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Posted by minimalthinker 7 hours ago

My smart sleep mask broadcasts users' brainwaves to an open MQTT broker(aimilios.bearblog.dev)
298 points | 140 comments
Aurornis 6 hours ago|
Kickstarter is full of projects like this where every possible shortcut is taken to get to market. I’ve had some good success with a few Kickstarter projects but I’ve been very selective about which projects I support. More often than not I can identify when a team is in over their heads or think they’re just going to figure out the details later, after the money arrives.

For a period of time it was popular for the industrial designers I knew to try to launch their own Kickstarters. Their belief was that engineering was a commodity that they could hire out to the lowest bidder after they got the money. The product design and marketing (their specialty) was the real value. All of their projects either failed or cost them more money than they brought in because engineering was harder than they thought.

I think we’re in for another round of this now that LLMs give the impression that the software and firmware parts are basically free. All of those project ideas people had previously that were shelved because software is hard are getting another look from people who think they’re just going to prompt Claude until the product looks like it works.

lr4444lr 6 hours ago|
At this point, I trust LLMs to come up with something more secure than the cheapest engineering firm for hire.
nozzlegear 4 hours ago|||
"Anyone else out there vibe circuit-building?"

https://xcancel.com/beneater/status/2012988790709928305

alexjplant 31 minutes ago||
People make these mistakes too. Several times in my high school shop class kids shorted out 9V batteries trying to build circuits because they didn't understand how electronics work. At no point did our teacher stop them from doing so - on at least one occasion I unplugged one from a breadboard before it got too toasty to handle (and I was/am an electronics nublet). Similarly there was also a lot of hand-wringing about the Gemini pizza glue in a world where people do wacky stuff like cook fish in a dishwasher or put cooked meat on the same plate it was on when it was raw just a few minutes prior.

LLMs are just surfacing the fact that assessing and managing risk is an acquired, difficult-to-learn skill. Most people don't know what they don't know and fail to think about what might happen if they do something (correctly or otherwise) before they do it, let alone what they'd do if something goes wrong.

Aurornis 6 hours ago||||
The cheapest engineering firms you hire are also using LLMs.

The operator is still a factor.

jama211 5 hours ago||
Yeah, but they’ll add another layer of complexity over doing it yourself
Aurornis 5 hours ago||
The people doing these kickstarters are outsourcing the work because they can’t do it themselves. If they use an LLM, they don’t know what to look for or even ask for, which is how they get these problems where the production backend uses shared credentials and has no access control.

The LLM got it to “working” state, but the people operating it didn’t understand what it was doing. They just prompt until it looks like it works and then ship it.

caminante 4 hours ago||
You're still not following.

The parents are saying they'd rather vibe code themselves than trust an unproven engineering firm that does(n't) vibe code.

TeMPOraL 2 hours ago||
> they'd rather vibe code themselves than trust an unproven engineering firm

You could cut the statement short here, and it would still be a reasonable position to take these days.

LLMs are still complex, sharp tools - despite their simple appearance and proteststions of both biggest fans and haters alike, the dominating factor for effectiveness of an LLM tool on a problem is still whether or not you're holding it wrong.

Kiro 3 hours ago||||
LLMs definitely write more robust code than most. They don't take shortcuts or resort to ugly hacks. They have no problem writing tedious guards against edge cases that humans brush off. They also keep comments up to date and obsess over tests.
BoorishBears 1 hour ago|||
I had 5.3-Codex take two tries to satisfy a linter on Typescript type definitions.

It gave up, removed the code it had written directly accessing the correct property, and replaced it with a new function that did a BFS to walk through every single field in the API response object while applying a regex "looksLikeHttpsUrl" and hoping the first valid URL that had https:// would be the correct key to use.

On the contrary, the shift from pretraining driving most gains to RL driving most gains is pressuring these models resort to new hacks and shortcuts that are increasingly novel and disturbing!

devmor 3 hours ago|||
Interesting and completely wrong statement, what gave you this impression?
Kiro 3 hours ago|||
The discourse around LLMs has created this notion that humans are not lazy and write perfect code. They get compared to an ideal programmer instead of real devs.
joe_mamba 1 hour ago|||
This. The hacks, shortcuts and bugs I saw in our product code after i got hired, were stuff every LLM would tell you not to do.
gxs 2 hours ago||||
Amen. On top of that, especially now, with good prompting you can get closer to that better than you think.
salawat 2 hours ago|||
LLM's at best asymptotically approach a human doing the same task. They are trained on the best and the worst. Nothing they output deserves faith other than what can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with your own eyes and tooling. I'll say the same thing to anyone vibe coding that I'd say to programmatically illiterate. Trust this only insofar as you can prove it works, and you can stay ahead of the machine. Dabble if you want, but to use something safely enough to rely on, you need to be 10% smarter than it is.
dylanowen 3 hours ago||||
I know right. I kept waiting for a sarcasm tag at the end
majorchord 3 hours ago|||
right and wrong don't exist when evaluating subjective quantifiers
lukan 6 hours ago||||
And the cheapest engineering firm won't use LLMs as well, wherever possible?
fc417fc802 3 hours ago|||
The cheapest engineering firm will turn out to be headed up by an openclaw instance.
TheRealPomax 6 hours ago|||
fun fact, LLMs come in cheapest and useless and expensive but actually does what's being asked, too.

So, will they? Probably. Can you trust the kind of LLM that you would use to do a better job than the cheapest firm? Absolutely.

minimalthinker 6 hours ago|||
this.
SubiculumCode 6 hours ago||
How about complaining that brain waves get sent to a server? I'm a neuroscientist, so I'm not going to say that the EEG data is mind reading or anything, but as a precedent, non privacy of brain data is very bad.
willturman 4 hours ago||
Non-privacy of this person is currently sleeping data is very bad as well, for different reasons.

You know, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm beginning to wonder if poor data privacy could have some negative effects.

fc417fc802 3 hours ago||
Unsecured fitness monitor data revealed military guard post (IIRC) activity a while back.
werrett 3 hours ago|||
Yawp. T’was Strava. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracki...
iririririr 1 hour ago|||
not because you knew how much someone worked out. But because it had GPS.
b00ty4breakfast 4 hours ago|||
People will be lining up to have their brainwaves harvested because it'll be mildly easier to send emails or something similarly inane.
RobotToaster 3 hours ago||
Corporations will be lining up to require their employees have their brainwaves harvested, so they can fire employees who aren't alert enough.
delichon 5 hours ago|||
You could read the alertness level from an EEG, which could be helpful to a burglar. The device with slow-wave status seems ideal.
amarant 6 hours ago|||
How useful could something like this be for research? I'm not a neuroscientist so I have no clue, but it seems like the only justification I can think of..
mattkrause 4 hours ago|||
The general idea of an EEG system that posts data to a network?

Very, but there are already tons of them at lots of different price, quality, openness levels. A lot of manufacturers have their own protocols; there are also quasi/standards like Lab Streaming Layer for connecting to a hodgepodge of devices.

This particular data?

Probably not so useful. While it’s easy to get something out of an EEG set, it takes some work to get good quality data that’s not riddled with noise (mains hum, muscle artifacts, blinks, etc). Plus, brain waves on their own aren’t particularly interesting—-it’s seeing how they change in response to some external or internal event that tells us about the brain.

brabel 5 hours ago||||
Not a neuroscientist either but I would imagine that raw data without personal information would not be useful for much. I can imagine that it would be quite valuable if accompanied with personal data plus user reports about how they slept each night, what they dreamed about if anything, whether it was positive dreams or nightmares etc. And I think quite a few people wouldn’t mind sharing all of that in the name of science, but in this case they don’t seem to have even tried to ask.
iberator 3 hours ago||
What if you gonna think about your social security number 30000 times in your dreams, and someone knows the pattern? See the danger? That's evil.
AnimalMuppet 5 hours ago||||
If they're taking patient data for research without permission, they are not ethical researchers.
sneak 4 hours ago||
Is it really “without permission” if it’s from a server for which the access credentials have been deliberately published to the entire internet?
AnimalMuppet 1 hour ago||
If it's without the patient's permission, then yes, it is without the only permission that matters for medical ethics.
minimalthinker 5 hours ago|||
I believe they use it for sleep tracking
minimalthinker 6 hours ago|||
I would presume data privacy laws already have good precedent for health data?
baby_souffle 5 hours ago|||
> I would presume data privacy laws already have good precedent for health data?

Google for a list of all the exceptions to HIPPA. There are a lot of things that _seem_ like they should be covered by HIPPA but are not...

minimalthinker 5 hours ago||
Interesting...
freedomben 5 hours ago|||
Only for "covered entities" under HIPAA (at least in the US)
zephen 44 minutes ago|||
"Broker" is right there in the title of the post.

Baby's gotta get some cash somewhere.

Kuinox 40 minutes ago||
An MQTT Broker just mean server, that's MQTT terminology.
zephen 16 minutes ago||
Dark humor is like food.

Not everybody gets it.

Kuinox 13 minutes ago||
Here it's more Poe's law.
sneak 4 hours ago||
Millions of people voluntarily use Gmail which gives a lot more useful data than EEG output to DHS et al without a warrant under FAA702. What makes you think people who “have nothing to hide” would care about publishing their EEG data?
pedalpete 1 hour ago||
I'm the founder of neurotech/sleeptech company https://affectablesleep.com, and this post shows the major issue with current wellness device regulation.

I believe there was some good that came from last months decision to be more open to what apps and data can say without going through huge regulatory processes (though because we apply auditory stimulation, this doesn't apply to us), however, there should be at least regulatory requirements for data security.

We've developed all of our algorithms and processing to happen on device, which is required anyway due to the latency which would result from bluetooth connections, but even the data sent to the server is all encrypted. I'd think that would be the basics. How do you trust a company with monitoring, and apparently providing stimulation, if they don't take these simple steps?

simonbw 4 hours ago||
Ok, obviously unethical to do it, but this sounds like you've got the power to create some sci-fi shared dreaming device, where you can read people's brainwaves and send signals to other people's masks based on those signals. Or send signals to everyone at the same time and suddenly people all across the world experience some change in their dream simultaneously.

Like, don't actually do it, but I feel like there's inspiration for a sci-fi novel or short story there.

pjerem 2 hours ago||
That’s the plot of Paprika.
StanislavPetrov 2 hours ago|||
Dreamscape, 1984
billylo 4 hours ago|||
Inception
rzzzt 4 minutes ago||
The Cell
darba 2 hours ago||
[dead]
speedgoose 6 hours ago||
Remember that the S in IoT stands for Security.

I have deployed open MQTT to the world for quick prototypes on non personal (and healthcare) data. Once my cloud provider told me to stop because they didn’t like it, that could be used for relay DDOS attacks.

I would not trust the sleep mask company even if they somehow manage to have some authentication and authorisation on their MQTT.

n4bz0r 5 hours ago||
I don't think there is an S in IoT?..
BenjiWiebe 5 hours ago|||
Right - the saying indicates that IoT stuff is well known for ignoring security.
n4bz0r 5 hours ago||
Went right over my head :)
rationalist 4 hours ago||
Where I work, the saying is, "The H in ABC stands for Happiness."

(Also, "We're not happy until you're not happy.")

roysting 3 hours ago||||
Thank you for your astute observation. :)
absoluteunit1 5 hours ago|||
Exactly
zephen 40 minutes ago||
And the P in IoT stands Privacy, and the Q for quality.

The K, of course, stands for Ka-ching!

dnw 7 hours ago||
I would love to see the prompt history. Always curious how much human intervention/guidance is necessary for this type of work because when I read the article I come away thinking I prompt Claude and it comes out with all these results. For example, "So Claude went after the app instead. Grabbed the Android APK, decompiled it with jadx." All by itself or the author had to suggest and fiddle with bits?
minimalthinker 6 hours ago||
Very little intervention tbh. I will try to retrieve it and post.
dnw 54 minutes ago|||
That's great to hear. I'd be interested to see the session. Yes, Claude Code keeps sessions in ~/.claude/projects/ by default. Thank you!
selkin 5 hours ago|||
By default, Claude code keeps session history (as jsonl files in ~/.claude).

It’s wasteful not to save and learn from those.

dnw 53 minutes ago||
Check this out: https://github.com/kulesh/catsyphon
cyanydeez 6 hours ago||
Really is a derth of livestreams demostrating these things. Youd think if thetes so much Unaided AI work people would stream it.
kevincloudsec 4 hours ago||
The shared hardcoded credentials pattern isn't just an IoT problem. I work in AWS security and see the same thing constantly. Teams hardcode a single set of AWS access keys into their application, share them across every environment, and hope nobody runs strings on the binary. Same logic, same laziness, same outcome.

The difference is when it's a sleep mask, someone reads your brainwaves. When it's a cloud credential, someone reads your customer database. Per-device or per-environment credential provisioning isn't even hard anymore. AWS has IAM roles, IoT has device certificates, MQTT has client certs and topic ACLs. The tooling exists. Companies skip it because key management adds a step to the assembly line and nobody budgets time for security architecture on v1.

roysting 3 hours ago|
> nobody budgets time for security architecture on v1

It’s quite literally why the internet is so insecure, because at many points all along the way, “hey, should we design and architect for security?” is/was met with “no, we have people to impress and careers to advance with parlor tricks to secure more funding; besides, security is hard and we don’t actually know what we are doing, so tow the line or you’ll be removed.”

rbbydotdev 5 hours ago||
> I was not expecting to end up with the ability to read strangers' brainwaves and send them electric impulses in their sleep. But here we are.

Almost out of a Phillip K Dick novel

yumraj 1 hour ago||
While most comments are focused on the issue that they found, I’m more intrigued by the fact that Claude was able to reverse engineer so well.

Lowering the skills bar needed to reverse engineer at this level could have its own AI-related implications.

secbear 25 minutes ago|
Amazing to see claude's reasoning and process through reversing this
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