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Posted by surprisetalk 19 hours ago

Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective(worksinprogress.co)
362 points | 515 commentspage 9
farceSpherule 18 hours ago|
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ohgeekz_com 14 hours ago||
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moralestapia 18 hours ago||
Very detailed analysis.

I agree with the claim that "fewer stops, faster service" on the surface.

However we'd have to see if that's truly the case, as cities have red lights and traffic, so the bus stops anyway ... I believe, taking this into account, the difference might not be that significant.

rsynnott 16 hours ago||
There are simulators for this, and of course there's data from places that have actually done it.

In Dublin we have a bit of a mixture of newish bus routes which largely have a sensible number of stops, and ancient routes (the oldest evolved out of tram routes laid out in the 1870s), which tend to have a stupidly high number of stops, because once you put one in it's very contentious to remove it. The super-regular stop routes are _so slow_.

moralestapia 14 hours ago||
In my city there are, so called, express buses, but I haven't seen that anywhere else.
piinbinary 18 hours ago|||
That's an interesting point.

I'm also curious how bus stops interact with timed lights. Presumably each time the bus stops, it gets kicked back to the next cycle of green lights (which might be a low-single-digit minute delay).

Hopefully there's a traffic engineer in the audience who can give the real answers.

johannes1234321 18 hours ago||
The way it is done her ein my European city is that the bus stop is move behind the traffic lights. The bus and the system are in radio contact, thus the position is known. The time the bus needs from current location to the traffic lights on green light can be predicted, thus the system can calculate whether to keep the green light till the bus arrives or turn red, let the crossing traffic go and then turn green for the bus again. The less predictable time of passenger getting off and on (takes time when crowded, wheelchair takes time, but can be fast when nobody requires that stop) is behind the traffic lights, thus doesn't have to go into the calculation.

Of course this has limits on density of traffic lights and traffic isn't fully predictable either, but overall this works quite well, giving busses mostly a green wave.

estebank 15 hours ago|||
The difference between the SF 38 and the 38R which stops 1/3rd as much is 1/4th of the travel time in <5 miles.
mschuster91 18 hours ago|||
> However we'd have to see if that's truly the case, as cities have red lights and traffic, so the bus stops anyway.

Two problems - for one, riders entering and exiting takes time, especially if the public transit scheme says you can only enter at the front and have to show/buy tickets at the driver, and the other problem is that in most areas, buses cannot request a green light, so with a loop time of 1-2 minutes (quite common in German cities on busy roads) you may easily lose 2-3 minutes in the worst case just from a mismatch of departure with the light being green.

And over the course of a few stops, that lost time can add up quickly.

kshacker 18 hours ago||
Imagine stopping at the bus stop and then immediately stopping at red light
IAmBroom 18 hours ago||
I'm guessing you don't live in a city. They plan bus stops at lights, so that doesn't really happen - just sometimes there's an extra-long bus pause for mount/dismount.
kshacker 14 hours ago||
Yes I am not a bus passenger. I have used buses in some US cities over a decade back, and from those rare trips my memories are not aligned with yours. Alright ...
mmooss 18 hours ago||
It ignores the problem of people with difficulty walking, for whom 400 yards is a serious burden, and significantly limits their access to buses. And then think about bad weather, slippery ground, etc.

Many of these people have no other options: If you are elderly or physically limited when you are younger, there's a good chance that wealth is limited, rideshares and taxis are not an option, and if you can't take public transit, you are stuck at home.

Don't think about it as 'today I can't take the bus'. Think about it as, 'for the most part, I can't leave my home/block anymore'.

snjddkkdkd 16 hours ago||
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miltonlost 18 hours ago||
As someone who rides the bus: it's payment that causes slowdowns. Waiting for everyone to get on the front of the bus and tap often takes multiple traffic cycles. If we wanted to treat public transit as a true public good (as it ought to be), it should be funded from taxes and free at point of service, and then front and back can be used. But that'd be too much efficiency and cost the rich too much.

This article feels like he's picking the one lever he can when it's a bad lever. He created a new kind of ethical trolley problem by making it less accessible vs more efficient

lavelganzu 18 hours ago||
There is a downside of making buses free, similar to the experience of cities which stopped enforcing "turnstile hopping" for trains, which is that it attracts a small number of hostile and malicious riders. An advantage of treating transit as a public good means this downside becomes an empirical question, not a moral one: Which approach leads to more ridership? In some cases, enforcing fares leads to more ridership by increasing safety and decreasing the amount of time spent cleaning up befouled surfaces.
miltonlost 16 hours ago|||
Sorry, I don't believe you that what would stop those "hostile and malicious riders" is the $2 fare to hop on.
michaelmrose 17 hours ago|||
Let's use Seattle as an example. We tap orca cards to pay to get on and recently debit cards. This doesn't in fact keep the crazy people from getting on without paying at all. Only cops/security actually prevent this and most of the time we do a whole lot of nothing.

We could offer free ridership but still use orca cards and ban people who misbehave or befoul the place. Whether we keep problem children off appears to be wholly orthogonal.

johannes1234321 18 hours ago|||
That's the argument Mamdani makes to argue to make busses free. Taking the payment away would produce a lot more of reliability.

Over here in my European town this isn't an issue as we have a "trust based system" where tickets are only checked infrequently by spot inspections on the running bus and most people have a monthly pass. So it's just hop on and off.

bluGill 18 hours ago|||
There are a lot of other ways to speed up payment. they are better as well imho
rsynnott 16 hours ago|||
One compromise is to tap inside; some systems do this.
mmooss 18 hours ago||
That is an accepted issue among bus planners. One solution, I think used at least in part of NYC is to pay at the bus stop, before you board. Related is enforcing boarding and paying in front and leaving via the back door, so the leavers don't delay the boarders.
estebank 16 hours ago||
> enforcing boarding and paying in front and leaving via the back door, so the leavers don't delay the boarders.

In my experience, being able to pay at any of the doors increases throughput because people are not bunched up in a single door, neither to get on or off, Parallelizing (and load balancing!) the movement of people. Not having to tap to pay (either because it is free, because monthly passes don't require it or because you can pre-pay at a machine or online) would have some additional time gains at rush hour on popular lines.

giantfrog 18 hours ago||
Libertarian publication run by the wealthy suggests course of action that will disproportionately harm the poor, I’m shocked!
postflopclarity 18 hours ago|
I don't think you read or understood the article if this is your takeaway.
guerrilla 18 hours ago||
This sounds exactly like one of those birds-eye technocratic moves which inevitably destroys the system it tries to fix because of a failure to properly understand it, which nobody really can since it grew organically for actual reasons. Classic nerd overconfidence.
taeric 18 hours ago||
Read differently, the United States needs more of a forcing function to get people to take the bus and less focus on convenience.

You can maybe frame it as this story does that it is the time cost of the stops. This somewhat completely ignores the extra time people would have to walk between the stops, though?

It also completely ignores that Atlanta's metro does target about this distance for bus stops? Which would be a compelling argument against it driving adoption, to be honest.

avazhi 18 hours ago|
People don’t use public transport for many reasons other than this, personal safety and comfort being two big ones that no amount of optimisation can fix.

I’d rather get to work half as quickly if it means I don’t have to listen to a druggie issue schizophrenic violent threats towards random women throughout my journey (occurred just last week on a tram in Melbourne). Other cities I’ve been to and used public transport in (NYC, Portland, San Francisco, Dallas, Sydney) have been just as awful.

All these public policy wonks really do seem to forget that most of us want to get as far away as possible from the psychos that seem to make up an increasing share of society, time and cost be damned.

wat10000 17 hours ago|
Increased ridership can help a lot with that. People typically behave better when there's a large audience.