Top
Best
New

Posted by kevinak 3 hours ago

Be wary of Bluesky(kevinak.se)
98 points | 68 comments
runako 3 hours ago|
When reading any essay about the perils & merits of Bluesky's architecture, save yourself some time by searching for "Blacksky" in the post. If they don't address Blacksky, more than likely the author's understanding of the space has major gaps.

(Blacksky is the/one of the furthest along in building competing versions of each part of the AT proto stack.)

kevinak 3 hours ago||
I know very well what it is, it doesn’t change anything in the grand scheme of things. I wish it did!
runako 1 hour ago||
Re-reading my reply, it is worded more harshly than I intended. My apologies.

I do think it's a critical omission to not address the main player(s?) who are working on key parts of this, and where they may yet run into problems.

api 2 hours ago||
Does it require people change defaults? If so then 99% will never use it.

A system or protocol is whatever the easiest user journey is. Anything outside of that will never be seen by many users unless there is some value to be gained by going there. And that value has to be something gained now, not a hypothetical like insurance against future closing of the network. People don’t like to buy insurance.

dangond 3 hours ago||
I might be misunderstanding something about atproto, but isn't it always possible to export data from bluesky because all it takes is reading your data, which is done by any app interacting with your pds anyway? If they block that, they're blocking atproto functionality entirely, no?
8organicbits 2 hours ago|
> If they block that, they're blocking atproto functionality entirely, no?

Keep in mind, twitter got rid of their API. Google got rid of XMPP federation. Bluesky breaking or defederating atproto wouldn't impact most users, so they'd probably get less outcry than those examples.

https://support.google.com/code/answer/55703?hl=en

vvpan 2 hours ago||
> At every layer, the answer is "anyone can run their own." At every layer, almost nobody does.

But people do and it is reportedly fairly easy so the majority of people are on Bluesky's layers while all is well. But also I don't understand why any of this is a reason to be "wary", it's a great place to be with some unique technical properties - it is way more "open" than any other platform of similar scale.

bo1024 37 minutes ago|
> But people do and it is reportedly fairly easy so the majority of people are on Bluesky's layers while all is well.

The post discusses why, when all is not well, it will be too late.

AgentME 3 hours ago||
Bluesky is architected so you can export your data and follows and followers to your own or someone else's infrastructure at any time. There are some groups that have taken that offer and moved off of Bluesky's infrastructure (see Blacksky). The fact that most people aren't doing that is a sign that people are happy with how Bluesky-the-company is running things. What's the issue?
kevinak 3 hours ago||
Most people were happy with Twitter as well
AgentME 3 hours ago||
And Bluesky is better because you're not locked in and can export your posts, follows, and followers off of their infrastructure if they start being evil or you randomly feel like it. Companies like Twitter effectively wield network effects to stop people from leaving. All of one's activity on Twitter increases the sunk cost to keep them on Twitter in a way that's not true for Bluesky.
mh- 1 hour ago||
I don't have a horse in this race, but:

> [..] machine-readable archive of information associated with your account in HTML and JSON files. [..] including your profile information, your posts, your Direct Messages, your Moments, your media ([..]), a list of your followers, a list of accounts that you are following, your address book, Lists that you’ve created, are a member of or follow, [..], and more.

(Note that I actually elided some additional things that are included in the export, for readability's sake.)

https://help.x.com/en/managing-your-account/accessing-your-x...

AgentME 1 hour ago||
You can't actually use your followers and following list from X on other sites. With Bluesky, you can move your profile onto other infrastructure, continue to see posts from people you follow, and make new posts that your followers still see like nothing happened. It's like how if you own your own domain name, you can set your MX records to whatever email service you want and change it when you want without affecting anyone you're having email conversations with.
mh- 1 hour ago||
Ah, I see. Your use of the term "export" made me misunderstand. Though now that I've thought about it for a few minutes, I'm not sure what verb makes sense [to me] there. I guess "migrate?"

edit: also, thanks for clarifying!

zem 1 hour ago||
whether you agree or not, asking "what's the issue" misses the point very badly, since the article is almost entirely about what the issue is (i.e. that most people will not change defaults and the default is to centralise on the bluesky servers)
AgentME 1 hour ago|||
The fact that the system is built around this escape hatch makes it miles better than almost all other social networks. An escape hatch doesn't need to be used by most people to be valuable.
AlienRobot 1 hour ago|||
It's weird to focus on that when there isn't a single thing in software that doesn't suffer from "everyone will just use the default anyway"
zem 1 hour ago||
yeah I'm not saying the blog is right or wrong; I'm just saying that describing bsky's features and asking "what's the issue?" means you aren't engaging with what it's actually saying.
jmull 1 hour ago||
I’m not the previous poster, but I don’t see any cogent points in the article to engage with in any depth.
shablulman 2 hours ago||
It’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of a fresh social graph, especially when the migration feels so organic. However, the author makes a poignant point about the inherent tension in building a protocol while simultaneously acting as its primary, VC-backed gatekeeper.

The real test for the AT Protocol will be whether it can truly decouple from Bluesky PBC before the pressures of monetization or an exit strategy kick in. Right now, we’re benefiting from the "honeymoon phase" of a platform that needs growth more than revenue, but history suggests that the bridge to true decentralization needs to be fully built before that dynamic inevitably shifts.

Retr0id 3 hours ago||
There doesn't seem to be a timestamp associated with this article, but it is based on outdated information.
kevinak 3 hours ago|
How so?

I should add a time stamp to the blog.

theturtletalks 2 hours ago||
>> You can self-host a PDS. Almost nobody does.

Who would've thought true decentralization means everyone hosting their own server? Yes, each user would have to pay and maintain it, but that's the cost of decentralization. ATProto at least makes it easy to jump ship if shit hits the fan and not have to start from scratch. Try doing that with Twitter/Instagram/Etc.

jeswin 38 minutes ago||
True p2p is the only approach that will work, not federation. I'd go futher and make the protocol high-friction for federation.

It's true that many p2p attempts have failed, but it's also the only solution that doesn't require someone running servers for free. There's evidence of success as well: napster (and bittorrent). Both were wildly successful, and ultimately died because of legal issues. It might work when the data is yours to share.

throwaway0665 30 minutes ago|
I can't imagine a world where a p2p social network is practical. Not when each node is an unreliable mobile phone that's maybe on cellular. Even with something like ipfs you have pinning services, bittorrent has seed boxes, because pure p2p is impractical.
icehawk 2 hours ago||
> That's the same argument people made about Twitter. "If it goes bad, we'll just leave." We know how that played out.

Yeah, it played out with my whole social circle leaving, as evidenced by the fact that all my friends link me to the bluesky post whenever there's something happening now.

wmf 2 hours ago|
There are specific steps Bluesky could take to decentralize the network. These are going to sound extreme but I agree with the article that it will never decentralize on its own. (Nothing will ever decentralize on its own so this isn't a criticism of Bluesky specifically.)

1. Strongly encourage backups.

2. Force users to migrate off the "official" PDS until it has less than, say, 40% market share.

3. Make the mobile apps use third-party relay/appview by default (could be randomized).

More comments...