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Posted by pabs3 7 hours ago

Motorola GrapheneOS devices will be bootloader unlockable/relockable(grapheneos.social)
538 points | 141 comments
fluffypony 21 minutes ago|
I don't want to gush about this too much, but it's SUCH a big deal. Graphene has languished with hardware support for so long - they basically only had Pixel devices as first-class citizens, which are not bad devices per se, but it's hard when you're spending most of your time doing something without the manufacturer's support.

There is a very real possibility that we end up with devices that can play modern mobile games at high frame rates on a secure, privacy-focused mobile OS, which is a huge step towards general adoption of something like this as a daily driver.

monegator 6 minutes ago|
"general" people really play actual games on phones? I thought the general public at most played with time waster freemium games
sandreas 1 hour ago||
If anyone from Motorola is reading this: Please add a smaller device to your Portfolio, about max the size of a Pixel 8. I'm not hoping for an audio jack any more but at least small it could be.

All in all: Thank you for making this possible.

simonmales 3 minutes ago||
The small form factor phones simply do not sell. Some great thoughts on the topic:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9zBsKELVs * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZdbbN3FCzE Not about small form factor, rather enthusiast phones don't last

Currently running a Sony Xperia 5 V which farm factor is acceptable, and still will get a number of months of updates. And the winning point is that the bootloader can be unlocked and is supported by LineageOS.

throwaway81523 28 minutes ago|||
The whole Moto G series has audio jacks, at least as of a year or so ago. I hope that Graphene makes it to those affordable models. I don't need high end cameras or AI on my phone. In fact AI is quite unwanted.
panny 17 minutes ago||
Lol, no, according to graphene, an aux jack is a security problem. So is a microsd. But the hole punch with the camera pointed at your face, that's just fine.

When my current phone dies, I'm basically returning to a dumb phone with a removable battery. Now that Xperia dropped open source, every phone out there is terrible and I just don't want any of them. Anything that would support a ROM has features to make my skin crawl.

sheiyei 10 minutes ago||
It's a shame that modern banking (and communication with my family) needs a smartphone.
amunozo 21 minutes ago||
I was thinking the same thing. My smartphone is reaching the end of its life, and I really like something smaller.
farkanoid 4 hours ago||
Not sure how I feel about this. Motorola seems to be the exclusive provider of encrypted cellular networks and associated devices to the Israeli military [1][2].

I'm under the impression that basebands still require a proprietary/binary blob, basically rendering the security features of the underlying Open Source OS useless, since it sits between the user and outside connectivity.

How can GrapheneOS ensure that there are no hidden backdoors (ie: Pegasus-like spyware, which was created by ex-IDF soldiers via NSO Group), etc, in the baseband?

[1] https://www.whoprofits.org/companies/company/3808

[2] https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/mo...

spaqin 4 hours ago||
In the same way they can(not) do it on Pixel phones - and I would be surprised if Google was not already cooperating with the state actors. You do what you can. Even open source drivers (which are not gonna happen when operating within tightly regulated radio bands) won't help if there's a hardware backdoor.
Barbing 3 hours ago||
Ah nice so leave the phones in another room

Easy but for missing Step 1 of “Colocate with friends and business partners”

lotyrin 2 hours ago||
Just only ever speak in a language of your own invention that uses both cryptographic and steganographic techniques which you invented while colocated, maybe.
RealityVoid 2 hours ago||
I can't wait until we're all mentats each speaking our custom encrypted pidgin. That will surely help with communication and world peace!

Not your keys, not your speech!

627467 4 hours ago|||
Motorola Solutions != motorola mobility

Ill leave you to investigate how != they are

herewulf 3 hours ago|||
This. I know some people who work for the former and they are always having to say "no, I don't work for that Motorola". The shared name is entirely historic.
RajT88 2 hours ago||
Mobility is in Merchandise Mart, Solutions is in Schaumburg.

Used to be anyways. (My office was a floor below in the mart)

farkanoid 3 hours ago|||
I did. There's long term patent cross-licensing agreements between the two companies. Motorola mobility may be a separate company now, but they didn't start from scratch.
627467 3 hours ago|||
> they didnt start from scratch

> long term patern cross licensing

> israel

> pegasus

Basically lots of judgment based off of superficial facts with little understanding of implications and the actual consequences of those facts.

farkanoid 3 hours ago||
Well, you sure showed me.
cromka 45 minutes ago||
They did. You're nitpicking to not lose face while you could have easily say "OK, didn't know they were separate brands" and we'd all move on with our lives.
karel-3d 30 minutes ago|||
The mororola mobility is a Chinese company with Chinese management. They bought the brand and the patent portfolio. They sure as hell are not supplying Israel or NSA.
DANmode 2 hours ago|||
Will Graphene not require Moto to offer an IOMMU like Pixels do?
worldsavior 59 minutes ago||
I'd say you're paranoid. Nobody cares about you, and they won't invest billions just so they can see your hot nude pictures. There are much easier ways to get information out of a phone, no need for a backdoor.

If there were ever any backdoor in some phone, it would have been found. No smartphone company is gonna take that chance that someone will find their backdoor, it will literally kill the company.

krior 14 minutes ago|||
Sometimes you become a target purely by chance. You may witness something you should not have seen, are at the wrong place at the wrong time, the "algorithm" glitches and increases your "thread level" by 5000%. In most of these situations preparations like running graphene os can be quite the boon.

Or think of friends and family. When they become the target, you are prepared, you have the knowledge and tools ready, you can be the guide that helps them navigate a hostile digital world.

Xunjin 40 minutes ago||||
Whether parent is paranoid or not, Pegasus literally is used to spy, just because the state might not care about his hot nude pictures does not mean they don't care about other phone usage.

"While NSO Group markets Pegasus as a product for fighting crime and terrorism, governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists."[0]

Information these they can be much as powerful as a bomb, for example, I could learn more about your calls and discover that you do something immoral but not illegal and use it to blackmail you.

0.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(spyware)

lejalv 9 minutes ago||
As if spying on “governments around the world have routinely used the spyware to surveil journalists, lawyers, political dissidents, and human rights activists” wasn't already alarming, Pegasus has also been used to spy elected officials.

A recent court case investigating spying on 37 elected representatives [1] (including the prime minister, three ministers, and regional politicians) had to be closed in 2023 and again in 2026 “for lack of cooperation of the Israeli government”.

[1] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20220510/pegasus-espiados-sanch... (spanish) [2] https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20260122/juez-archiva-caso-pega... (spanish)

saikia81 25 minutes ago|||
I'm guessing you missed out on the Snowden revelations? Or the news articles about federal agents literally laughing at private dick pics.

And your second paragraph seems to go on the premise that the average person care if there is a backdoor.

I don't know why you wouldn't take security seriously, when even the US government is telling everyone to be careful where they supply their devices because of spying. Just don't trust them to point the finger the right way.

Zak 5 hours ago||
I'm glad to hear that. That means these devices will be a popular target, perhaps the popular target for alternative operating systems both Android-based and non-Android Linux.
boltzmann-brain 1 hour ago||
with the advent of AI assists, I can't wait for people to start hooking up SoCs, GPUs, and other components burdened by proprietary driver and firmware to logic analyzers, and letting AI have a crack at it. I wonder what'll happen - this might well be the end of proprietary blobs, and I'm here for it.
p0w3n3d 1 hour ago|||
That would be wonderful but cracking proprietary blobs which may be and probably are encrypted, would take massive amount of time, and later rework could take a lot of tokens and broken SoCs. Nowadays electronics are driven by software so one bit off and voltage can get 9V instead of 3V for example
mptest 1 hour ago||||
the end of proprietary blobs has to be the oddest set of words that excites me
Imustaskforhelp 50 minutes ago|||
Oh, This might be one of the few ideas I approve AI use of.

Cursor spent like Million dollars on creating a browser which people were able to make later with a 200$/100$ subscription in the same amount of days as cursor with human assistance.

I don't think that this can be "autonomous", we assumed that making browsers could be autonomous process but it wasn't. That was the take I took from it all.

Will this be an example of autonomous tho? I think we still need a human experienced with reverse engineering in the loop but it might significantly improve their workflow

I wish if cursor, instead of having burnt million $ to something worthless essentially, Could have atleast done this experiment.

yjftsjthsd-h 1 hour ago||
Historically Moto devices have already had eg. pretty good lineageos support ( https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/#motorola ).
mmh0000 4 hours ago||
If true. And I put a big if on that.

I WILL be buying their flagship model.

My go to for Graphene has been used Pixels from eBay. Because I can’t give money to Google in good conscience.

dotancohen 2 hours ago||
Doesn't buying a used pixel encourage the sale of new pixels by demonstrating a healthy resale value?
nhumrich 1 hour ago||
I don't think the market of people buying used phones for the purpose of graphene is going to make a dent in profits for Google. It raises resale value maybe by say, $0, considering the price is set by the average consumer
smusamashah 2 hours ago|||
Didn't know more people are doing this. I am also using a used Pixel 4a which I got from eBay. Still has good battery. I don't see any reason to upgrade any time soon.
boltzmann-brain 1 hour ago|||
Speaking of battery, veeeeery soon phones will have mandated replaceable batteries in the EU. I'm just hoping my current moto (a $99 job perfectly adequate for absolutely everything I do) survives until then.

Aside: I've noticed over the years that phones die in one of the following ways: - too fast charging (battery dies, charge controller dies) - usb port dies - screen broken - all sorts of falls

A lether folio case, gorilla glass, and a Qi charging adapter solve all of those problems (the charging adapter also limits the current by virtue of being inefficient). It has a magnetic connector (it's a simple two-pin job and it doesn't have any issues) - in the rare occasion I want to charge up real quick, I can still hook up directly via usb c, and meanwhile the port is stuffed with the converter's plug which prevents it from accumulating dirt and fluff.

I'm glad to say that even despite many falls, some directly onto the screen, the phone itself still works very well, even if the case and glass protector are obviously ragged.

I hope once unlockable Moto's come around I'll be able to keep that one for a long while as well.

throawayonthe 16 minutes ago||||
well, it isn't receiving security updates https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-support
duskdozer 1 hour ago||||
imo the RAM bloat/overly aggressive OS. on a similar aged device without zswap I couldn't run more than one maybe two things without the OS killing everything in the background. I think it was better before I got stuck updating to 15
DANmode 2 hours ago|||
Security patches.
throawayonthe 15 minutes ago||
and support for hw memory tagging :p
dataflow 2 hours ago|||
You should really try to buy any phone used if you can, whether Pixel or Google or not.
scrollop 1 hour ago||
Why?
dataflow 1 hour ago|||
For the environment? To reduce e-waste? And you'll almost certainly save substantial money too.
aussieguy1234 4 hours ago||
I too have been buying used Pixels, mostly for environmental reasons. But from a local shop phonebot. Got 3 phones from there, no issues at all.
Barbing 3 hours ago||
Buying used introduces such a big supply chain risk. I stay safe by buying direct and asking the NSA not to open the shipment in the order notes.

(y’all know this one https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa... )

gf000 2 hours ago||
What is the supposed threat model here?

Mr. Rich Guy sells me his personal device he used in the previous year because he wants new shiny phone, but he may have the very slightest chance of being a super evil genius? The government selling tampered phones on ebay, when they could just.. go directly to vendors and put their backdoors directly into new phones/software?

Sorry for the light snark, but this attack vector seems way too complicated for not much benefit. Unless you are some very VIP person being personally targeted.

goldenarm 16 minutes ago||
Motorola reps reading this : I almost bought the Motorola Signature, but changed my mind after hearing of all the adware and crapware that you continuously install on your devices.

If you want to invest into software, this should be #1 of your list.

keerthiko 5 hours ago||
Does anyone know where I can read more about which devices will be supported? GrapheneOS website devices FAQ doesn't list any Motorola devices, and the press release doesn't have much either.
vbezhenar 5 hours ago||
As I understand that situation, GrapheneOS developers are super picky about hardware they want to support. So out of all android phones they decided to support only Google Pixel because only these phones provide good enough hardware support for security features they want to provide.

So likely no existing Motorola phones are good enough and only new ones, developed in collaboration with GrapheneOS developers, will be suitable.

wolvoleo 5 hours ago|||
There's no details yet, but I was reading it won't likely emerge until 2027 so ostensibly these will be models that are yet to be announced. Might even be models dedicated to grapheneos (and other open source roms as they mentioned here)
MYEUHD 5 hours ago|||
Future Motorola devices (or maybe a subset of them?) will support GrapheneOS

> We're collaborating on future devices

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116159602850585685

BLKNSLVR 5 hours ago|||
I'm pretty sure strcat was saying on a previous thread that it will only be future models, so nothing in their current line up in guaranteed to be compatible.
catlikesshrimp 5 hours ago||
This project is in hype stage. No work seems to have been done, yet.

Samsung had something as ambitious years ago, but it went nowhere https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-promised-make-old-pho...

Stay tuned

notorandit 2 hours ago||
It depends, but it is promising.

If devs can have access to all of the hardware and related documentation and source code, then this is to become very good news.

PCs became popular and widespread because of that: openness.

wobfan 1 hour ago||
The biggest argument for me to buy one of these phones - when they actually arrive - next to running GrapheneOS, will be whether these phones, like all others, are way too big to use with only one hand. Like, I don't have a lot of requirements. Just make it run GrapheneOS and let it be >6 inches. I'll immediately buy it.
pastrami_panda 54 minutes ago|
Larger than 6 inches, got it!

Assuming you meant < 6 inches I'm all for it as well, it would be another incredible usp for these devices.

Elfener 30 minutes ago|
I would love to see devices with a non-destroyed (corners cut off, random hole for the front camera) screen.
dminik 2 minutes ago||
I'm fine with rounded corners. But I would also like a phone without a selfie camera. I just don't ever use it. If my phone can spy on me then that's the only use the front camera has ever had.
Liftyee 24 minutes ago|||
You still get the same rectangular screen size for a given size of phone body, unless you want no front camera and sharp square corners. You still get an entire 16:9 screen area in the middle of a rounded corner screen, just with extra screen replacing the bezels on each end.
dashzebra 27 minutes ago||
I much prefer maximizing screen to body ratio, even if some sacrifices have to be made: rounded corners and punchhole cam.

I'm also pretty sure rounded corners are stronger on impact.

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