaders do not benefit from this, because they’re increasingly hired specifically because of their knowledge of various compliance frameworks. The people whose power derives from this knowledge and expertise are overwhelmingly the people in charge of the company and its operations, and they benefit more from blocking it outright than implementing it.

Don’t get me wrong, I love this idea. I love transparency in organizations, because it makes it infinitely easier to identify and remediate problems beyond silo walls. It’s peak cooperation, and I am all for it.

I also do not see it happening at scale while competition is considered the default operating mode of society at large. That said, I would love to work for an organization placing importance on this degree of internal cooperation. I suspect I’d thrive there.

majormajor 1 day ago||
What prevents people from not doing what the policy says? Since neither "paper doc" policy nor "code policy" actually constrains humans from trying to exploit or work around the system, oversight and compliance still seem like messy human functions. Does this just become "more structured compliance documentation"? Which sounds nice, but not dramatically different.

And on the creation side, what prevents political fights over what goes into the "code policy" of exactly the same sort that lead to compromises or oddities in paper policies?

observationist 1 day ago|||
It constrains power and makes decisions auditable and holds those with power accountable to guidelines. Management doesn't like this paradigm for the very same reasons big tech platforms make conduct and moderation guidelines vague and nonspecific. It frees them up to remove, penalize, fire, and otherwise exert power for reasons they can't explicitly justify.

It's exactly the same paradigm the EU and countries around the world are avoiding - denying due process in things like freedom of press and expression, because they feel it allows them flexibility in suppressing and "managing" speech, people, and groups they deem problematic.

Having an explicit rule of law constrains the exercise of power. Those looking to wield power will never like that.

jt2190 1 day ago|||
> I also do not see it happening at scale while competition is considered the default operating mode of society at large.

You don’t even need competition between people and orgs, just between solutions that work more-or-less equally but come with different second-order tradeoffs. Consider two approaches that solve a company’s problem equally but create different amounts of work for different people in the organization. Which solution to choose? Who gets to decide, based on what criteria? As soon as even a little scale creeps in this is inescapable.

NetOpWibby 1 day ago|||
> That said, I would love to work for an organization placing importance on this degree of internal cooperation. I suspect I’d thrive there.

I've been looking for such a org my entire career but recently resigned myself[1] to the fact it'll probably not happen unless I come into a situation when I can create it myself.

---

[1] <https://blog.webb.page/WM-081>

cootsnuck 1 day ago||
When/If you do want to create one yourself, there are a handful of tech cooperatives out there for inspiration: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops
fduran 1 day ago|||
> This is not a new or novel idea

Yep https://x.com/fduran/status/1134283398594387969

agumonkey 1 day ago|||
Any books about workgroup power dynamics ? i'm fascinated (morbidly in a way) by that
willhslade 1 day ago|||
Harvard Business Review's Office Politics. Or any intro Industrial Psychology textbook.
kukkeliskuu 1 day ago|||
Keith Johnstone: Impro
whattheheckheck 1 day ago||
Is it ISBN-13: 978-0878301171?

Or ASIN B01K2J06SY

kukkeliskuu 1 day ago||
The first one is the classic. Don't know about the second one.

Power dynamics have been extensively investigated by the "Johnstone school" of improv, because humans are (mostly preconsciously i.e. usually are not but can become conscious about it) interested in power dynamics -- especially in situations where power balance is switching -- so this is the key if you want improvise acts that feel realistic and capture the audience attention.

To really understand it, I would recommend taking some improv classes that are based on Johnstone's teachings. But the book will give you the idea.

agumonkey 15 hours ago||
I tried digging around keith johnstone but i could only find theatrical improv which, unless it flies above my head, had very few to do with the workplace dynamics of real jobs. Unless the concept is to insist on the fact that adult life is just a play and treat your day like a space of randomness to disrupt the established roles ?
redanddead 1 day ago|||
"Compliance" as we know it today is going away
chickensong 14 hours ago||
Care to elaborate?
9rx 1 day ago||
> The problem - and I do mean the problem, the only problem - is the threat this poses to power dynamics in the organization.

And expertise, to be fair. Documentation as code is what we in the software industry call testing/type systems. The vast majority of developers cannot even write a good test for their code (if they are willing to even try at all), let alone their eyes completely glazing over if you ask them to write, like, an Rocq proof. And that's people who live and die by code, not business people who are layers removed from the activity.

estsauver 1 day ago||
I think the closest that this has come is in the form of GitLab, which pretty famously did a ton of the corporate work in the format of a very open Handbook (https://handbook.gitlab.com/)

In the early years, it was extremely, extremely open and comprehensive. I've definitely looked through it when I wasn't sure how to handle something at work.

vidarh 1 day ago||
And that site is available as a git repository - on Gitlab of course:

https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/content-sites/handbook

monkeydust 1 day ago||
That's pretty cool. Wonder if it is deployed and updated religiously still. If they wanted to deploy an 'Agent' worker that source is goldmine for context.
vidarh 1 day ago||
I don't know about "religiously" but as of right now it was last updated 16 minutes ago:

https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/content-sites/handbook

maebert 1 day ago||
I love the vision, but it glosses over the most important difference between Infrastructure and Companies.

Infrastructure as code is prescriptive. The code is the source of truth, and the world gets crested from it.

Company as code is descriptive. It is constantly catching up to meat-space, rather than creating it. Changes are gradual instead of instant roll-outs. Patterns change over time and only get documented later.

Making the company code prescriptive would require an insane amount of discipline that might be more stifling and restrictive than it is freeing.

staticshock 1 day ago|
Nailed it. I think about prescriptivism / descriptivism in terms of these archetypes:

- "Rule followers" think an org will be better off if everyone agreed on a set of rules to follow. At the boundaries, they will think about establishing new rules to clarify and codify new things. Charitably, I'd add that they might remove rules that are obsolete, but we all know this is not sufficiently true in practice: governments, for example, are much more likely to add new rules than to remove old ones.

- "Rule breakers" think that most rules are suggestions. At the boundaries, they will see rules other people are needlessly bound by, and translate those into strategic openings for whatever game they're playing. For better and for worse, start-up ecosystems are full of people like this.

Rule followers want to be told what's allowed, while rule breakers try to figure out what _should_ be allowed from first principles. At the extreme, they tug the world towards authoritarianism or towards anarchy.

This is obviously a spectrum, so everyone has both of these archetypes in them, albeit in different proportions (e.g. most people pay taxes, but almost no one drives the speed limit).

zjaffee 1 day ago||
Isn't this essentially just trying to reinvent ERP (i.e. what SAP has built a 207 billion dollar company at time of writing on and 90% of fortune 500 companies along with endless other large organizations use).

One can argue that ERP as code is higher value than whatever it is right now, but to act like this is a totally new idea is insane.

dmd 1 day ago|
I worked in a place where basically everything that happened in the company was implemented as actions within Lotus Notes.

While the choice of implementation and performance were abysmal (Notes was a great/the only choice when the decision was made but 25 years later not so much), the actual idea was amazing and it worked extremely well.

bonsai_spool 1 day ago||
> the actual idea was amazing and it worked extremely well.

What do you think are the reasons it worked so well? Any anecdotes of why it was so effective?

squeefers 1 day ago||
I suspect hes designed a system for HIS company, which is in a data heavy industry. this doesnt apply to most other types of company, and I suspect when he tries to actually do it, it falls apart when he tries to define any requirement or obligation that stems from legislation. If the law was a coherent and unambiguous specification, thered be no problem, but the reality of it is messy and not so easily defined.
jbs789 1 day ago|
Made me laugh bc you’re right - there are a whole host of decisions that are better left undocumented and ambiguous.
arnvald 1 day ago||
It's all cool as long as you keep all of this up to date, and that requires a lot of scrutiny and discipline.

Once I had to go through a security audit at a job I had. Part of it was to show managing secret keys and who had access to them. And then I realized that the list of people who had access to one key was different than the list of the code owners of the service I was looking at, which was yet different than the list of the administrators of that service. 3 different sources of truth about ownership, all in code, all out of sync.

chrisjj 1 day ago||
> 3 different sources of truth about ownership

I see only 1.

Admin, access <> ownership.

d4mi3n 1 day ago||
I always thought of this as authority, accountability, and responsibility of a thing. Ideally one group or person has all three. In practice you’ll have many entities with some combination of the three.
chrisjj 1 day ago||
I am sure mere access does not imply any kind of ownership.
Philip-J-Fry 1 day ago||
Isn't the point that this is the source of truth?

If someone needs access to a secret, you would implement it in this DSL and commit that to the system. A side effect would run on that which would grant access to that secret. When you want to revoke access, you commit a change removing that permission and the side effect runs to revoke it.

notpushkin 1 day ago||
From my experience, there is always a parallel process. But if you make the system painless enough, most of it will be in there, yeah.

> When you want to revoke access, you commit a change removing that permission and the side effect runs to revoke it.

For this to work, you’d need to also rotate the secret, or ideally issue one for each person (so that others don’t have to update their configs).

...but sometimes you can’t reliably automatically rotate the secret, because they could have used it for something in production.

hkhanna 1 day ago||
I do this, more or less, for my small law firm. Employee and client information are stored in Recfiles and accessed with GNU Recutils. Adding or changing is a pull request, and all sorts of GitHub actions run. Works pretty well!
treetalker 1 day ago||
+1 would love to see a video or read an extended write-up of how you implemented and work with your system on a daily basis, and what exactly it does for you
squeefers 1 day ago|||
beyond the source controlled database, is it doing the same as what the article describes? ie enforces requirements etc
CountVonGuetzli 1 day ago||
Wat, how have I never heard of this! Very cool. Do you have any insights you could share on your own setup, what worked well and what didn't? Are you just storing information in plaintext, or do you use some visualization libraries to make consuming the information a bit easier as well? Very curious about your setup.
conception 1 day ago||
This is not a bad idea but this person basically reinvented LDAP. Everything he wanted to do is already in LDAP, much already in Active Directory.
tekno45 1 day ago||
They started with their schema and everything they said just screamed Active Directory.

Right down to the low code interface for changes.

ActionHank 1 day ago||
All they need to do now is slap AI on it and they'll have bags of cash delivered to their door.
conception 1 day ago||
LAIDBACK - Lightweight AI Directory Barely Actually Checking Krendentialz?
greatgib 1 day ago|
I think that it is a narrow view of a "developer" that imagine reinventing what basically already exist in decade with HR/"people management" management software that are widely distributed. It is sometimes also done by big ERP and basically available in any big directory and access management platform like Microsoft Entra ID (or whatever is the last current name) and co...

In some big companies, for expenses or performance reviews you have a terrible stack of relationship info and logic involved.

We could even say somehow that the first big entreprise software were creating with that kind of purpose for the modern IT area.

The worst limitation to all of this is users being lazy to input all the info that might be required, or updating it. For example, how many of you never filled their "address" in their record in the big company internal directory portal because it looks useless and is not mandatory?

notpushkin 1 day ago|
I’d love to reinvent an HRIS one day. Most examples I’ve seen are kinda painful to use.
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