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Posted by grubbs 5 hours ago

Personal Statement of a CIA Analyst(antipolygraph.org)
105 points | 62 comments
fmajid 8 minutes ago|
Polygraphs are junk science. I wonder why they haven’t graduated to fMRI. Can’t be for lack of funds. My guess is the polygraph bureaucracy is what’s known in Washington as a self-licking ice cream cone.
singleshot_ 1 hour ago||
> but I wondered why a petty thief thought she could get into the Agency.

It’s reassuring to know no one at the CIA has ever done anything wrong, like stealing fifty dollars.

delichon 43 minutes ago|
Knowing someone had committed petty theft is at least a red flag. I can't blame an employer for considering it disqualifying when they have many equally qualified candidates without it. Even for a burger flipper, let alone a secret agent.
unsnap_biceps 29 seconds ago|||
We know nothing about the situation. It's entirely possible that the person took $50 from their parent's purse as a child.
JCattheATM 1 minute ago|||
> Knowing someone had committed petty theft is at least a red flag.

Not really, since everyone has done so. Even you.

Not getting caught for it on the other hand could be a positive.

b00ty4breakfast 1 hour ago||
I'm always surprised to hear that a government agency administers polygraph tests in something as serious as hiring but then I remember the CIA also spent millions of dollars trying to develop telekinetic assassins and train clairvoyants to spy on the Kremlin.
delichon 31 minutes ago||
The polygraph doesn't have to emit any useful data at all to be very useful in interrogations. Like a bomb doesn't have to have any explosive in it to clear a building. Interrogation is a head game and a complicated box with knobs and buttons and maybe even blinking lights makes a fine prop.

And there's enough ambiguity in it that it's easy for the operator to believe it helps. Like a dowser with their rods, a clergyman with a holy book or an astrologist with a horoscope. That gives them the power boost of sincerity.

XorNot 43 minutes ago||
That research was oriented towards making sure it wasn't possible though.

You're saying "of course it isn't" - but how do you know that?

At the time the Soviets had the same sort of projects. So until you're sure it's not possible, the potential capability is an enormous threat if it is.

How they went about that research is where the waste creeps in.

endominus 6 minutes ago||
> General Brown: So they started doing psy-research because they thought we were doing psy-research, when in fact we weren't doing psy-research?

> Brigadier General Dean Hopgood: Yes sir. But now that they are doing psy-research, we're gonna have to do psy-research, sir. We can't afford to have the Russian's leading the field in the paranormal.

Source: The Men Who Stare at Goats

ifh-hn 2 hours ago||
I've no idea why I read to the end of that, seems like a long ramble, I kept expecting something to happen and it never did.
tokenless 41 minutes ago||
He is a good writer. I also read to end and my attention span isn't good! I think the switching between what happened, what he felt and just the plain "daily WTF" rediculousness of the situations is what kept me locked in.
alansaber 2 hours ago|||
This was how I felt about reading War and Peace
UncleOxidant 2 hours ago|||
tl;dr: polygraphs aren't reliable and can be misused?
breve 1 hour ago|||
It's not that they're unreliable, they simply don't work in the first place.

The misuse is that they're used at all.

tokenless 40 minutes ago|||
And they are performed interrogation style but cannot be refused without risking your career.

OTOH, someone arrested can (probably should?) refuse.

Drupon 1 hour ago||
"One of the most evil organizations in the world responsible for untold human misery treats its employees and applicants badly :( :( :("

That was all that was in there. Just complaining from someone that was salty they might have missed their chance at playing with the infant annihilator gun in South America.

Arainach 35 minutes ago||
I applied for an internship with the NSA. My understanding of the process (years ago, pre-Snowden) was that they did a pass on your resume (I can't recall if there was even a phone screen), then they started background checks and if there were N internships the first N people to pass the security clearance were selected.

They went through the standard stuff, interviewing my neighbors, etc. Then they flew me to Fort Meade for a polygraph. This article matches my experiences well - the interviewers latched on to arbitrary accusations and threw them at you over and over. I walked out feeling absolutely miserable and the examiner still claiming I was hiding past crimes and drug use (nope, I confessed to everything all the way down to grabbing coins out of the fountain at the mall when I was quite young). My interviewer said some large percentage of people fail their first and most pass the second.

...except there was no second, because shortly after I passed an interview and got an internship at a large tech company that paid significantly more and didn't require me to take a polygraph. No regrets on that decision.

ddtaylor 1 hour ago||
I watched at Derbycon multiple times someone that could make a polygraph test do whatever he wanted, otherwise he was a murderer that murdered himself and it all happened before he was born. The test was being administered by a long time veteran polygraph operator who had recently retired.
tptacek 1 hour ago|
I don't know what that means, because a polygraph by design tells the polygrapher whatever they want it to.
c22 54 minutes ago||
If the demonstration was performed in some blinded protocol then perhaps there was more room for ambiguity in the results than usual.
Animats 1 hour ago||
I went through national-security polygraph exams twice, and they were no big deal. Filling out SF-86 (which used to start "List all residences from birth"), now that's a hassle.

In my aerospace company days, almost everything I did was unclassified, but I was put through the mill of getting higher level security clearances so I could be assigned to classified projects. Fortunately, I never was.

AndrewStephens 55 minutes ago||
> I was put through the mill of getting higher level security clearances so I could be assigned to classified projects. Fortunately, I never was.

Sure was lucky you didn’t work on any of those classified projects - <wink>

Animats 19 minutes ago||
The company had decided to move networking R&D to Colorado Springs, where they supported USAF facilities, and I didn't want to leave Silicon Valley for that.
jMyles 1 hour ago||
I'm curious about how "residence" is defined for this purpose (and for many purposes). Often it's just presumed that people will know what a "residence" is, but I've lived many years of my life houseless, including on a skoolie.

I never know what to say about my residence. Even now, I own a house, but I don't consider it my home, at least not all the time. Have a specific "residence" presumes that there's one set of coordinates on earth that is canonical for each human, but many people don't live this way.

Is there a definition that cuts through this?

relaxing 46 minutes ago||
90 days living there is the threshold.

You wouldn’t make a good candidate for a national security job, not that it sounds like you want to be. Investigators would want to know who you’d been associating with at all those different places, and tracking it all down would take a long time ( the wait for the investigation can be years, the period during which you’d be unhireable for the job you were going after.)

jMyles 33 minutes ago||
...I think I'd make a great candidate for a national security job, if the job meant the security of the nation rather than the security of the state.

But I take your point of course. :-)

zenon_paradox 4 hours ago||
The most troubling aspect of these accounts is the "unfalsifiable" nature of the countermeasure accusation. Once an examiner decides you’re manipulating your physiological response, there is no empirical way to prove you weren't. It essentially turns a high-stakes job interview into a test of how well you can suppress natural stress reactions. It’s a shame to see how many talented individuals are sidelined by a process that prizes a specific physiological profile over a demonstrated record of integrity.
shevy-java 2 hours ago||
> countermeasures such as butt-clenching

Ehm ...

I am actually not that convinced of that, largely because e. g. the KGB operated quite differently. And it seems very strange to me that the CIA would train an army of wanna-be's as ... butt-clenching recruits. The more sensible option is to have a poker face; and totally believe in any lie no matter how and what. That's kind of what Sergey Lavrov does. He babbles about how Ukraine invaded Russia. Kind of similar to a certain guy with a moustache claiming Poland invaded Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident).

BoredPositron 2 hours ago|
It's not butt clenching it's Kegels you just say butt clenching because it's funny.
Paracompact 3 hours ago|
Am I a bad person if the picture of someone in the CIA crying is funny to me? Not out of malice or anything. It's just something I didn't know they did.

Do they also have little "Hang in there!" posters on the wall, too?

airstrike 2 hours ago||
Not a bad person, just lacking in wisdom.
marxisttemp 2 hours ago||
Not really
eru 3 hours ago|||
It's a bureaucracy like any other.
bitwize 2 hours ago|||
The movie Spy (2015) is probably the most accurate, realistic version of the CIA in cinema, replete with celebratory cakes for supervisors' birthdays and crumbling infrastructure due to insufficient funding.
Paracompact 1 hour ago||
How do you know it's realistic?
stego-tech 3 hours ago|||
Not bad, just as misinformed as most folks out there about the process and requirements.

National Security is a PITA, full of cutthroat sociopaths who would eat the SV VC-types for breakfast. That is a compliment, because the work they do is broadly dark and grimly necessary, at least at the levels of global geopolitics a lot of them are expected to operate at. I washed out in contracting for much the same reason this person kept "failing" polygraphs: honesty to the point of external perceptions of naivety. The types who excel in these sectors see folks like us as doormats or tissues, and react poorly when we catch them in the act and demand anything resembling respect because they know we're a threat to the entire establishment if we're allowed to succeed.

The point of polygraphs has always been about control, and folks who resist that sort of control are incidentally highlighting themselves as being uncontrollable to power alone. The books the author links are excellent starting points for understanding the true function of a polygraph, and why more places are outlawing them as a means of trying to diversify a deeply broken and hostile security apparatus by preventing it from being a "blind fools and sociopaths-only" club.

Paracompact 1 hour ago||
It would seem there's a spectrum of beliefs regarding the people in the CIA, the FBI, in politics, etc. ranging from "They're just like us!" to "They're lizard people (for better or for worse)." In other words, is it the situation or is it the person/self-selection? I self-identify as uninformed about the bigger picture, but my experience working in a federally adjacent sector where all my colleagues are perfectly normal, and yet there is always above us the stench of lizardry in the decisions being made, has me believing in the hypothesis that every bureaucracy is largely staffed with normal people doing the legwork (sometimes very high level, high paying, and highly consequential legwork), and lizards controlling the brain at the management and director levels.

> I washed out in contracting for much the same reason this person kept "failing" polygraphs: honesty to the point of external perceptions of naivety.

I'm curious if you're willing to elaborate on this story. So far in my career I've yet been forced to bend my knee to a lizard, nor become one, but it sounds like you have some experience.

SpaceL10n 2 hours ago||
I would use this information to reflect.
Paracompact 1 hour ago||
How do you mean? I don't look down on anyone.
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