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Posted by erickhill 22 hours ago

Resizing windows on macOS Tahoe – the saga continues(noheger.at)
830 points | 469 comments
olivierestsage 9 hours ago|
It really has gotten to the point where Linux offers the best option for a sane desktop experience. Watching Windows and macOS implode while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better has really been something. Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.
staticassertion 3 hours ago||
I've been using a Mac basically full time for years now, due to work. It's easily the worst UX and it's sort of shocking, after decades of hearing "it just works" or whatever. Hidden windows, hidden desktops, obscure keyboard shortcuts, etc.

I actually don't even know how to use the mac for the most part, I've learned to live in the terminal. I contrast this with Linux where I can just... idk, browse files? Where windows don't suddenly "escape" into some other, hidden environment, where I can just use a computer in a very sane way, and if I want keyboard shortcuts they largely align with expectations.

I was extremely frustrated while on a call using a mac. I made the video call full screen, which then placed it onto essentially a "virtual monitor" (ie: completely hidden). I had no way to alt tab back to it, for whatever reason, and I had no way to actually recover the window in any of the usualy "window switching" means. I knew there was a totally undiscoverable gesture to see those things but I was docked so didn't have access to the trackpad.

I figured out if you go to the hidden dock at the bottom and select Chrome, as I recall, you can then get swapped back over to that virtual desktop, "un full screen" the window, and it returns to sanity.

Mac UX seems to go against literally every single guideline I can imagine. Invisible corners, heavily reliant on gestures, asymmetric user experiences (ie: I can press a button to trigger something, but there isn't a way to 'un trigger' it using the same sequence/ reverse sequence/ 'shift' sequence), ridiculous failure modes, etc.

I can't believe that people live like this. I think they don't know how bad they've got it, I routinely see mac users avoiding the use of 'full screen', something that I myself have had to learn to avoid on a mac, despite decades of having never given it a second thought.

bfbf 1 hour ago|||
MacOS definitely has its issues but this just makes it sound like you have different expectations of how an OS should work. Different isn’t always bad. Hiding applications is a pretty key concept in MacOS. Shortcuts are pretty straightforward? Cmd+H to hide, Cmd+Q to quit. Spaces aren’t hidden- there’s lots of ways to access them, but it seems you haven’t bothered to learn them. In your example pressing ctrl+right would have switched the first full screen space. You could also have right clicked the Chrome icon in the dock for a list of windows.

BTW the dock doesn’t have to be hidden, and idk if it was a typo but alt+tab isn’t a default shortcut. Command is the key used for system shortcuts, so maybe you should have tried that? Like yeah it’s different but that doesn’t make it bad. If you been using it for 10 years without figuring that out…

—-

I’m with you on the 1st party apps though, and the stupid corners on Tahoe.

staticassertion 1 hour ago||
I call it "alt tab" because that's how my brain maps the keyboard. The reality is simple - I struggled going from Windows to Ubuntu about 20 years ago but ultimately made it to the other side knowing how to use both well. With macs, I didn't. 10 years later and all of my adaptations are to avoid the operating system. In 10 years the main thing I've learned is how to get myself out of a jam and stick to the parts of the OS that don't feel like shit. I mean, it's not like I haven't learned these things, I know how to gesture, I know how to exit full screen, etc, it's not like I didn't ever learn, I'm explaining that the experience was dog shit.

Anyone is free to claim that I just didn't try, or didn't give it a fair shake, or perhaps I'm just some idiot who doesn't know computers or whatever.

Maybe I just think an OS should work differently, but okay? I've never said that I have some sort of access to a platonic ideal of objective operating systems and that macs don't meet it. I'm saying that I think it's bad and I gave examples of why. And I think I can easily appeal to my experiences seeing others use the OS - I don't think they find anything you're talking about appealing either.

bsimpson 1 hour ago||||
Years ago, they changed the behavior of the green button to be "fullscreen into a separate space." As someone who never uses spaces, this is never what I want.

You can escape it by moving your cursor to the top edge of the screen and clicking the green button on the titlebar that appears to exit fullscreen.

staticassertion 1 hour ago||
In this case, because I had docked my laptop, the entire window moved to a virtual desktop that didn't actually map to a real desktop. Meaning that the video call continued in a virtual desktop that I literally could not see, that I could not mouse over. I don't know if that's just a multiple-monitor bug or whatever but the behavior is stupid even without that failure mode.
bsimpson 1 hour ago||
Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device. You can three-finger-swipe between spaces. I know there's a keyboard equivalent, but you'd have to look it up.
mrighele 16 minutes ago|||
It used to be that Macs would use single button mouses because the user would otherwise need to know which one to click, but now we have to know how many fingers to use and in which direction to swipe, so much for discoverable
staticassertion 1 hour ago|||
> Apple presumes you have a multitouch pointing device.

I think that's really bad design. Is that even controversial?

moondance 24 minutes ago|||
It’s certainly “bad design” if we’re designing specifically with the OS convert who has a grudge against trackpads as the target user. But multitouch and its functionalities has been a fundamental part of macOS for nearly two decades now. For better or worse, a traditional mouse makes about as much sense for a macOS environment as it does for an iPad at this point. It’s workable, and it has certain advantages, but it’s really not recommended as your only pointer. At best, it’s used in tandem with a trackpad.
Aloisius 49 minutes ago|||
If you don't have a multi-touch pointing device, I suppose. Though, it's like trying to use Windows with a single mouse button.

You can also hit ctrl-left or ctrl-right to move spaces without one or ctrl-1, ctrl-2, ctrl-3, etc. to switch to a specific virtual desktop directly.

You can also hit ctrl+ scroll wheel if you have one. Or add mission control hot corner to one of the screen corners.

hbn 2 hours ago||||
You're making multiple desktops sound very confusing when it's really not. Every desktop OS has them and macOS' implementation is quite good. You want bad virtual desktops, try Windows.

Maybe you're better suited for an iPad.

staticassertion 2 hours ago||
I've used multiple desktops before. I love virtual desktops. They really shouldn't be confusing. It's a testament to the bad UX of macs that they are.

The fact that a full screen window creates a whole new virtual desktop is hilarious and I dare you to justify it.

Appeals to "Windows is bad" or whatever mean nothing to me. Stupid comments like "get good" mean nothing to me.

hbn 1 hour ago|||
It sounds like you don't actually want the app in fullscreen. Fullscreen is "I only want to be in this one app window with no distractions." I pretty much only use it for watching videos.

If you want the window taking up the entire screen while staying on the desktop, double click the window chrome and it'll expand to fill the screen. And if you want the dock not taking up space, there's a setting to auto hide the dock (which I always enable)

staticassertion 1 hour ago||
> It sounds like you don't actually want the app in fullscreen. Fullscreen is "I only want to be in this one app window with no distractions." I pretty much only use it for watching videos.

I do want that. Every other OS has no issue with what I'm describing. Who said I don't want distractions? I want the video content to be expanded as widely as possible, that is what "full screen" means. Who said "full screen" means a separate desktop?

Ridiculous tbh

> And if you want the dock not taking up space, there's a setting to auto hide the dock (which I always enable)

Yes, me too.

idle_zealot 1 hour ago|||
> The fact that a full screen window creates a whole new virtual desktop is hilarious and I dare you to justify it.

I can kind of see the idea here. The alternative is that all the other windows in the working desktop get hidden behind the fullscreen window. That's pretty bad UX. I personally avoid it on Linux by always moving a window to its own desktop before fullscreening it.

That said, the implementation is awful, and exposes the rotten foundations of Mac's window management paradigm.

IMO floating windows always fall apart and should be reserved for modals and transient dialog boxes only. Everything gets a lot easier to understand when applications can't occlude one another or occupy the same space.

staticassertion 1 hour ago||
> The alternative is that all the other windows in the working desktop get hidden behind the fullscreen window. That's pretty bad UX.

How? It means I could have a full screen video and then overlay something smaller over it, or maintain my alt-tab behavior as it plays in the background, etc. I'd maintain the same UX. Why would full screen have such a weird behavior?

idle_zealot 1 hour ago|||
You're right that it's more consistent to have windows behave as you describe, and Windows and Linux both treat fullscreen windows this way. I posit that Apple cares more about not hiding windows behind others than it does consistency. This also shows with their new window placement algorithm that results in an absolute mess of windows all partially occluded but with some corner or edge peeking out of the stack for a user to visually identify and click to focus/being-to-top. Compare to Windows that (at least when I last used it) opens new windows at a slight diagonal offset from the last focused window, almost like building a neat deck of cards. Apple's ethos is also on display in the design of Stage Manager, which groups windows into these messy clumps and creates a visible shelf to swap between window bundles. Everything is optimized for hunt-and-peck visual users. If you're the type to organize your windows and workflows then you're fighting the system.
bfbf 1 hour ago|||
If you click the full screen window, your little window is now behind it…
dsego 2 hours ago||||
> I figured out

Or you could maybe learn how to use the OS, in linux lingo RTFM. I don't want to be rude, but the critique was very flippant, the arguments vague, all about expectations based on years using a different OS, doesn't seem you want to give it a fair chance.

staticassertion 2 hours ago||
This is pretty funny.

> the arguments vague

I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed. I referenced principles of UX as well as literal "here is what my experience was in a concrete story".

> , all about expectations based on years using a different OS

No? I mean, again, funny. I explained how I've been using MacOS for years. Actually a decade, now that I count it out.

> doesn't seem you want to give it a fair chance.

a decade lol

dsego 1 hour ago||
Plenty of people use an OS for years without learning. And you admitted to spending time in the terminal, which indicates lack of will to try and learn macos shortcuts, gestures, windowing model, spaces, and so on. And the comment used sweeping generalizations, without referring to any specific principles broken which aren't just personal dislikes or unfamiliarity with a different way of doing things.

> I gave both generalized and highly specific cases where I felt the UX failed.

No guidelines named, no principles defined. No comparison standard is established.

The earlier fullscreen story is a specific case, maybe a discoverability argument, but not not that UX violates every principle. MacOS spaces and fullscreen apps follow a workspace concept, it's not a window resize mode.

> Asymmetric user experiences

What’s asymmetric is not the command — it’s the spatial context. The claim that it’s violated is arguable.

> Heavily reliant on gestures

Not sure which guidelines this breaks, but every gesture has a keyboard shortcut alternative, there is mission control key, menu bar, dock.

> Ridiculous failure modes

No failure mode is defined.

staticassertion 1 hour ago||
> And you admitted to spending time in the terminal, which indicates lack of will to try and learn macos shortcuts, gestures, windowing model, spaces, and so on.

It indicates no such thing, other than that my preferred UX on a mac has landed on the terminal. It doesn't indicate whatsoever that I never tried to learn, or that I haven't learned, unless you presuppose that learning would necessitate using the computer a specific way.

Indeed, I have learned quite a lot of the various gestures, spaces, etc, unsurprisingly. I avoid them because they suck, and the learning experience was shit.

> And the comment used sweeping generalizations, without referring to any specific principles broken which aren't just personal dislikes or unfamiliarity with a different way of doing things.

All design principles are going to boil down to personal dislikes lol but no, nothing was "unfamiliarity" you can stop saying that thanks.

> No guidelines named, no principles defined. No comparison standard is established.

I could cite guidelines if you think it would help. Microsoft released a UX guideline years ago justifying why magic corners etc are a bad idea. Of course, they obviously don't follow that guide these days. What would you like?

I'm not interested in debating this. I'm perfectly fine with how I've expressed myself, I'm just not motivated enough this late in a Friday to get more detailed, so you'll have to just try to decipher what I've said and find if there's value to you or reject it, which I think is your prerogative.

zeppelin101 2 hours ago|||
And if you bring up these points to an Apple fanboy, they'll tell you that "you just don't get it" or "forget all the 'bad Windows habits' and just learn the Apple way of things. It's soooo intuitive!!".
staticassertion 2 hours ago||
> "forget all the 'bad Windows habits' and just learn the Apple way of things

I mean I'd be willing to say I don't get it, because I sure as fuck do not get it. But I think I'd absolutely reject the "forget all the other stuff, learn this". It's been literally years on a Mac. I remember the frustration of going from Windows to Linux, I look back at that adjustment and laugh, it's hilarious to me that that felt frustrating when I contrast to my Mac adjustment. At least the Linux adjustment was tractable, the Mac adjustment is a total joke.

I actually suspect that people don't "adjust" in the sense of learning how to do things with a mac but instead adjust to not doing things with a mac, like how many mac users I know of outright say they just don't use full screen mode because it's confusing.

zeppelin101 2 hours ago|||
Agreed. On MacOS, I use a variety of smaller apps and scripts to make it less awkward, e.g. Karabiner, BetterTouchTool, Hammerspoon, and, of course, "Alt-Tab" (https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/). I am even contemplating starting to use a dedicated window manager, such as Aerospace (https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace/). But all of this is a massive time investment.
zeppelin101 2 hours ago|||
And yes, the fullscreen mode is the perfect example. It is so shockingly poorly implemented that I almost never use it. Even if someone thought it was 'good enough', that doesn't change the fact that there is a forced transition animation when going to/from fullscreen that is unreasonably slow and awkward.
pjerem 2 hours ago||
I actually like the concept of an app in full screen creating a new virtual desktop.

I feel like it’s really intuitive when you switch desktops with the trackpad.

It’s just incredibly poorly implemented, like all the window management on macOS.

Disclaimer : I own MacBooks since 2010 and I have seen macOS rotting update after update. To me they achieved a really mature and pretty well thought OS with Snow Leopard and it’s been slowly rolling downhill since then.

I can totally say that KDE AND Gnome AND Cinnamon AND Sway AND even the immature Niri are all better experiences than macOS.

sjogress 9 hours ago|||
Personally replaced Windows 10 with Linux Mint on my very computer illiterate mother in law's laptop a few months back. Haven't heard any complaints so far.

Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software.

Personally, I'm still on MacOS for work, but all my personal devices run some form of Linux. It's been liberating to say the least.

AmazingTurtle 7 hours ago|||
I set up windows 11 on a laptop for my dad so he can read emails and browse the web. Came back 3 months later when he told me he couldn't see the PDF files anymore. Turns out he installed THREE different PDF viewers that he randomly found on google, they installed tons of bloatware/spyware, replaced browser toolbars and searches etc. to a point where I decided to just restore from a recovery point. Told him not to download weird stuff (again) and ask me when he needs help.

At that point I questioned myself: I really should have installed linux for him.

dpe82 3 hours ago|||
ChromeOS is a really great option for "just want to read emails and browse the web".
pjerem 2 hours ago||
Oh yeah, at least with ChromeOS, Chrome isn’t installing itself like a spyware alongside any other software installer.
jermaustin1 6 hours ago||||
> replaced browser toolbars

This is still a thing? Browsers still have toolbars???

My go to for family is giving them no install rights, and adding a remote desktop app for me to connect to them when they need something to install.

I don't get called very often anymore, and when I do, it's for their work computer or something, to which I say, talk to your IT department, I can't fix that.

mc32 5 hours ago|||
Browsers today view and can do limited editing for PDFs. No need for a dedicated reader. One does need a dedicated authoring tool if you need to create PDFs from scratch. Most OSes support print to PDF as well if you only need conversion.
fullstop 7 hours ago||||
My daughter did this for her boyfriend's grandma, except she used Kinoite. The immutable aspect of it makes it very difficult to break.

She was over there recently and the downloads folder was littered with malware .exe files, so the grandma is trying her hardest to break it.

abdullahkhalids 7 hours ago||
UBlock origin will fix most of that problem.
kgermino 7 hours ago||
But it creates other issues, especially for a non-techsavvy user
array_key_first 4 hours ago|||
I've never seen a website break because of ublock, at least not in the default config. If it's that much of a problem you can just remote in on grandmas computer and disable it for whatever website.

I think that beats remoting in when granny inevitably gets scammed by an ad.

There really is no excuse in my mind for not running an ad blocker. It's as vital to personal computing security as firewalls and anti malware.

abdullahkhalids 6 hours ago|||
Blocking ads helps grandma not accidentally leak private information that could have disastrous consequences, for example, getting scammed out of their money.

Not blocking ads helps grandma visit a few more websites that don't work well with adblock.

deaddodo 7 hours ago||||
I mean yeah, Chrome and Firefox both run on Linux. And that covers 99% of what most "normies" need.

It's funny when people say Linux is difficult for their grandparents or siblings, when that's the place it covers best. And it keeps them from calling you about random adware/spyware/viruses they accidentally installed.

It's prosumers and professionals that have more issues with Linux, because they tend to rely on proprietary software that's problematic to install/use.

tracker1 4 hours ago||
Before she passed, I had one of my Grandmothers on Ubuntu for about a decade... I had to set it up for her, and I ran updates every few months for her, but she really didn't have an issue... Her Windows 9x era games even ran under Wine when they wouldn't load on Windows (7 I think), correctly.

Email, browser and a few games... she was pretty happy with it.

dfxm12 4 hours ago||||
I was so close to getting my parents to switch to Ubuntu in the late 2000s. It stuck until my dad needed some piece of software on the home PC for work that only worked with Windows. Today, they have iPhones and they think it will be more convenient to have a Mac to "sync things". Oh well...
microtonal 3 hours ago||
Today, they have iPhones and they think it will be more convenient to have a Mac to "sync things". Oh well...

And for a very long time they would have been right. But it seems that all the commercial desktop OSes are in the maximize money extraction-phase now.

virgil_disgr4ce 8 hours ago|||
> Linux is ready for prime time for anyone not bound to Windows/MacOS software.

I suspect in order for this to be true we'd need a PR campaign that can shift culture on the scale of civil rights.

I'm not trying to be hyperbolic or deride Linux or anything—I agree that technologically it's probably ready. Overall UX I'm slightly skeptical. But the far bigger problem is culture.

There's already been a shift away from "PCs" among younger people. The majority of my kids friends have never touched a "regular computer." I've heard an unsettling number of reports of new hires who have never heard of a spreadsheet.

I'm bringing this up because if kids aren't using PCs as much in the first place and quite literally don't know what an operating system is (and please challenge this assumption; I'm going off of anecdata) it's going to be even harder to try to create cultural awareness and acceptance of linux.

But even disregarding that there would need to be a massive, massive coordinated campaign to create a real culture shift. I'm talking superbowl ads.

Again, not trying to be pessimistic, I'm trying to say that "ready for prime time" at this point has little to do with engineering or even design and far more to do with PR. Once I started launching my own products I quickly discovered (as everyone does) that making the thing is like 5% of the job and the remaining 95% is marketing.

treis 7 hours ago||
The frustrating thing is that developers are some of the most reluctant to change. I'm sick of fighting docker on my Mac among the many other problems. But if we can't break away nobody else is going to either.
readme 8 hours ago|||
Even gnome tries to be too modern imo. KDE is perfect. I used to feel like KDE was too much like a toy. Now by comparison it looks utilitarian.
Munky-Necan 8 hours ago|||
I've been using KDE for a decade and I completely agree. It used to be only better than GNOME because I could remove features from it and now I run completely stock KDE and it's solid compared to anything else.
dlcarrier 6 hours ago|||
I bought an SBC that booted into Gnome on the official disk image, and it didn't recognize my mouse. It was entirely unusable. In applications that were part of Gnome itself, like the settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.
hollandheese 41 minutes ago||
>settings menu, it was impossible to navigate using tab and arrow keys.

Huh? All you need is tab and the arrow keys to navigate the GNOME Settings app. I'm literally doing that right now. Maybe it was a later addition but it works perfectly fine in GNOME 49.

kn100 8 hours ago|||
Gnome Shell in particular offers a ridiculously coherent, sane window management. Nobody agrees with all the choices the Gnome Team took to get here, but it sure is nice there being one way of doing everything that makes sense contextually.
donmcronald 2 hours ago|||
I don't even know if Gnome and Gnome Shell are the same thing. One thing I do know is the default install of Gnome on Debian 13 leaves you without a dock, without a system tray, and without minimize/maximize buttons. They purposely remove the three most important tools the average user relies on for navigation.

It's like trying to make a car without any round edges because "square edges are better". Good luck with the wheels!

I can fix that somewhat with extensions, but every normal person I know will take one look at the defaults and abandon it. That's a reasonable choice in my opinion. Why use something where the first interaction gives you a clear indication you're going to be fighting against developer ideology?

horsawlarway 5 hours ago|||
I agree.

If you want to customize your DE a lot - Gnome isn't for you.

If you just want a clean and productive environment by default... Gnome is great.

Once you stop fighting it, sigh, and go with the flow... modern Gnome is genuinely pleasant in that I spend almost zero time thinking about it, and shit just works.

I still run other DEs for some specific purposes where "general use" isn't the goal, but I can reliably hand non-technical family members a machine with Gnome and they don't have to come ask me a bunch of questions.

microtonal 3 hours ago||
My problem with GNOME (after having used it as my main desktop on my Linux systems for many years) is that it removes some really useful features and they are not just expert features, but also features that non-technical users are used to, such as system tray icons and menu bars. You can bring them back with GNOME Extensions, but for instance, the system tray icon extensions are very buggy.

KDE on the other hand just has these and is also great out-of-the-box (I pretty much run stock KDE).

someguyiguess 1 hour ago|||
This has to be sarcasm. Either that or you have never used KDE or Gnome even once in your life. No DE for Linux is anywhere near as polished as the DE in Mac OS. You have to spend hours customizing KDE or CFCE to get them to function even halfway near what an average user would expect. Gnome is okay but so bloated and even more opinionated than MacOS or Windows.
olivierestsage 1 hour ago||
This is definitely not the case, and I invite anyone reading this comment to install a Linux distribution themselves in a VM or something to find out via direct experience. Fedora is a good place to start in my opinion.
kilroy123 9 hours ago|||
I think you can absolutely set up a Linux box for grandma / grandpa.
Loudergood 7 hours ago||
Anyone who lives in the browser really. My mom and my kids all are on Ubuntu these days.
horsawlarway 6 hours ago||
Anyone who lived in a browser was fine a decade ago.

At this point... it's basically anyone who doesn't want to play competitive mp games with poorly implemented anti-cheat, or who doesn't have niche legacy hardware (ex - inverters, CNCs, oscopes, etc).

Steam tackling the gaming side of things has basically unlocked the entire Windows consumer software ecosystem for linux. It's incredibly easy to spin up windows only applications with nothing but GUI only software on most distros at this point.

Crazy how much better a system with a modern linux kernel and Gnome or KDE is than Windows 11. I'm at the point where I also prefer it to macOS... which is funny since I think Gnome was basically playing "copy apple" for a bit there 5 years ago, but now has really just become the simpler, easier to use DE.

hs86 8 hours ago|||
In the past few years, I’ve started to develop a form of “upgrade dread” when it comes to OS upgrades. What are they going to enshittify now? What are they going to drop support for now?

This somehow excluded Linux and its DEs, and I eagerly read any news, changelogs, and announcements in this space. They’re still not perfect in every aspect, but at least I see things improving instead of public turf wars between departments trying to improve their KPIs.

Why is there an extra URL handler for MS Edge that bypasses the default browser config? Why is the search bar this wide in the default taskbar config instead of showing a simple button? Why are local searches always sent to Bing with no easy way to switch it off or change the search provider?

jraph 8 hours ago|||
> I’ve started to develop a form of “upgrade dread” when it comes to OS upgrades.

I've been going the other way on Linux.

I used to think it might be wise to postpone updates if you were traveling, especially using a rolling distro. Today, I would be quite confident running the updates 10 minutes before leaving.

Granted, this is also because I'm more confident than ever that I could fix most breakages, and worst case the smartphone is there, but I've also not seen big breakages for years.

microtonal 3 hours ago||
Yep. I run NixOS unstable-small on my ThinkPad and there is rarely breakage in daily updates. If it ever happens while on the go, I can just boot into a previous generation. The immutable OSTree/bootc distros are similar, as well as openSUSE, which uses btrfs snapshots on updates.
Tannic 6 hours ago|||
[dead]
zimmund 8 hours ago|||
Given that a lot of things happen in the browser, I think it wouldn't be too crazy. There are even distros that look like Windows if you're after that. What part of it do you think isn't ready for this scenario? (honestly curious)
olivierestsage 3 hours ago||
I wouldn't know what to recommend for "just works" photo syncing from the phone à la iCloud.
kreco 9 hours ago|||
In all fairness I wouldn't recommend macOS to my grandparent either.
AshamedCaptain 5 hours ago|||
If you want to compare on the basis of microissues like this one, then note that KDE Plasma has exactly the same issue with the resizing area of rounded corner windows aa the one pointed by TFA.
estebank 4 hours ago||
On the other hand, it does have Alt+right click & drag as a mechanism that doesn't require any manual dexterity to hit arbitrary edges.
someguyiguess 1 hour ago||
Oh yes. Alt+right click + drag. How intuitive. (not)
tracker1 4 hours ago|||
Of course I've been using Cosmic for most of the past year now... It's getting better, but still some rough edges... the launch bar still doesn't feel quite right, and there's still times where keyboard navigation doesn't quite work right/smoothly.

It's speedy though.

edoloughlin 9 hours ago|||
I set up Elementary OS for my 79 yr old mother. No issues.
ronjouch 9 hours ago||
Similar experience here: I setup Debian stable for my 76 yo mother, and for a 79 yo friend. Works like a charm, and the 2 years release schedule is perfect for people who don’t care about bleeding edge and would rather have stability.

Unattended security upgrades keep it secure, and in my experience a bit of initial “locking things down and simplifying” is valuable, but after this it’s smooth sailing compared to other older folks I help with Windows systems where MS is constantly throwing at them insane bugs, complete UX changes, ads, or Copilot everywhere.

smallstepforman 8 hours ago|||
You’ve never tried Haiku, you’re missing out on a remarkable desktop experience.
amelius 8 hours ago|||
The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated. Linux is the polar opposite of that. People used to say the latter is bad, but it turns out the former is way worse (many hackers of course already knew this).

> Not quite at the point I'd recommend them for grandma and grandpa, but not that far off, either.

But at this point grandma and grandpa are the only ones I'd recommend to use Apple devices.

doodpants 8 hours ago|||
Opinionated design was great back when Apple's Human Interface Guidelines were based on concrete user testing and accessibility principles. The farther we get from the Steve Jobs era, the more their UI design is based on whatever they think looks pretty, with usability concerns taking a back seat.
ryandrake 6 hours ago|||
It was good because it was both Opinionated (in other words, the path to write software that follows the design was easy, and the paths to write software that violated the design were hard), and also well-researched by human interface experts.

Now what we appear to have is "someone's opinion" design. A bunch of artists decided their portfolios were a little light and they needed to get their paintbrushes out to do something. I don't work at Apple, but my guess is that their HI area slowly morphed from actual HCI experts into an art department, yet retained their power as experts in machine interaction.

So here we are, we still have Opinionated design, but it might just be based on some VP's vibes rather than research.

system7rocks 4 hours ago||
I don't like to paint Apple as being completely incompetent (but damn have they been screwing stuff up), but I do think trying to solidify the experiences around a common codebase has become untenable. The idea is great thought - write one app that works on macOS, iPadOS, iPhoneOS, visionOS, etc. What a time saver that is for developers - but the problem is that screen sizes and interactions with those different platforms vary. Yes, resizing a window with your clunky finger needs a bit more wriggle room, while a pixel precise mouse or touchpad is a lot different.
someguyiguess 1 hour ago|||
And ironically, it has also gotten far less pretty. Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger was beautiful. Tahoe is flat and generic looking.
virgil_disgr4ce 8 hours ago|||
Opinionation (heh, opinionatedness?)'s value is entirely different depending on the user category.

Hackers by and large don't want opinionated, because they're willing to spend the time configuring & customizing AND have the knowledge to do so.

Just about everyone else (as far as I can tell) very specifically do not want this, and for those who do, the amount of customizeability e.g. MacOS offers is enough. Having an immediately-useable computer (recent problems notwithstanding) is of much greater value.

So when you say "The main problem is that Apple wants to be opinionated" I can only conclude that you're coming at this from the 'hacker' POV. But I may be misunderstanding your comment.

amelius 8 hours ago||
I think the problem is that opinionatedness assumes that the average user exists and represents the majority of your users.

But every user is in many ways non-average.

Thus if you create a system tailored at the average user, then none of your users will be happy.

kevstev 3 hours ago|||
I don't love all the new tahoe stuff, and do wish I could go roll back, but this hand wringing around Apple is way overblown IMHO. What he is reporting is real, but in my actual usage I haven't noticed this at all- in other words, if this wans't called out, I am not sure I would have ever realized it.

Tbh I have always found window management on Macs to be annoying and something to be avoided- Rectangle or something similar is one of the first things I install and try to use the shortcuts to just put windows in either a quarter or half of the screen.

That said, I use Macbooks for the hardware, if for whatever reason I had to switch to Linux I would just shrug and not care one bit. It took me a few years to realize, but MSFT just disappeared from my life one day and I didn't even notice.

microtonal 3 hours ago|||
Also, for some reason KDE renders everything super-fast/smoothly on my 120Hz 4k display, whereas macOS on Apple Silicon is often stuttering (no, it's not the Electron bug). The tables really turned, when I first switched to macOS on the desktop in 2007, the GPU-based rendering was insanely good compared to... pretty much everyone else.

Rather than evolutionary improvements we get Liquid Glass and ads in iWork applications. The enshittification has started I guess.

mohragk 9 hours ago|||
I disagree.

I've actually bought a Mac Mini which I use for media consumption and run it besides my Linux (Cachy OS) gaming PC. I have a jellyfin server, but the media client for linux is totally broken.

And, when you use an nvidia card, you really have to do a deep dive on which settings and which render client you want to run. I now have a stable solution that runs KDE Plasma via Wayland, that allows for games to run smoothly. It took me a while to figure that out.

The Linux community also, quite frankly, sucks. When you need to figure something out, you really need to make it a study and only if you know the correct jargon, you are deemed worthy of help. Othrwise you're bombarded with rtfm comments.

bjackman 8 hours ago|||
My mother (age 70, non technical) uses Gnome with no issues.
bpavuk 8 hours ago||
Gnome is just perfect for non-techies :)

my mother and younger sister both prefer it over default Windows 10/11 design. mum says, "feels similar to my phone [pure Android 12] yet I can do so much more".

given that sister only really needs Steam Big Picture and everything mother uses is already in Flathub or defined in a Nix flake, they didn't experience any ecosystem issues

wonnage 2 hours ago|||
As long as you stay far away from Wayland, flatpaks, and nVidia drivers
hollandheese 37 minutes ago||
Wayland and flatpaks work perfectly fine. nVidia drivers on the other hand...
qaq 6 hours ago|||
actually hunting for i9 macbook in good shape to switch to linux after decades on mac
Finnucane 8 hours ago|||
There are no good options for grandma these days. I've been helping my 85-yr-old mother with her computer stuff (she has an iMac) and there's so much user-hostile, broken stuff--not just on the Mac itself, but many of the internet-based services she has to use--it makes you want to take a baseball bat to the while affair.
carlosjobim 6 hours ago|||
If you're a developer or sys admin, sure. Or nowadays, if you're a gamer.

If your computer work is anything else, Macs are still decades ahead. With the highest quality software available for any task at cheap prices.

I can't work with a sub-par e-mail client, calendar, no good invoicing app, photo editing, etc.

And web apps do not cut it if working with these things is your job.

As for grandma and grandpa, iPad is their solution. With all the faults of the devices.

russellbeattie 8 hours ago|||
> "...while KDE and Gnome slowly get better and better"

These projects have been around for literally decades and really haven't changed much during that time. I think what you're noticing is that Linux desktops are as good as they always have been, but since Apple and Microsoft keep messing with theirs for marketing reasons, in comparison it seems that Linux GUIs are improving.

olivierestsage 6 hours ago|||
Gnome has improved significantly since the difficult Gnome 3 launch, and KDE Plasma was a massive upgrade that keeps getting better all the time.
bsimpson 6 hours ago||||
This feels untrue. Granted I haven't tracked it closely, but the Adwaita design system and the GNOME HIG feel like relatively recent developments.
array_key_first 4 hours ago|||
This is just not true at all. Yes Gnome and KDE are old, but they've changed SIGNIFICANTLY.

Gnome 2 => 3 was a bigger and more ambitious transition than anything Microsoft has done. Except maybe DOS => NT. Same thing with KDE 3 => 4.

KDE gets new features on a very regular basis and they're not just, like, little checkboxes added here or there. No. Theyre huge changes. New system resource monitor, new notification center, new widget editor, new panel editor, window tiling... the list goes on. And that's just, like, the past 2 ish years.

Linux GUIs are improving, and rapidly. Before, they were close. But the gap keeps widening. At this point, KDE is so unbelievably far ahead of windows in terms of UI, UX, usability, performance, and feature set that it doesn't seem fair. I don't know if Microsoft can catch up. And, if they could, it would take multiple versions of windows.

sgt 8 hours ago||
Sorry but you clearly haven't used macOS. Linux on the desktop is still about 15 years behind, and I tried it recently. It's such an inconsistent experience it's almost hilarious.

Speaking as a Tahoe user by the way who is not experiencing any issues to speak of (on 26.0.1 - and I can't reproduce the resizing inconsistency either). I've been using macOS since 2003 (back when it was called Mac OS X) and before that I was a Linux desktop user since 1996.

olivierestsage 6 hours ago|||
I used macOS as my daily driver from Tiger to last year, actually. I don’t know what the inconsistencies you’re referring to are, but I certainly prefer them to cloud account nagging and constant attempts to monetize user behavior, which is the modern macOS experience.
readme 8 hours ago||||
which desktop experience did you try

i'm a daily mac os x user (for a long time) and I think kde plasma is better

endemic 7 hours ago||||
I'd be curious to hear more specifics regarding the "15 years behind" and "inconsistent experience."
jraph 8 hours ago|||
Inconsistent experience maybe, but does this inconsistency really get in the way of actual work?
ctbeiser 1 hour ago||
I have a guess as to why this fix was delayed—on the release candidate, you weren't able to resize windows in Stickies. I filed a bug for it. This felt like a last-minute addition—the previous betas didn't have the 'fix.'

Let's think about why: if the width of the handle is based on the radius, and the radius is 0 for a window, there's nowhere for the grab handle to be.

I assume this wasn't the only app with fully square windows, and so the fix actually caused more problems. Respinning a release candidate is expensive, and they were out of time for this one. So the patch gets reverted and the fix gets iterated on for the next release, where they'll presumably figure something clean out that's conditional on exact window shape.

26.4 could be the spring hardware release or it could be the spring services release. I would give it a 2/3 chance of landing in 26.4, and a 1/3 of being moved to 26.5.

ivanjermakov 21 hours ago||
Since the first taste of Linux WMs, I believe the best and only good way of handling window move and resize is super+lmb/rmb respectively. No more pixel-perfect header/corner sniping!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/qv0vmz/missing_supe...

Nition 14 hours ago||
On Linux if you learn shortcuts for close/minimise/maximise as well, you can even remove window borders and title bars entirely. It's free screen real estate.
sigmoid10 13 hours ago|||
The gnome window title bars are obnoxiously thick and useless by default tho. I've found that Unity or even just Windows like styling in Gnome is a lot more respectful to your screen real estate.
1718627440 11 hours ago|||
I like the Gnome 2 title bars (Mate). Gnome wasn't always that bad.
philipallstar 9 hours ago||||
Yes, Gnome looks very odd because of that.
prmoustache 13 hours ago||||
That is a tradeoff that makes it nice when you have a convertible laptop.

I wish it was simply configurable from the settings dialogs.

user2722 13 hours ago|||
It definitely needs improvement but for touchscreens it is good.
tremon 1 hour ago||
Luckily, 95% of Linux devices actually have touchscreens.

The sad bit is where you realize that GNOME is typically only found on the other 5%.

Fluorescence 10 hours ago||||
It's my preference too. What do you use?

I used to use "GTK Title Bar" gnome extension which was abandoned a few versions ago so had to write my own and it's X11 specific. The one drawback is that when windows are reopened, they are offset by the title bar height i.e. it messes up whatever is tracking the size/offset/location.

Anyone have other ways to do this in gnome and do they work on wayland too?

Nition 14 minutes ago||
I'm on Fedora KDE so won't be much help to you, but there is a "Windows Rules" section in the system settings where I've added a rule that applies to all windows with the property "No titlebar and frame". Actually I'd quite like frame just with no titlebar, but that's not an option.
Rygian 11 hours ago||||
The AltDrag tool on Windows includes Super+double click to maximize/restore. I find it surprising that this does not come by default on KDE.
noughtnaut 11 hours ago|||
"AltSnap" is a continuation of AltDrag that's better on Windows 11. It is instrumental in making me loathe Windows 11 _ever so slightly_ less.

https://github.com/RamonUnch/AltSnap

jraph 8 hours ago|||
I drag the window to the top for this. On KDE there's also a (configurable) keyboard shortcut (Meta + prev page, TIL, might start doing this now).
pjmlp 9 hours ago||||
Depends on the window manager.
GuinansEyebrows 6 hours ago|||
> It's free screen real estate.

jim, does it get any better than this?

anschwa 19 hours ago|||
On macOS, you can enable window dragging by holding down the Control+Command keys with this command:

    defaults write -g NSWindowShouldDragOnGesture -bool true
I use this with "three finger drag", and resizing at the window border hasn't been much of an issue for me.
loeber 17 hours ago|||
MacOS is the "it just works" operating system. As such, I think the moment that you need to declare custom workarounds like this, it kind of loses its legitimacy, and you should already be in Linux land.
latexr 14 hours ago|||
I abhor the current state of macOS and Tim Cook’s leadership, but your take is nonsensical.

For one, “it just works” hasn’t been used in over a decade, same as Google’s “don’t be evil”, which does tell you something about their current philosophies.

But more importantly, “it just works” was obviously never about it “it reads your mind and does every software feature however you personally like”, it was about the integration of hardware and software and not having to fiddle with drivers and settings to get hardware basics working.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/7hd450/it_just_works/

Forgeties79 9 hours ago||
I miss 2016 apple
dsego 2 hours ago||
When they ditched all the ports and added the butterfly keyboard?
Forgeties79 1 hour ago||
While I get the butterfly keyboard hate (though mine is so far still perfectly fine) the USB-C ports were amazing. I have a 2016 MBpro and that thing still cooks really well. As somebody who worked in video production those ports were a godsend. No more waiting around for footage to transfer all the damn time. Complete game changer. Plus with one or two quality docks I could plug-in literally anything I ever needed. With the AMD GPU i could also edit pretty beefy 4K with no proxies most of the time. In 2016/2017 that was pretty awesome. Plus last good intel machine they made IMO, so good compatibility with lots of software, target display mode for old iMacs, windows if I wanted it, etc.

Probably my favorite laptop I’ve ever owned. Powerful machine, still sees work, runs great.

dsego 1 hour ago||
It introduced USB-C before it was ubiquitous even on smartphones, at least in my area. All the peripherals still needed a dongle, it was the dongle era. The keyboard was okay to type on once I got used to the short travel, but the keycaps easily broke off, and dust would get in and the keys wouldn't register. Also, the whole laptop would get very hot, at least the 13" pro without the touchbar. I prefer the older 2015 model, before the butterfly, that's the one I had at work but had to give it up, and I regret waiting for the new models instead of purchasing the same one.
huijzer 14 hours ago||||
Compared to my old NixOS with tiling window manager, I’d say MacOS panes just doesn’t work. I have Rectangle, but it’s no comparison to the full tiling experience. I switched for Apple Silicon nothing more
bartvk 9 hours ago|||
I use Aerospace and it's an okay but not great tiling window manager. Note that AeroSpace really is among the best on macOS, but I'm guessing the OS APIs simply don't expose enough hooks.

https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace

coldtea 8 hours ago||||
Most people wouldn't touch "NixOS" or a Linux-style "tiling window manager" with a 10-ft pole, though. For them, the tiling window manager is a good in-between.
asimovDev 10 hours ago||||
what is the full tiling experience like? I was never a tiling WM guy, on Linux I'd just set some KDE shortcuts for moving and resizing windows. On macOS I used Spectacle and then Rectangle but not sure what I am missing out on, I was always content with Spectacle
eru 9 hours ago||
I've used XMonad for a while now. Almost no fiddling with windows at all.
alimbada 11 hours ago|||
I've been using Amethyst for a couple of years now and it's been working quite well for me.
coldtea 8 hours ago||||
Even if this was a "custom workaround" this argument would be extreme "all or nothing" binary thinking.

An OS can "just work" for of the stuff a user does, and just need some tweaking here or there. Doesn't mean if the "just works" stuff is not 100% you're just as good going to Linux.

Anyway, this is not some "custom workaround", it's a regular Apple-provided macOS toggle. It's just not exposed in the UI, because for most users, the regular way "just works". I know all kinds of "defaults" toggles, and barely use 1/100 of them, because the actual defaults are fine.

jonhohle 16 hours ago||||
But, believe it or not, is very customizable (and previously very scriptable). I have Shift+Command+M (maximize) bound to resize to fit the content (different from full screen in macOS). Anything that’s in a menu can be bound to a keyboard shortcut without any additional utilities.
happymellon 14 hours ago|||
I have multiple virtual desktops. Can I move a window to the next desktop from the keyboard without 3rd party software yet?
cpuguy83 2 hours ago||||
This used to be option exposed in settings.
avidphantasm 8 hours ago||||
I kind of agree with you, but on macOS I still don’t have to ever think about drivers. The hardware just works. Linux isn’t quite there yet. My work XPS laptop running Ubuntu is close, but not quite the same.
create-username 15 hours ago||||
I found myself closing Linux windows sometimes only with alt+F4; sometimes only with ctrl+Q; sometimes with both; sometimes with none
eru 9 hours ago||
You can close them with xkill and a single click.
monegator 14 hours ago||||
Yes, the mac user faces incredible disillusion when he discovers that "just works" was just another marketing gimmick (to the likes of it doesn't get viruses!)
rahoulb 10 hours ago|||
As a long-time Mac user, "it just works" actually meant "it either works or it doesn't" - a *binary*. Whereas other OSes were shades of grey - it _might_ work if you spend time searching and trying random combinations in settings.

And it was good because it saved time.

(Same used to apply to iOS too)

coldtea 8 hours ago|||
As a 20+ year heavy mac AND linux user, both are true.

It doesn't get viruses, especially if you don't install random junk from warez sites and stick to MAS, brew, and a few trusted vendors. Even if you do install crap, it's trojans not viruses, which are more like the Yeti (something like that might exist, but few have seen it) than a problem mac users have.

And things "just work" way way way way more than they do in Linux (and I've started using it professional as desktop and for dev work in late 1990s, I'm not weekend tourist to it), which is exactly what I expected as a pragmatist. Only some non-existing carricature user that exists in strawman arguments expected everything to be perfect.

monegator 7 hours ago||
The "they don't catch viruses" is a bold lie, but back then when i worked in tech sales the apple promoter wanted us to repeat the lie ad nasueam. They definetly catch malware and it's as easy as in any other platform (also because today the malware will likely be running in a headless chromium instance)

I've had a macbook since 2010, and to me its software quality has been going downhill since snow leopard, today it's completely unrecognizable.

I think apple jumped the shark more or less in 2012 with the flay layouts, when they also started changing ages old defaults, hiding and then removing features for power users, too much handholding and telling you what's best for you, things like that.

My macbook from that era is still with me, but it runs debian now, same as any other PC i use for work or leisure, and it's really so much better for me as a programmer and as a user. Freedom. It's really freedom (and KDE's ergonomics really clicks with me). I recently had to install unsigned software on one of our worplace's mac minis (which i'm glad i don't have to use anymore) and it was so incredibly frustrating i wanted to smash that thing.

coldtea 5 hours ago||
>The "they don't catch viruses" is a bold lie, but back then when i worked in tech sales the apple promoter wanted us to repeat the lie ad nasueam. They definetly catch malware and it's as easy as in any other platform (also because today the malware will likely be running in a headless chromium instance)

Malware is not a virus. And it doesn't catch malware if you keep to trusted sources and keep on OS protective layers like SIP.

Install junk from warez sites and the like, and YOU installed something (still not a virus: a trojan). If you couldn't install it at all (also totally possible) you'd be crying how macOS restricts you.

In over 20 years of OS X use I've never had any virus, nor did anyone I know. Over 30 years of Windows I've had plenty.

>They definetly catch malware and it's as easy as in any other platform

If you install it, it's not a virus (and you can't avoid that in any OS, unless they lock you out of arbitrary program download and execution and only have you run in sandboxes).

Even so, you can very well install and not give it privileges, and then it can't even touch important directories. If you install it && enter your admin credentials to let it do whatever, it's on you.

>I've had a macbook since 2010, and to me its software quality has been going downhill since snow leopard, today it's completely unrecognizable.

It has, but that has nothing to do with now allowing viruses or even malware (in fact, regarding the latter, is more secure than it was in 2010 via multiple measures).

tclancy 17 hours ago||||
apt-get install logicalleap

Sudo apt-get install logicalleapd

hombre_fatal 16 hours ago|||
Windows is also the "it just works" operating system, and it has hundreds of useful things you can only do through registry hacks.

It's not a very useful test.

I look at the good things about macOS over desktop linux like how cmd-c/v works across all apps, and it would be amazing if it were just a cli command to bridge the gap.

matharmin 15 hours ago|||
In my experience, Windows is very far from a "it just works" OS.
jug 13 hours ago||
It's the ambition as a home user OS though, like macOS. And in the discussion of "it just works" operating systems, who else are we to go by than the vendor ambitions? Personal opinions? In that case, neither is because both struggle to always work in all scenarios since their respective inceptions.
StilesCrisis 10 hours ago||
When the phrase originated, manually updating CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT were expected skills of a home PC owner. The idea of buying a device, plugging it in, and having it work without a complex setup was unheard of. "It just works" on the Mac meant the absence of a DOS layer, IRQs, command lines, etc.
friendzis 15 hours ago||||
AFAIK Windows has never been known or marketed as "it just works". It goes long way to maintain backwards compatibility, but lets not kid ourselves that it has any semblance to what Apple's "it just works" is supposed to mean.
shiroiuma 13 hours ago|||
In what universe has Windows ever been a "it just works" OS? Not this one.
jihadjihad 8 hours ago||||
I think it was a mistake for Apple to put some of the best QOL, not just accessibility, enhancements behind the Accessibility section of the Settings, rather than on the Trackpad settings. Three finger drag is a game changer, and a lot of my colleagues had no idea it existed.
heddhunter 6 hours ago||
The weird thing is that setting used to be in the trackpad settings! I have no idea why they moved it. It's one of the first things I enable on every device I use.
jihadjihad 5 hours ago|||
Exactly, same, and same. I was in the company HQ a few weeks ago and one of my colleagues just got a new machine. I was watching them set it up and was like, "How do you live like that, clicking the top and holding to drag to move the window?" They had no idea three finger drag was a thing, life changed.
c-hendricks 5 hours ago|||
Probably due to the longstanding bugs with it. I still use it on all my laptops, but Finder in particular gets tripped up with what the drag state is when using it.
weikju 19 hours ago||||
Wish it worked on all windows. For some reason Settings is exempt from this, for example.
Reason077 12 hours ago|||
The macOS Settings app is broken in all kinds of ways, as far as UI/UX goes. It's been this way since they redesigned it a few years back. Not that it was great before, but the redesign just made it worse.
jmarcher 18 hours ago|||
It (partially) works, but only if the cursor is NOT hovering over the right portion of the window. So only 30% works.
hosteur 9 hours ago||||
I tried this on most recent MacOS 26 - it does not work here. Might it be because I have Rectangle installed?
bathwaterpizza 8 hours ago|||
Works great for me. I enabled that functionality alongside resizing on RMB by using "Easy Move+Resize" from GH. I also use Raycast to bind most window management stuff, it's instant unlike the built-in alternatives on Tahoe.
jihadjihad 8 hours ago|||
Same, tried with and without Rectangle running and haven't seen it work yet. Must be missing something obvious.

edit: I ended up trying Easy Move+Resize which is mentioned in a sibling comment, can recommend, works as advertised.

onion2k 13 hours ago||||
I don't think I know how to confirm that command is correct, and I've been a Mac user for decades. If Apple's solution to problems is "trust the CLI command you found on a website" then I might need to sell some shares.
omnifischer 14 hours ago|||
if you search

NSWindowShouldDragOnGesture

you see how often this feature gets broken and type some other flag or install 3rd party app.

thanatos519 14 hours ago|||
I used to use the Sawfish window manager ... before it fell out of maintenance, oh and before I switched to DEs with the window manager bolted on.

The thing I miss the most from Sawfish is that it let me resize any window. There are a lot of fixed-sized modal dialogs with scrollbars that wouldn't need them if they were taller, and there's a lot of room on my portrait monitor!

cachius 13 hours ago||
What a nice feature! Really puts the user in control. Is there any maintained WM allowing this? How are modals treated on tiling WMs?
garciansmith 21 hours ago|||
Yeah, it was one of those things I noticed when I first started using Linux and wondered why every other OS didn't just copy it.
cosmic_cheese 21 hours ago|||
Probably just simple resistance to use of modifier keys in non-technical users, at least on the Windows side. A lot of users never touch a modifier except for Ctrl for copy/paste and maybe Windows for start menu search.

On the Mac side where key combos and modifier use is more widespread among users, it’s probably because there’s no intuitive visual that can be associated with the interaction.

gf000 16 hours ago|||
It's not like Apple would frown about the idea of an action having "no intuitive visual associated with it". On iOS, you can scroll to the top by pressing on the status bar as one example.
throwaway290 15 hours ago||
Unless your status bar is on the bottom. Then scrolling up is really hit or miss
isametry 10 hours ago||
The status bar – as in: the area where the clock, battery and signal strength are shown – is absolutely always at the top of the screen on iOS.
garciansmith 20 hours ago||||
Oh, I get having a visual way of doing it with just a mouse for sure. But for power users or even just-a-little-bit-of-knowledge users it's super quick and convenient. When I had to use Windows for work it drove me nuts that the option wasn't there (ended up finding AltDrag thankfully).
hota_mazi 20 hours ago|||
On Windows, I use AltDrag.
tricked 14 hours ago||
Altdrag doesn't work with scaling and is missing some other nice to haves, The Altsnap fork of it fixes this. Its one of the first things i install.
mmis1000 21 hours ago|||
windows does support [win] + [arrow key] though
nozzlegear 19 hours ago||
Mac supports the win (Cmd) + arrow key thing too; figured I'd mention since the story is about macOS window management.
Mackser 10 hours ago|||
Easy Move+Resize is great for this on macOS: https://github.com/dmarcotte/easy-move-resize
alejoar 10 hours ago||
This is the way, game changer.
ndiddy 20 hours ago|||
For window move I think it's a reaction to the popularization of putting UI in the window titlebar so there's nothing to grab onto. I don't mind it but I wish there was a dedicated "grab" button on the mouse because I find it clunky to have to use both hands to manage windows.
eqvinox 20 hours ago||
I can tell you the feature of Meta/Super¹+L/R click to move/resize windows has existed on Linux long before UI in the window titlebar became a thing.

¹ aka Windows key

ndiddy 8 hours ago||
I know it's been around for a while, but I don't recall people talking about it like it's a killer feature of Linux window management until after the "UI in the window titlebar" trend started.
paranoidxprod 21 hours ago|||
Recently getting a new Mac for work, coming from Hyprland has been tough, but I feel like I’m getting there. Aerospace and Karabiner-Elements have gotten me most of the way there. Have had to write a few scripts to get the workspaces working the way I’m used to, but overall I got a significant part of my workflow to mirror my Linux setup, but would still love to get the super+right click to resize working somehow (there is a native way to move windows with ctrl+cmd+left click which was nice).
airstrike 20 hours ago|||
Same here. I use both!

> get the super+right click to resize working somehow (there is a native way to move windows with ctrl+cmd+left click which was nice).

I've tried this with Hamerspoon to no avail and ultimately gave up... if you find a workaround, I'm all ears!

I really miss AHK...

malnourish 18 hours ago||||
How are you liking Aerospace? I miss i3. I tried a few TWMs in Mac but they felt quite janky, but it's possible I just didn't give them time.
crimist 18 hours ago||
Not OP but it's the best auto tiling WM I've found for MacOS so far. Yabai requires SIP disabled for what I would consider core features which is a no go on a work laptop. Aerospace sides steps this and MacOS's horrible window management by just not using the built in spaces. I've only had to restart it a couple times over the last 4 months due to bugs.

I also use https://github.com/acsandmann/aerospace-swipe to add trackpad support.

jitl 19 hours ago|||
see my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46998527
jitl 19 hours ago|||
i use this. it’s not maintained so you need to manually enable its access to assistive control in Settings but besides that still works great:

https://github.com/jmgao/metamove

it does exactly what you want coming from Fluxbox-style window managers

here’s how i configure it (it has a settings ui, this just automates setting it up) https://github.com/justjake/Dotfiles/blob/3d359f961b009478ef...

i didn’t notice the hideous corner grab areas for a few weeks after updating to 26 because i never tried to use the corner

stevage 17 hours ago|||
Yeah I use a third-party add on for macOS that does something similar.

The only annoyance is situations where you are moving the mouse while also starting to press a ctrl+ or cmd+ key combination and unexpectedly move or resize the window in the process.

delaminator 12 hours ago||
I use i3-wm

I never resize a window with its border.

I never minimize a weindow.

I sometimes move a window to a different panel but it snaps to the width / height of the column.

Overlapping windows is perhaps the worst GUI paradigm - it's like the first thing someone thought of for 640 x 480 screens.

Let it go.

pjmlp 9 hours ago||
Tiling window managers used to be a thing in the old days, they predate the invention of overlapping windows, there is a reason it is only a minority that reaches out to them nowadays.
zamalek 8 hours ago|||
Tilings are no better or no worse than floating. There are many users who would benefit from them (people who typically keep all their windows maximized), but have had literally zero exposure two them due to MacOS and Windows.

Complaints about lack of window snapping in MacOS vs Windows, a loose copy of tiling, are consistent across the internet. If MacOS and Windows had native tiling support, you'd see a fight fiercer than tabs vs. spaces.

The reason floating windows are used is because "that's the way it is done." Windows 95 wowed the world and established the status quo.

Not to mention the direction that the likes of Paper and Niri are going, these are things that very few users get to experience and therefore couldn't possibly have an informed decision on what they prefer.

nickjj 6 hours ago|||
> Not to mention the direction that the likes of Paper and Niri are going, these are things that very few users get to experience and therefore couldn't possibly have an informed decision on what they prefer.

niri is great because it gives you the best of all worlds.

Scrolling by default but you can easily float and tile things as needed. It feels so intuitive for how I use computers.

I've created a few posts and videos on using niri while going over my workflows in https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-is-niri-this-good-live-de... and https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/day-to-day-window-management-....

Having used Windows for 25 years, there's no chance I'll ever go back. This environment is already substantially better. That's after tricking Windows out with virtual desktops, global hotkeys, window positioning tools, launchers, multiple clipboards, heavily WSL 2 driven, etc..

I tried to switch a few times over the last decade but was always blocked by hardware issues on this machine, those blockers are gone now.

pjmlp 8 hours ago|||
Windows does tiling just fine, it even has layout suggestions.
zamalek 6 hours ago||
Yes, which is why people complain about MacOS vs Windows. People wouldn't complain about the lack of quasi-tiling in MacOS if they didn't care about it (which is the gist of your gp comment). The only reason they have experienced it is because Windows has quasi-tiling.
delaminator 8 hours ago||||
Not in a GUI though. Sun Windows was overlapping, GEM was overlapping and almost everything else since then.

I'm on a 5120x2160 monitor and tiling is super perfect.

Can't recommend it enough.

pjmlp 8 hours ago||
There were others out there, e.g. Oberon, Lilith,...
delaminator 7 hours ago||
That's where I learned the power of tiling. Years of using the Acme text editor.

When you also learn drop down menus are not needed either.

zamalek 5 hours ago||
Yup, but "normies" do need menus or at least some way to do things that has some degree of visual affordance (e.g. a persistent cmd/ctrl+p, which I think Office has/had).
delaminator 2 hours ago||
not everyone can drive a Ferrari
BoingBoomTschak 8 hours ago|||
That reason being that there is a minority of people who reach out to anything instead of just using what they're given. Compounded by baby duck syndrome, of course.
pcurve 17 hours ago||
Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.

Back in the days when it was common for Macintosh to have 640x480 screens (or even smaller), they still fully visible window controls that were impossible to miss.

https://erichelgeson.github.io/blog/2021/03/23/ultimate-syst...

johnwalkr 13 hours ago||
>Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.

And despite things being smaller, there's also white space everywhere so there is less information on your screen.

The trend in UIs is making filenames into discrete icons instead of lists. In outlook this morning all I got 3 attachments and it's 3 icons that all are something almost identical like "<word icon>2026-02-13_A....docx" and I have to hover over them to figure out each filename. I don't get it.

I'm a Solidworks user. It's a 3D CAD program. From about 2012 to 2018, it was unusable with a display higher than 1080p because it did its own bad scaling of UI. Text elements would overlap and be cut off. Since then it works in general but to make 2D drawings I still change to 1080p. Making drawings involves a lot of clicking on lines and vertexes to add dimensions, but the hitboxes are 1 dimension thick, or even 1 single pixel. It's maddening at 4K. There are selection filters that help, but since it's sluggish in general in 4K I just admit defeat and use 1080p.

malfist 4 hours ago||
I launched spotify on my phone today and it had a grid of playlists I could chose from. The grid showed a maximum of 6 characters per playlist over two lines, but there was certainly a lot of whitespace available, and some random album art that told me nothing.

It was basically unusable, but I'm sure some designer thought it was slick.

Screenshot: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ii0xb6fcnexdfpdudayj1/2026-02...

iammattmurphy 2 hours ago|||
That’s actually unreal. You’d think with all the money they steal from artists they could afford UX that isn’t hilariously bad.
thatfunkymunki 3 hours ago|||
this is hilariously, almost unbelievably bad
danw1979 14 hours ago|||
I’ve been a mac user since 1994, system 7, and it feels to me like the overall Mac user experience and reliability (stability, speed, etc) really peaked with Snow Leopard, 10.6.

This probably has a lot to do with the vastly improved hardware design around then - the touchpad specifically on the “blackbook” Core 2 Duo era macbooks was a step change, and they keyboard was pretty great too. Multi-monitor support was fantastic compared to everything else too.

You have to wonder what the design principles of pre-X MacOS paired with modern Apple hardware could achieve.

MSFT_Edging 9 hours ago||
I'm sorry guys, it's my fault.

My first mac was a 09 MBP with snow leopard, shortly after they updated and started removing random features and closing down customization. For some reason, you couldn't be trusted with more than one right click method anymore.

A solid 15 years later I try macs again, had a nice m3 air at work and bought a personal M4 air. A few months later Tahoe comes out. I bought the thing because modern darkmode macos looked so great and was such a pleasure to use. Now it's full on bubbleboy.

Word must have gotten back to Cupertino that I was back in the ecosystem...

consp 14 hours ago|||
I have the feeling the regions are the same since the EGA's 620x200 (and hercules mode!) days of windows 3.x for almost all operating systems. Some window managers have updated it a bit but if you look at the increase in pixel density (640x480 on a 14" crt is 57ish ppi, and that is being very generous, vs my home display of 110ppi and the retina displays with 200+ ppi) I get the idea the regions have stayed the same in pixel size despite display scaling and such.

Or we all go (back) to tiling window managers and get rid of all the resizing with the press of a key, or even no press.

omnifischer 14 hours ago||
> Screens are getting bigger and bigger, yet they make things smaller and harder to click on.

Totally true. I have some some UX designers daily driving 4k monitors with 2k resolution to see things clearly!!

learn_more 22 hours ago||
>In total the thickness went down from 7 to 6 pixels, which is a 14% decrease, making it 14% more likely to miss it.

Pedantic, but chance of miss is actually less than 14% more likely since the user's click location is not uniformly random over the thickness area, it's biased toward the center (normally distributed).

eviks 17 hours ago||
Pedantic, you don't know the distribution, so the chance could be higher
odie5533 15 hours ago||
The reduction was specifically to the in-window side of the edge, so it's definitely greater than 14%.
Nition 14 hours ago||
Interesting, I've always approached from the outside in.
rezonant 14 hours ago||
I approach from whatever side the mouse happens to be on...
disconcision 5 hours ago||
never thought about it before but after playing with it a while i notice i tend to approach from the right, which means moving out if i'm inside on the right side. i think this is because my positioning accuracy seems to be higher moving leftwards than rightwards...
montroser 21 hours ago|||
Yeah, and not to mention the increase in likelihood click events the user intends for the application will make it through successfully, rather than being stolen by the window manager.
patrickmay 7 hours ago|||
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
dagi3d 21 hours ago||
I had similar thought but didn't want to be that guy.
andrei_says_ 21 hours ago|||
My take is sometimes we get paid to be that guy and precision has its place and value.

We get lost when being right is seen as having value - instead of improving clarity and precision if needed in a specific context.

2bitencryption 21 hours ago||
The interesting part, for anyone who actually reads the article - the change was fixed in an RC and then reverted in the final release.

Which implies there was some regression, some issue, some incorrect behavior or negative impact. One has to wonder… what could it have been? What could the issue with having a more accurate clickbox for the corner of the window possibly be?

galad87 15 hours ago||
It broke some NSWindow styles: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/814798
hbn 1 hour ago||
The sad part is we all know the real solution is to just UNDO THE DAMN FISHER PRICE ROUNDING

NO ONE CARED THAT THE WINDOW CORNER RADIUS DIDN'T MATCH AN IPAD, IT DOESN'T NEED TO

GuB-42 20 hours ago|||
It can be some technical detail.

For example: imagine you have 2 windows, the lower right corner of one window almost touching the upper right corner of the other, so that the bounding rectangles overlap but the graphics don't.

With the inaccurate "false square" corners, you just had to check the bounding rectangles, to know which window to resize, now you have to check the actual graphics (or more likely, a mask).

I am not saying it is the problem, but that's the kind of thing that can happen. Or it may be a simple bug, like a crash, memory corruption, an unhandled exception, the usual stuff, but they couldn't fix it in time and it is better to revert instead of leaving the buggy code or pushing an untested fix.

blindriver 20 hours ago||
Just revert the code back to pre-26! This is ridiculous, it can't possibly be this hard and if it is, it just points to the degradation in the quality of Apple software! This is maddening!
igregoryca 20 hours ago|||
This is already the pre-26 bounding box, isn't it? It's the new graphics that don't line up. (Not a great excuse, but the graphics are here to stay at least for a little while.)
reddalo 14 hours ago||
> the graphics are here to stay at least for a little while

And that's the reason why I won't buy a new Mac.

Tahoe and Liquid Glass are so horrible that they're going to lose customers because of those. They should realize what they did and just backtrack: it wouldn't be the first time they admit they made a mistake [1].

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/4/21246223/macbook-keyboard-...

watt 13 hours ago|||
Remember how long it took for them to give up on that stupid touchbar and "butterfly" keyboard. Don't hold your breath.
kccqzy 3 hours ago||
That’s a hardware issue. They backtrack on software issues fairly quickly. Remember the discoveryd saga and the revert to mDNSResponder?
rezonant 14 hours ago|||
Still waiting on admission that the magic mouse was a mistake though
maratc 3 hours ago|||
In addition to vertical scrolling, the Magic Mouse can do horizontal (or diagonal) scrolling, zooming in and out, and a couple of other tricks. This makes it worthy for the people who need this for their work. There are mice that can do horizontal or vertical scrolling -- but not both at the same time.

People who do their work on large documents (pics in Photoshop, videos, CAD, music, even Excel, etc.) use these capabilities every day, and they like their Magic mice very much. If you are not one of these people (software development, for example, can be done with vertical scroll only, for the most part), it doesn't mean it's a bad product -- all it means it's a product which is not for you.

I don't use Magic Mouse but am very far from expecting Apple to admit "the magic mouse was a mistake" though.

GuB-42 5 hours ago|||
The magic mouse have been there, almost unchanged, since 2009. That is a lot for a tech product, and retiring a product after 16 years is not admitting to a mistake. For example, the Logitech G5 mouse and its direct evolutions were among the most successful Logitech products, and it didn't last that long.

No, it is not just refusing to admit that the magic mouse was a mistake, it is considering that it is the best ever. That USB port on the underside is still one of the great mysteries though, maybe it is some quirk of evolution, because it is certainly not intelligent design.

bandrami 15 hours ago||||
> it can't possibly be this hard

Whenever I find myself saying this I remind myself it can in fact be this hard.

mvdtnz 20 hours ago|||
Pre-Tahoe windows didn't have these stupid round corners (which is the ACTUAL bug which should be fix).
tom_ 19 hours ago||
I am using Sequoia and the windows are definitely rounded! Though the radius is pretty small (the curved region is about a quarter of the mouse cursor area), so the fact you can drag it from outside the window doesn't look ridiculous.
pdhborges 15 hours ago|||
Maybe they reverted it because they are already planning to get rid of the super rounded corners!
radley 20 hours ago|||
Most likely (and natural): they tested it publically and the response wasn't positive, so they held it back until they could do it better.
msephton 20 hours ago|||
I think it shows how difficult it is to ship a seemingly easy thing inside the Apple machine.

I'm more interested in how or why this bug was approved up be worked on so quickly after it was surfaced, rather than other longstanding and arguably more impactful bugs.

StilesCrisis 19 hours ago|||
It's because the bug got publicity. Apple marketing prioritizes what does and doesn't get built. Someone saw bad publicity on the front page of HN and requested a fix.
nozzlegear 19 hours ago|||
The answer is probably a ho-hum combination of different teams work on different issues, and this one having annoyed one of the devs who could work on it.
anematode 21 hours ago|||
Maybe it was just an oversight in the merge process? e.g. the diff was applied only to the RC and not to the release branch? idk
jlaternman 20 hours ago|||
macOS does have weirdness with windows that span multiple screens. I bet some of that kicked in to an unacceptable level. It can create incoherent moving/snapping, for example. Has been kind of crazy-making for a while, for my set-up where screens are not joined but adjacent in a triangular configuration.
iainmerrick 12 hours ago||
Yeah, that's something that was unambiguously better back in the "Classic MacOS" days (probably starting with the Mac II). Windows could overlap multiple screens and they were always drawn correctly.

At some point in OS X in the switch to hardware acceleration, they started rendering windows on one screen only.

I get that you hardly ever really want a window spanning two screens, but when you accidentally misplace a window it would be handy to be able to see it on each overlapping screen so you can track it down. Right now you can put a few pixels of the title bar on the wrong screen, and the rest of the window just vanishes.

These regressions are weird given that modern hardware is vastly more powerful than a Mac II.

timw4mail 7 hours ago||
I'm pretty sure screen-spanning was better before "fullscreen"...In Lion, I think?
cardanome 20 hours ago|||
The AI reverted the change and no one does proper code reviews anymore so it went into prod.
adithyassekhar 20 hours ago||
Nah then it won't show up in the known issues section. I hope.
lobochrome 18 hours ago||
Or it was just a botched git op
userbinator 19 hours ago||
What astounds me the most about this whole thing is that the sort of hit testing involved here is a solved problem in UI, and has been for decades, yet there are still plenty of others here and elsewhere arguing about how it isn't. Even with those horrid rounded corners it's not hard, as shown in the article, which makes me wonder whether there is some internal fight between those who didn't want rounded corners (developers?) and hence tried their hardest to make it buggier, and those who wanted them (designers?), with lots of back-and-forth that eventually gave us this outcome. A disturbing amount of time and $$$ was probably spent on it, as is usual for any bureaucracy.
robocat 19 hours ago||
Mobile Safari has some horrific hit-testing for touches. There's plenty of places where touching near a control incorrectly snaps the tap to the control (sometimes with rather nasty usability consequences).

Ideally there should be some way to control the tapzone within CSS.

Last time I needed to fix the problem on a page I was responsible for it required adding an HTML element, which was far from ideal. I seem to recall I also had to explicitly add an onclick handler too (registering an onclick handler silently modifies touch behaviour on Safari - a nasty hidden side effect). There's some new badness with stealing taps in iOS26's Safari - ugggh.

layer8 5 hours ago||
> Ideally there should be some way to control the tapzone within CSS.

Please, no. Let’s not have every site react differently to how I tap a control. HTML/CSS/JS already delegate too many aspects to the application that should firmly belong in the realm of browser/OS.

yard2010 13 hours ago|||
Yesterday I thought the same thing about web app UI - solved problem, why GCP has to re-invent it and do it worse? Same thinking applies here - is it due to a fight between developers and products?
ghosty141 10 hours ago||
It's obviously not as easy as you make it sound, it was reverted since it broke some existing apps.
tzury 14 hours ago||
The updates shipped by apple introducing more bugs every cycle. It is across the board, macos, ios and ipad os. The fact there is a group inside apple, that is capable of standing against common sense and users best interest for so long, tells how wrong things are internally.

It is the steve balmer - satya nadella moment of apple.

1. Plugging my laptop to the same desktop screens requires rearranging displays almost every time. 2. Airdrop stops working for no apparent reason. 3. Copy paste across devices no longer a stable mechanism. 4. The stupid new preview app crashing if you scroll pdf pages too fast. And on and on. Those are all newly introduced critical bugs i have been facing since that flameboyant liquid glass virus took over.

Apple is a sillicon valley pioneer from the generation of hewlett packard (before it was called HP) bell labs and others. Watching a decay at its beginning is mind boggling and tragic.

noname120 13 hours ago||
For the first one (and all other screen-related bugs) you can use BetterDisplay to fix it: https://betterdisplay.pro/
debesyla 14 hours ago|||
Also MacOS completely crashes if you have ethernet cable connected and decide to also turn on the WiFi. No "hey, choose whatever you wish" or "hey, disconnect from ethernet first" errors, just complete crash to reboot, lol.
russelg 11 hours ago|||
I'll chime in and say personally I do this all the time and have never experienced a system crash from this.
dingdingdang 14 hours ago||||
I abandoned MacOS back in 2018 since I found it too quirky and poweruser-unfriendly (the main thing that comes to mind is neatly indicated by todays other MacOS related frontpage article on resizing). Now we can add overt instability to the list.
1718627440 10 hours ago|||
Honestly, why should you choose something? I regularly use both. Also multiple WiFi chips are quite handy.
suddenlybananas 14 hours ago||
Does Apple mandate AI use the way that Microsoft does?
1970-01-01 8 hours ago||
This is exactly the type of issue Steve Jobs would notice and then you're fired. The UI is the main event. If you can't get it right you don't work on it ever again.
pmdr 7 hours ago|
Well Cook's Apple is mostly about money coming in, so as long as that's happening he's not obsessing over quality.
meffmadd 5 hours ago|||
Here is what I don’t get tho: you have UX designers/engineers creating a new interface. What do you tell them? Just to do whatever? They probably spent months designing the new interface but why not fix this? They must have seen it is unusable…
lenerdenator 6 hours ago|||
All they have to do is make a better UX than Google and Microsoft. As it turns out, that particular bar is at the bottom of the Challenger Deep, so they treat it as such. Money spent on making sure your UX passes basic muster is money not given to a series of retirement and pension funds that make up the bulk of shareholders for companies like Apple.

What do you want more: decent UX, or the Smiths to be able to sell their house and swing on - and off - the course at some golf-based retirement village in Florida?

mherrmann 4 hours ago|
I switched from macOS to Linux ten years ago and haven't looked back. At the time, I compared Linux vs. macOS to living at home vs. in a hotel [1]. Since then, I feel things have only gotten better for Linux, and more restrictive and arcane on macOS.

1: https://fman.io/blog/home-and-hotel/

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