Posted by vinhnx 23 hours ago
There's no winner for "least amount of code written regardless of productivity outcomes.", except for maybe Anthropic's bank account.
Yesterday I had Claude write an audit logging feature to track all changes made to entities in my app. Yeah you get this for free with many frameworks, but my company's custom setup doesn't have it.
It took maybe 5-10 minutes of wall-time to come up with a good plan, and then ~20-30 min for Claude implement, test, etc.
That would've taken me at least a day, maybe two. I had 4-5 other tasks going on in other tabs while I waited the 20-30 min for Claude to generate the feature.
After Claude generated, I needed to manually test that it worked, and it did. I then needed to review the code before making a PR. In all, maybe 30-45 minutes of my actual time to add a small feature.
All I can really say is... are you sure you're using it right? Have you _really_ invested time into learning how to use AI tools?
Fast forward to today and I tried the tools again--specifically Claude Code--about a week ago. I'm blown away. I've reproduced some tools that took me weeks at full-time roles in a single day. This is while reviewing every line of code. The output is more or less what I'd be writing as a principal engineer.
The problem is LLMs are great at simple implementation, even large amounts of simple implementation, but I've never seen it develop something more than trivial correctly. The larger problem is it's very often subtly but hugely wrong. It makes bad architecture decisions, it breaks things in pursuit of fixing or implementing other things. You can tell it has no concept of the "right" way to implement something. It very obviously lacks the "senior developer insight".
Maybe you can resolve some of these with large amounts of planning or specs, but that's the point of my original comment - at what point is it easier/faster/better to just write the code yourself? You don't get a prize for writing the least amount of code when you're just writing specs instead.
The original article is, to me, seemingly not that novel. Not because it's a trite example, but because I've begun to experience massive gains from following the same basic premise as the article. And I can't believe there's others who aren't using like this.
I iterate the plan until it's seemingly deterministic, then I strip the plan of implementation, and re-write it following a TDD approach. Then I read all specs, and generate all the code to red->green the tests.
If this commenter is too good for that, then it's that attitude that'll keep him stuck. I already feel like my projects backlog is achievable, this year.
This is 100% incorrect, but the real issue is that the people who are using these llms for non-trivial work tend to be extremely secretive about it.
For example, I view my use of LLMs to be a competitive advantage and I will hold on to this for as long as possible.
Does it write maintainable code? Does it write extensible code? Does it write secure code? Does it write performant code?
My experience has been it failing most of these. The code might "work", but it's not good for anything more than trivial, well defined functions (that probably appeared in it's training data written by humans). LLMs have a fundamental lack of understanding of what they're doing, and it's obvious when you look at the finer points of the outcomes.
That said, I'm sure you could write detailed enough specs and provide enough examples to resolve these issues, but that's the point of my original comment - if you're just writing specs instead of code you're not gaining anything.
But the aha moment for me was what’s maintainable by AI vs by me by hand are on different realms. So maintainable has to evolve from good human design patterns to good AI patterns.
Specs are worth it IMO. Not because if I can spec, I could’ve coded anyway. But because I gain all the insight and capabilities of AI, while minimizing the gotchas and edge failures.
How do you square that with the idea that all the code still has to be reviewed by humans? Yourself, and your coworkers
So maybe it's that we won't be reviewing by hand anymore? I.e. it's LLMs all the way down. Trying to embrace that style of development lately as unnatural as it feels. We're obv not 100% there yet but Claude Opus is a significant step in that direction and they keep getting better and better.
yes, if I steer it properly.
It's very good at spotting design patterns, and implementing them. It doesn't always know where or how to implement them, but that's my job.
The specs and syntactic sugar are just nice quality of life benefits.
The compounding is much greater than my brain can do on its own.
But did you truly think about such feature? Like guarantees that it should follow (like how do it should cope with entities migration like adding a new field) or what the cost of maintaining it further down the line. This looks suspiciously like drive-by PR made on open-source projects.
> That would've taken me at least a day, maybe two.
I think those two days would have been filled with research, comparing alternatives, questions like "can we extract this feature from framework X?", discussing ownership and sharing knowledge,.. Jumping on coding was done before LLMs, but it usually hurts the long term viability of the project.
Adding code to a project can be done quite fast (hackatons,...), ensuring quality is what slows things down in any any well functioning team.
Some things are complex.
You could've been curious and ask why it would take 1-2 days, and I would've happily told you.
I wanted to add audit logging for all endpoints we call, all places we call the DB, etc. across areas I haven't touched before. It would have taken me a while to track down all of the touchpoints.
Granted, I am not 100% certain that Claude didn't miss anything. I feel fairly confident that it is correct given that I had it research upfront, had multiple agents review, and it made the correct changes in the areas that I knew.
Also I'm realizing I didn't mention it included an API + UI for viewing events w/ pretty deltas
I think the method in TFA is overall less stressful for the dev. And you can always fix it up manually in the end; AI coding vs manual coding is not either-or.
That said, if you're on a serious team writing professional software there is still tons of value in always telling AI to plan first, unless it's a small quick task. This post just takes it a few steps further and formalizes it.
I find Cursor works much more reliably using plan mode, reviewing/revising output in markdown, then pressing build. Which isn't a ton of overhead but often leads to lots of context switching as it definitely adds more time.
I find the best way to use agents (and I don't use claude) is to hash it out like I'm about to write these changes and I make my own mental notes, and get the agent to execute on it.
Agents don't get tired, they don't start fat fingering stuff at 4pm, the quality doesn't suffer. And they can be parallelised.
Finally, this allows me to stay at a higher level and not get bogged down of "right oh did we do this simple thing again?" which wipes some of the context in my mind and gets tiring through the day.
Always, 100% review every line of code written by an agent though. I do not condone committing code you don't 'own'.
I'll never agree with a job that forces developers to use 'AI', I sometimes like to write everything by hand. But having this tool available is also very powerful.
This new version that I'm doing (from scratch with ChatGPT web) has a far more ambitious scope and is already at the "usable" point. Now I'm primarily solidifying things and increasing test coverage. And I've tested the key parts with IRL scenarios to validate that it's not just passing tests; the thing actually fulfills its intended function so far. Given the increased scope, I'm guessing it'd take me a few months to get to this point on my own, instead of under a week, and the quality wouldn't be where it is. Not saying I haven't had to wrangle with ChatGPT on a few bugs, but after a decent initial planning phase, my prompts now are primarily "Do it"s and "Continue"s. Would've likely already finished it if I wasn't copying things back and forth between browser and editor, and being forced to pause when I hit the message limit.
I recommend to try out Opencode with this approach, you might find it less tiring than ChatGPT web (yes it works with your ChatGPT Plus sub).
This! Once I'm familiar with the codebase (which I strive to do very quickly), for most tickets, I usually have a plan by the time I've read the description. I can have a couple of implementation questions, but I knew where the info is located in the codebase. For things, I only have a vague idea, the whiteboard is where I go.
The nice thing with such a mental plan, you can start with a rougher version (like a drawing sketch). Like if I'm starting a new UI screen, I can put a placeholder text like "Hello, world", then work on navigation. Once that done, I can start to pull data, then I add mapping functions to have a view model,...
Each step is a verifiable milestone. Describing them is more mentally taxing than just writing the code (which is a flow state for me). Why? Because English is not fit to describe how computer works (try describe a finite state machine like navigation flow in natural languages). My mental mental model is already aligned to code, writing the solution in natural language is asking me to be ambiguous and unclear on purpose.