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Posted by toomuchtodo 4 hours ago

Amazon accused of widespread scheme to inflate prices across the economy(www.thebignewsletter.com)
244 points | 77 comments
binarysolo 1 hour ago|
Amazon seller/distributor/agency here; I've been in the space for over a decade.

The title is a little clickbait-y. As far as I understand it:

1. Think of Amazon as a search engine for products. 2. Amazon wants its site to be the lowest-price destination for products. 3. If Amazon finds your product on another website for lower than its own website, it'll just hide your listing from the search -- this is meant to be pro-consumer (when you go to Amazon you'll get the lowest price).

This is where it gets a bit more complicated: 4. Amazon sells ~40% of its goods under its own purchasing arm, known to sellers as Vendor Central. (These are items shipped and sold by Amazon.com). This purchasing arm wants X% margins from *brands, based on whatever their internal targets. From what I've experienced personally -- their terms are generally better than their competitors (Walmart/Target/Costco/Sams), so it's generally a no-brainer to sell directly to them when I can instead of selling direct.

So when 4 has a conflict of interest with #1-3, you get the systemic effect that in order for the sellers to get their **sweet purchase orders from Amazon, they now need to raise prices elsewhere so the purchasing arm gets their cut. The sellers don't HAVE to sell to Amazon, but then they'd miss out on giant POs from Amazon at good terms.

Designing a system to incentivize sellers to have their lowest prices on Amazon... I'm not sure if calling it a "widespread scheme to inflate prices" is the fairest thing.

*edit: Historically, Amazon VC basically ran at near break-even under Jeff, "your margin is my opportunity" and all that. Since Andy took over there's been a reshuffling of chairs and the different business units have different margin requirements now.

**edit2: the price inflation mostly affects big brands that sell 8+ figs/yr on Amazon, because smaller sellers don't get POs from VC (too small to bother).

mitthrowaway2 36 minutes ago||
This doesn't make sense; these days it seems like the majority of products on Amazon can also be found on AliExpress for a third of the price, both of them sold by FWHZHW. From what you're saying, these things should disappear from Amazon's search listings, but in my experience they're the ones promoted straight to the top, and anything else gets buried under that mountain.
binarysolo 22 minutes ago|||
So consider the alternative (because this happened to us): 5-6 years back, one of our brand stores sold a thing (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08DKG3NX7) that created an entire niche of products, and 6 months after our success, a buncha clones came out of the woodwork.

On Amazon, they created listings that imitated our copy and images. On AliExpress/Taobao/etc., they ripped off our images and pretended to be us. Deciding which product/listing is the original product is super nontrivial especially when there's international trademarking and IP law involved.

rjh29 11 minutes ago||||
Agreed. The only explanation is that people don't want to use aliexpress so it's not counted as a direct competitor. If you're prepared to wait even a week, you can get less than 1/3 the price and this has been true for over a decade!
noncoml 26 minutes ago|||
> can also be found on AliExpress for a third of the price, both of them sold by FWHZHW

Am I a conspiracy theorist to believe that Amazon is behind Trump’s decision to end the de minimis?

Guvante 40 minutes ago|||
That isn't lowering prices at all, it is raising prices.
NewJazz 38 minutes ago|||
If Amazon finds your product on another website for lower than its own website, it'll just hide your listing from the search -- this is meant to be pro-consumer (when you go to Amazon you'll get the lowest price)

Yeah, no, this is meant to be pro-Amazon, not pro-consumer.

binarysolo 29 minutes ago||
"Aligned interest"
behringer 35 minutes ago|||
I wish ebay would hide listings that are more expensive than amazon. It's extremely frustrating getting amazon packages from ebay purchases. I make sure to 1 star all of them.
dataflow 1 hour ago||
> Think of Amazon is a search engine for products.

> [Amazon's] own purchasing arm

...so we can't think of Amazon as just "a search engine", right?

You might as well hand someone a toy and say "Think of this as a toy gun. But this is where it gets a bit more complicated: 40% of these have a trigger that shoots bullets." Whom are you kidding?

Clearly with the scheme you described, these are morally two separate entities colluding with each other to use each others' huge powers in the market to raise prices and pocket more profit for themselves.

binarysolo 50 minutes ago||
That is probably part of the court case: does Amazon.com searches favor VC purchasing in any way, shape, or form. This would require disclosure of their algorithm weights and what not, which they would then need to redact so people can't reverse engineer their algos to SEO Amazon's search.

My understanding is they got caught with this in the mid 2010s and as a result had to come very clean on some of this inter-departmental stuff. Most people who've worked at/with Amazon know its fief-like bureaucracy and clean delineation of business units (as both a strength and a weakness), so I'd be curious if there was more to it.

Then the other question would be: if you run a system that has certain emergent behaviors coming from it, without direct collusion -- how much would you be on the hook for various things that do end up happening? It makes sense that Amazon search wants lowest prices on Amazon, and it makes sense that Amazon VC wants margin, so when the two effects result in price inflation is that Amazon's problem.

jimbokun 2 hours ago||
Two things jumped out at me.

1. Average American spends THREE THOUSAND DOLLAR year at Amazon. That’s staggering.

2. As of now the trial is not scheduled to begin until January 2027 (although the discussed injunction is meant to address that). I believe the length of time required to get a decision in court is the single biggest impediment to justice being served. It usually waters down the final judgment, makes costs prohibitive for plaintiffs, and allows perpetrators to continue benefiting from illegal behavior indefinitely. In some cases, the defendant can be elected President in the interim eliminating any chance of facing a court decision.

taurath 1 hour ago||
> 1. Average American spends THREE THOUSAND DOLLAR year at Amazon.

Where else would americans be getting home goods like soap, appliances, electronics? Vitamins, perscriptions, etc?

The answer to almost every one of those, for the vast majority of Americans, is one of like 5 megacorps. Target, Walmart, Kroger, CVS, Amazon. Things have largely stopped being available retail because of all this consolidation. If I want to go buy a multivitamin, its no joke like $25 a bottle at my grocery store, and $8 on amazon. It is just kinda... a part of people's lives now, and the alternatives all involve either spending more money or time.

indecisive_user 2 minutes ago|||
For vitamins/supplements specifically, there's Costco, iHerb, nootropics depot.

While they might not be the absolute cheapest options, they're usually a pretty good price and at least with those sources I'm not too concerned with counterfeit or tainted supplements, unlike Amazon [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20499808

abnercoimbre 1 hour ago|||
It’s funny: a loved one gifted me a book knowing I’m opposed to Amazon’s practices. They let me know they bought it elsewhere and the act of paying more was part of the gift’s charm (they’ll use Amazon otherwise.)
bombcar 48 minutes ago||
I've found that books of all things are usually something you can get for Amazon prices elsewhere.
twoodfin 1 hour ago|||
Average American spends THREE THOUSAND DOLLAR year at Amazon. That’s staggering.

Is it? That’s by households, not individuals. Is it really crazy to imagine a household spending $200-300/month at Costco, Walmart, Whole Foods—or Amazon?

PaulDavisThe1st 1 hour ago|||
I spend $200-300 per week at whole foods, much to my own chagrin and moral discomfort.
twoodfin 1 hour ago||
AFAICT, the numbers Matt’s referencing include Whole Foods so that’s a Whole Foods + Amazon.com $3,000.

Frankly, I think a lot of people have lost perspective on just how rich the average American household is: Around $145k annual income.

Not shocking that Amazon is capturing 2% of that gross.

raw_anon_1111 1 hour ago||
You’re way off the median household income is $80K

https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/

twoodfin 1 hour ago||
Median isn’t the average and Matt was computing the average household Amazon spend.
raw_anon_1111 1 hour ago|||
The mean is almost always a meaningless statistics. It only takes a few people to buy stuff like this to skew it.

http://www.sellersprite.com/en/blog/most-expensive-thing-on-...

twoodfin 1 hour ago||
Be that as it may, the point at issue was the Amazon spending of the average US household. I’m not sure what point relevant to the discussion you’re trying to make, other than reflexively arguing with any use of means in economic analysis. OK, sure, tell Matt Stoller.
cyberax 1 hour ago|||
It actually is for the normal distribution.
bandrami 24 minutes ago|||
Household income is not normally distributed. In fact nothing with a hard zero can be normally distributed.
twoodfin 1 hour ago|||
Sure, but I’m certain US household income is not normally distributed, and I’d bet all the money in my pockets that US household Amazon spend isn’t normally distributed, either.
zippyman55 1 hour ago|||
I spent $3000 at borders bookstore in one year, back in the day. But Amazon gets about $100 a year from me.
HaloZero 11 minutes ago|||
Lol, that sounds about right. I checked, our household spent $2700 last year on amazon. Only 3 things above $100 though, so it's just accumulation of lots of smaller purchases.
raw_anon_1111 1 hour ago|||
This is very bad math on the part of the article. You can’t just take total revenue/number of households. I mean have they not heard of a little side business Amazon has called AWS?

Amazon is not just a US company either.

They also have an ad business. You could rightfully argue that ad spend gets passed on to the consumer.

twoodfin 1 hour ago|||
The number Matt’s quoting doesn’t include AWS, AFAICT. It’s “North American segment” revenue in AMZN accounting. AWS is accounted separately as a global unit.

Though now that I write that, I wonder if Matt divided by the total number of North American households or the number of US ones.

EDIT: Amazon North American segment revenue divided by aggregate North American household count is roughly $2,300. But I’m guessing the real number is closer to Matt’s estimate as US households are wealthier and likely represent a disproportionate fraction of that revenue.

throwaway5465 1 hour ago|||
This is sadly typical arrogant HN commentary jumping off to sound clever, cynically playing on the 'engineer mentality' fallacy, having put no effort to discredit the argumen as witnessed by the now clearly stupid argument presented, yet selfishly putting the onus on others to correct. It's quite sociopathic.
raw_anon_1111 27 minutes ago|||
Would you rather I suffer from Gellman Amnesia?

https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2021/01/18/gell-mann-amnesia/

If you can’t trust someone’s analysis about something you know about, why trust him about something you don’t?

twoodfin 1 hour ago|||
I dunno, going in with the starting assumption that Matt Stoller is innumerate and/or will twist statistics to support his otherwise specious arguments is not a terrible approach.

On the particulars of this number, he seems to be close enough, but it’s not nearly as shocking with any context: The average American household Walmart spend is comparable, Apple captures almost half that with a handful of devices and services.

stogot 1 hour ago|||
The author ignores that a small business shoppers falls in North America retail, so only dividing consumer household is incorrect

My relatives use it for ordering office supplies for their business.

KittenInABox 1 hour ago||
I wouldn't ascribe averages to mean much. I expect there is a small minority that buys everything on amazon (everything meaning groceries, holiday gifts, prescriptions, etc) that would jack up the average significantly.
array4277 2 hours ago||
It is a well-documented fact that Amazon forces it's sellers to "fix" their prices to match the Amazon price. If you sell on Amazon, you're not allowed to sell the same item for less ANYWHERE. This- coupled with Amazon's insane fees- should be a huge red flag to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and maybe a Attorney General can get them to do their damn job and crack down on it... I wouldn't hold my breath though.
mparkms 1 hour ago||
You definitely shouldn't hold your breath considering the CFPB effectively doesn't exist anymore.
mixdup 2 hours ago|||
The biggest mistake we've made is allowing Amazon (and now Walmart) to both be a seller and to operate what is supposed to be an open marketplace

It's insane that the landlord of the mall is also running the biggest store in the mall

It's led to this scheme, but also just the general enshittification of buying things online. You can never trust what you buy from Amazon because their "marketplace sellers" will send you a counterfeit, and it's hard to find some brand names because they don't want to be in that cesspool

As low rent and lowest common denominator as Walmart was in the 90s, at least I could go in and know that a) I probably was getting the lowest price on that Rubbermaid trash can b) it was legitimately a Rubbermaid trashcan and not someone who ripped off the molds, used plastic that was 50% as good, and sells it under the brand Xyxldk, and c) could reasonably expect to find that trashcan offered for sale in the first place

cyberrock 20 minutes ago|||
Doesn't this (except for the counterfeits) apply to Costco too? Is the difference just that Costco never pretended to be an open marketplace, just like how Apple never pretended that iOS is an open system?
BrenBarn 54 minutes ago||||
I think a bigger mistake is just allowing Amazon (and Walmart) to even exist at their current size. There simply shouldn't be any sellers that large, or any marketplace operators that large.
Incipient 1 hour ago||||
EEE
2OEH8eoCRo0 2 hours ago|||
I prefer FUKIDOG brand trashcans
zer00eyz 2 hours ago|||
https://www.forbes.com/sites/errolschweizer/2025/12/18/how-w...

Why amazon sellers have not opened up a class action lawsuit is beyond me. This case, succeed or fail will surface enough documentation that they may find cause.

sethops1 2 hours ago|||
Because Amazon holds all the power and will certainly retaliate. At best such a case could end up in front of a Supreme Court 6-3 in Amazon's favor.
SilverElfin 2 hours ago|||
Small companies and individuals cannot pursue expensive lawsuits. It risks their livelihood while it goes through courts over years. And even if you win other big marketplaces may stop doing business with you. Plus class actions are prohibited in many contractual agreements - you’re forced into individual arbitration. It shouldn’t be legal but that’s normal today.
teeray 2 hours ago||
> Small companies and individuals cannot pursue expensive lawsuits.

The fact that lawsuits are won by whoever has more money and time is so deeply problematic. I have no idea how you’d go about equalizing it. Spending limits with devastating consequences if it can be proven that you broke them?

bitmasher9 1 hour ago|||
Two more ideas

* More juries, and maybe something jury like for civil suits.

* Simplify the law and legal proceedings to the point where the extra time preparing won’t lead to better outcomes.

PaulDavisThe1st 1 hour ago|||
Loser pays legal fees would be one small step in roughly the right direction (though it has its own set of problems too).
SilverElfin 2 hours ago||
This is why Andy Jassy was a big supporter of BLM in the Biden era and is now funding the Melania documentary in the Trump era. Amazon bribes each administration to avoid the law. Many companies do this though, not just them. Companies worth more than a trillion shouldn’t exist, yet here they are corrupting our entire system.
crazygringo 1 hour ago||
> sued Amazon for prohibiting vendors that sold on its website from offering discounts outside of Amazon... to make sure that sellers can’t sell through a different store or even through their own site with a lower price...

First, this is not new. It's been stated policy for years.

Second, manufacturers get around it in a clever way. They always list their items on their own site at the same price as at Amazon... but then magically almost always seem to have a 20% or 25%-off sitewide coupon available, whether it's for first-time customers, or "spinning the wheel" that pops up, etc.

So I don't know how much this is really raising actual prices in the end.

Otherwise, I'm not sure how to feel about it, because pricing contracts are common on both ends. Manufacturers frequently only sell to retailers who promise they won't charge less than the MSRP, and large retailers similarly often require "most-favored-nation" pricing, so they can always claim they have the lowest prices. If you want to end these practices, then it's only fair to have a law prohibiting it across the board, rather than singling out Amazon.

aschla 1 hour ago||
Cancelled my Prime subscription last month after the past year of worsening experiences with Amazon:

Received several orders that were returned items, with broken open packaging and sometimes the item was something else entirely, purely put there for weight by whoever returned it.

When I went to return some things at a major Amazon distribution center, the return area was closed for the week for some sort of construction or renovation, with no indication of that anywhere on the site. The only messaging was a piece of paper in the window once you got there.

At another separate major distribution center, the return area was a small room with pieces of paper taped to a door with an arrow pointing to the Amazon lockers where the returns are accepted.

Orders are now often so delayed that it makes the Prime subscription pointless. Have had multiple orders over the past year that didn't ship for 3 or 4 days.

Amazon listings are almost half Sponsored listings now, and there are unrelated ads on the side of listings.

Half of the listings are some random made-up brand name, like XIJGNU, which is just a Chinese seller selling low-quality products, and when the reviews get bad enough, they re-list the product under another made-up brand name.

Fake reviews were already rampant before LLMs, but now reviews are effectively useless because they are so easy to fake.

BrenBarn 48 minutes ago||
On the one hand, this is good to see. On the other hand, like basically every such thing, it's too late and way, way, too little. It is pointless to try to chip away at Amazon by saying "oh you did this, oh you did that, oh you harmed people this way, oh you cheated this other way". It's like if a house is on fire and you try to stop it from spreading to nearby houses by catching each flying ember individually. You need to put the fire out.

Companies with as much market power as Amazon simply cannot be allowed to exist. It was a mistake to ever allow it and every response that is not aimed at a total shattering of the company is another mistake. No retail business of any kind can ever be safe when companies like Amazon exist. (And although this article is about Amazon, the same is true of many other companies as well, like Walmart.)

jadenPete 1 hour ago||
The article cites Amazon prohibiting sellers from selling their products for less on other platforms as anticompetitive behavior. I don’t doubt that this is happening, nor that it’s anticompetitive.

That being said, anyone who’s operated a two-sided marketplace knows that one of the biggest problems is consumers using your site as an index, and then seeking to dodge your fee by meeting with the seller on another platform, where they don’t have to pay it. This was a big problem for my startup.

This is a negative externality, because they’re extracting value from your platform (the list of sellers, products, prices, ratings, etc.), without paying for that value. If left unchecked, this could make running the platform financially unviable. One way to prevent this is to paywall your platform, but not every consumer wants to pay a subscription.

I think it’d be fair for Amazon to prohibit sellers advertising other platforms on its own, but prohibiting them from offering lower prices outside of Amazon outright definitely seems anticompetitive.

AnthonyMouse 55 seconds ago||
> That being said, anyone who’s operated a two-sided marketplace knows that one of the biggest problems is consumers using your site as an index, and then seeking to dodge your fee by meeting with the seller on another platform, where they don’t have to pay it.

There is a company that operates an index where people can search for things and doesn't charge the site or the customer for things that rank well in organic search results. I think they're called Google. From what I understand they make quite a bit of money by selling ads next to the listings.

That model seems like it would work pretty well here unless there was some kind of major company preventing anyone from offering a lower price than they have on their own site so that everybody goes to their site instead of using a price search engine to find a site with a lower price.

BrenBarn 54 minutes ago||
> If left unchecked, this could make running the platform financially unviable.

Sounds great to me!

graeme 2 hours ago||
I can say how this worked for books. Used to be Amazon didn't enforce their pricing policy. So a bookseller could price their book's list price lower on a different site than on amazon. Amazon would discount to match, but pay the bookseller based on the list price.

It was effectively a way to get an excess commission out of amazon if you printed through their printing arm, Createspace/KDP. Not sure if this worked the same for non print on demand books but if you printed through createspace you could set a higher list price and get royalties that were about 100% of the actual sale price.

No idea if the same mechanic is in play with the FBA rules but it seems very plausible to me that the largest impact is has is closing exploits like this.

That doesn't mean it doesn't also entrench market position, raise a few prices at the margin etc but it's very easy to miss the potential for gaming rules, legally, unless you're actively in the system. If an incentive is there the market incentive will be to use it.

xrd 1 hour ago||
Lina Khan is now in Mamdani's cabinet. Maybe NY state and California can team up on this.
SoftTalker 2 hours ago|
I saw through the Amazon Prime scam about four years ago and canceled my membership. Counterfeit products, obviously returned/resold products, and failure to meet delivery date promises. And prices steadily rising.

I just go to Walmart now. And Walmart is no choir boy either but at least I can see what I'm buying.

bitmasher9 1 hour ago|
A product being on a shelf at a Walmart is a better indicator of quality then anything you could post on an Amazon listing.
crazygringo 50 minutes ago||
Funny, it's the opposite to me.

A product on the shelf, I don't have the slightest idea if it'll break in a month or have a feature that doesn't work right.

When I start browsing Amazon reviews, I feel vastly more confident I know what I'm buying.

Only exception is clothing, since it's next to impossible to judge fit and texture and often even color online.

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