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Posted by computerliker 3 hours ago

State Attorneys General Want to Tie Online Access to ID(reclaimthenet.org)
94 points | 72 comments
dynm 2 hours ago|
What I find puzzling about these proposals is that it SEEMS like they could be designed to achieve 90% of the stated goals with almost 0% of the loss of privacy.

The idea would be that devices could "opt in" to safety rather than opt out. Allow parents to purchase a locked-down device that always includes a "kids" flag whenever it requests online information, and simply require online services to not provide kid-unfriendly information if that flag is included.

I know a lot of people believe that this is just all just a secret ploy to destroy privacy. Personally, I don't think so. I think they genuinely want to protect kids, and the privacy destruction is driven by a combination of not caring and not understanding.

jacquesm 1 hour ago||
You are mistaking cause for effect. The loss of privacy is the goal, not a side effect, the rest is just a fig leaf.
c22 2 hours ago|||
Better yet, require online services to send a 'not for kids' flag along with any restricted content then let families configure their devices however they want.

Even better, make the flags granular: <recommended age>, <content flag>, <source>, <type>

13+, profane language, user, text

17+, violence, self, video

18+, unmoderated content, user, text

13+, drug themes, self, audio

and so on...

mjevans 1 hour ago|||
No - Kid friendly should be something site's Attest to and claim they ARE. That becomes an FTC enforceable market claim (or insert other thing here).

Foreign sites, places that aren't trying to publish things for children? The default state should be unrated content for consumers (adults) prepared to see the content they asked for.

c22 1 hour ago||
Okay...

0+, kid friendly, self, interactive content

struant 2 hours ago||||
Just say the whole internet is not for kids without adult supervision and leave it at that.

It doesn't even matter if you can get something that technically works. Half the "age appropriate" content targeted at children is horrifying brainrot. Hardcore pornography would be less damaging to them.

Just supervise your damn children people.

glenpierce 26 minutes ago|||
This gets complicated when you need to start giving your kids some degree of independence. I would also argue this could be implemented in a more accessibility-oriented approach.

Also, not all 13-year-olds are of equal level of maturity/content appropriate material. I find it very annoying that I can’t just set limits like: no drug-referencing but idgaf about my kid hearing swear words.

On other machines: I do not want certain content to ever be displayed on my work machine. I’d like to have the ability to set that. Someone who has specific background may not want to see things like: children in danger. This could even be applied to their Netflix algorithm. The website: does the dog die, does a good job of categorizing these kinds of content.

cowboylowrez 1 hour ago|||
yep, 18+, show id at the time of purchasing access soooo easy and zero technical issues.
duskwuff 1 hour ago||||
Other advantages include:

- It's much easier for web sites to implement, potentially even on a page-by-page basis (e.g. using <meta> tags).

- It doesn't disclose whether the user is underage to service providers.

- As mentioned, it allows user agents to filter content "on their own terms" without the server's involvement, e.g. by voluntarily displaying a content warning and allowing the user to click through it.

wiml 1 minute ago||
This exact method was implemented back around the turn of the century by RSAC/ICRA. I think only MSIE ever looked at those tags. But it seems like they met the stated goal of today's age-verification proposals.

That's why I have a hard time crediting the theory that today's proposals are just harmlessly clueless and well intentioned (as dynm suggests). There are many possible ways to make a child-safe internet and it's been a concern for a long time. But, just in the last year there are simultaneous pushes in many regions to enact one specific technique which just happens to pipe a ton of money to a few shady companies, eliminate general purpose computing, be tailor made for social control and political oppression, and on top of that, it isn't even any better at keeping porn away from kids! I think Hanlon's razor has to give way to Occam's here; malice is the simpler explanation.

user3939382 2 hours ago|||
Internet Explorer had content ratings back in the day
AnthonyMouse 1 hour ago||
The "problem" back then was that nothing required sites to provide a rating and most of them didn't. Then you didn't have much of a content rating system, instead you effectively had a choice for what to do with "unrated" sites where if you allow them you allow essentially the whole internet and if you block them you might as well save yourself some money by calling up your ISP to cancel.

This could pretty easily be solved by just giving sites some incentive to actually provide a rating.

asdff 1 hour ago|||
As others have said, the goal is the surveillance. But this notion goes further than that. So many ills people face in life can be solved by just not doing something. Addicted to something? Just stop. Fat? Stop eating. Getting depressed about social media? Stop browsing.

Some people have enough self control to do that and quit cold turkey. Other people don't even consciously realize what they are doing as they perform that maladaptive action without any thought at all, akin to scratching a mosquito bite.

If someone could figure out why some people are more self aware than others, a whole host of the worlds problems would be better understood.

KoolKat23 2 hours ago|||
I have not once seen a proposal actually contain zero knowledge proof. This isn't something exotic or difficult. It is clear to me there is ulterior motives, and perhaps a few well meaning folks have been co-opted.
dynm 2 hours ago|||
FWIW, the EU is working on zero-knowledge proofs: https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-mak...

But I strongly prefer my solution!

digiown 1 hour ago|||
A ZKP will work as a base, but the proof mechanism will have to be combined with anti-user measures like device attestation to prevent things like me offering an API to continually sign requests for strangers. You can rate-limit it, or you can add an identifier, both of which makes it not zero knowledge.

Parent's proposal is better in that it would only take away general purpose computing from children rather than from everyone. A sympathetic parent can also allow it anyway, just like how a parent can legally provide a teen with alcohol in most places. As a society we generally consider that parents have a right to decide which things are appropriate for their children.

KoolKat23 29 minutes ago||
Honestly I think no measure is and should be perfect. It's completely disproportionate. If there's a will there's a way.
rolph 1 hour ago|||
it may be simple to sleuth out over time kid status or not, but i would be very uncomfortable with a tag that verifies kid status instantly no challenges, as it would provide a targeting vector, and defeat safety.
OutOfHere 1 hour ago|||
It has nothing much to do with kids and everything to do with monitoring and suppressing adults.
ImHereToVote 1 hour ago|||
You are assuming good faith. This is why you are puzzled.
sublinear 2 hours ago||
I completely agree. The problem is the lack of compromise on both sides of the issue.

I wouldn't say it's a lack of understanding, but that any compromise is seen as weakness by other members of their party. That needs to end.

dwedge 3 hours ago||
It's tiring how legislation like this is becoming predictable and feels inevitable. This article even mentions the verification needing to be embedded in the operating system itself, spelling the death of open computing
sixtyj 2 hours ago||
Some people have been saying for so long that you should need a license to use the internet, and now that we have it, it's a little different than we intended :(
rockskon 2 hours ago|||
We don't have it yet and there is still time to head this off. Not much time - but still time! Talk to your federal lawmakers and state AG's office!
mothballed 2 hours ago|||
I'd argue it's more like KYC for the internet. Something HN users have brutally and ruthlessly defended for banking every time I argue it's a 4A violation (in fact, it's one of the most fiercely defended things anytime I bring it up).

Give in 20+ years and you'll be called a kook for thinking otherwise.

kbelder 1 hour ago|||
KYC is one of the greatest government overreaches in the last several decades. I'll back you up on that.
tired-turtle 2 hours ago|||
Can you explain the connection between KYC in banking and the Fourth Amendment? How does KYC constitute a government search/seizure?
mothballed 2 hours ago||
The government requires the bank to search your identity documents to open an account, even when there is no individualized suspicion you've broken the law as to why your papers need to be searched, as part of the KYC regulations passed post 9/11. Technically it's not in the statute that they actually search your documents, but rather enforced through a byzantine series of federal regulatory frameworks that basically require them to do something that approximates "industry standard" KYC compliance which ends up being, verifying the customer through inspecting their identity and perhaps other documents. This is why i.e. when I was homeless even my passport couldn't open an account anywhere -- they wanted my passport plus some document showing an address to satisfy KYC requirements.

Maybe I will have more energy for it tomorrow, I've been through this probably a couple dozen times on HN and I don't have the energy to go through the whole rigmarole today because usually it results in 2-3 days of someone fiercely disagreeing down some long chain and in the end I provide all the evidence and by that point no one is paying attention and it just goes into this pyrrhic victory where I get drained dry just for no one to give a shit. I should probably consolidate it into a blog post or something.

DennisP 1 hour ago|||
Fwiw I lean to your side and would be interesting in reading what you have to say about it.
sneak 1 hour ago|||
I’d happily host that blog. Contact info is in my profile.
brandensilva 2 hours ago|||
It isn't a coincidence we have two Palantir articles on the front page and this. It's in the cards and American's seem to be ignoring it and are more than happy to accept the dystopian future where this leads.

It's incredibly sad as an optimistic person trying to find any silver lining here.

latency-guy2 2 hours ago|||
Bad actors like --

William Tong, Anne E. Lopez, Dave Yost, Jonathan Skrmetti, Gwen Tauiliili-Langkilde, Kris Mayes, Tim Griffin, Rob Bonta, Phil Weiser, Kathleen Jennings, Brian Schwalb, Christopher M. Carr, Kwame Raoul, Todd Rokita, Kris Kobach, Russell Coleman, Liz Murrill, Aaron M. Frey, Anthony G. Brown, Andrea Joy Campbell, Dana Nessel, Keith Ellison, Lynn Fitch, Catherine L. Hanaway, Aaron D. Ford, John M. Formella, Jennifer Davenport, Raúl Torrez, Letitia James, Drew H. Wrigley, Gentner Drummond, Dan Rayfield, Dave Sunday, Peter F. Neronha, Alan Wilson, Marty Jackley, Gordon C. Rhea, Derek Brown, Charity Clark, and Keith Kautz

--

Always operate under the assumption that the people serve the state, not the other way around. There are some names in that list that are outwardly infamous of this behavior, and none are surprising considering what type of person looks to be an AG. Maybe fighting fire with fire is appropriate - no such thing as a private life for any of these people, all their communications are open to the public 100% of the time and there are precisely 0 instances where it is not the case. It's only fair considering that is what their goal is for everyone not of the state.

plagiarist 2 hours ago|||
Poettering will help get us remote attestation on Linux so we won't have to switch to Windows when it dies.
halJordan 2 hours ago||
It's already the law in California. I don't remember any outrage here when it was passed there.
rockskon 2 hours ago||
No it isn't. There is no law in California that mandates showing an ID to see ambiguously-defined adult content.
rockskon 2 hours ago||
If this really bothers you, talk to your state AG's office and your federal lawmaker

The worst that can happen is you don't change things.

The best? Maybe you'll find a receptive ear. Your lawmaker stops co-sponsoring KOSA. Your state AG stops pushing for it.

rolph 2 hours ago||
i think the worst that can happen is you could be put on a list of dissention.
rockskon 2 hours ago|||
A list of people who dissent to KOSA is not a bad list to be on as a constituent.

You need to make it easier for your lawmakers to be on that list too. Show them there's people who won't rake them over the coals for bowing out.

hammock 2 hours ago||||
Isn’t that the point? Our lawmakers keep track of how many constituents approve or disapprove of pending legislation so they can act accordingly
rolph 1 hour ago||
so they can act accordingly is the variable, a simple headcount is one thing, but when it creeps like a census, then it is prone to polyusary.

putting the consiracy hat on, the exploit is to direct as many installed AGs to push for such bills, with no big letdown if they dont pass, why/because, the demographics on dissention are valuable and are, passed to a hostile federal government.

Trasmatta 1 hour ago||||
Don't comply in advance
rockskon 2 hours ago|||
Being active about KOSA won't get you put on a "list of dissenters". This is an issue being pushed by the States and your federal lawmakers, not the executive branch.
mothballed 2 hours ago||
Just as a note, federal officials are retaliating against those providing respectful comment on policy.[]

So the worst that can happen could be worse than nothing.

[] https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/department-of-homeland-s...

rockskon 2 hours ago||
Did I say to provide feedback to the Trump administration - an entity that has not made an official stance on this matter?

No.

I said your state Attorney General's office and your elected federal Senators and members of the House.

So I reiterate - the worst that can happen is you don't change where things have been going to.

The best? Your elected officials bow out of this.

fluidcruft 2 hours ago||
Would this mean spammers and advertisers cannot send me email and ads if I refuse to allow my mailbox to authenticate my age to them?
rootsudo 2 hours ago||
RIP Internet. I don't agree with any of this, but I don't see the majority of people protesting this. If anything, promotion it because: Think of the children.

"Many social media platforms deliberately target minors, fueling a nationwide youth mental health crisis."

". These platforms are intentionally designed to be addictive, particularly for underaged users, and generate substantial profits by monetizing minors’ personal data through targeted advertising. These companies fail to adequately disclose the addictive nature of their products or the well-documented harms associated with excessive social media use. Increasing evidence demonstrates that these companies are aware of the adverse mental health consequences imposed on underage users, yet they have chosen to persist in these practices. Accordingly, many of our Offices have initiated investigations and filed lawsuits against Meta and TikTok for their role in harming minors. "

Yet, the comapnies aren't being regulated, nor the algorithims, the marketing or even the existence. It's the users that are the problem therefore everyone has to submit their Identity to use the Internet if this passes.

Pikamander2 1 hour ago||
> 40 State Attorneys General Want To Tie Online Access to ID

Here's the actual title of the article, which is much more concerning than the HN title.

shevy-java 2 hours ago||
They want to sniff after everyone. The "omg terrorists" or "omg children" is the lie.
_heimdall 2 hours ago||
And why wouldn't a state attorney want this? I expect cops would also like blanket warrants usable whenever they deem necessary.

That doesn't mean they should get what they might want, or that its Constitutional.

pdonis 1 hour ago|
Instead of lobbying for taking away everyone's privacy, why isn't the government going after those they say are the actual culprits? From the article:

"The attorneys general argue that social media companies deliberately design products that draw in underage users and monetize their personal data through targeted advertising. They contend that companies have not adequately disclosed addictive features or mental health risks and point to evidence suggesting firms are aware of adverse consequences for minors."

Okay, so why aren't they going after the social media companies?

cadamsdotcom 1 hour ago|
They are in some other democracies. We will see how it all plays out.
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