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Posted by anjel 3 hours ago

An interactive map of Flock Cams(deflock.org)
366 points | 99 comments
LordGrey 1 hour ago|
Coincidentally, a nearby county has just announced that they have begun installing new Flock cameras [0].

Their stated reason is: "Along with the cameras being used to reduce crime, the sheriff’s office said they may also be used for public safety concerns, including AMBER Alerts and Silver Alerts."

The cameras are good when we're all on the happy path, but as soon as a bad actor gets involved, all of that surveillance won't look so great. History shows that the odds of that happening are decidedly non-zero.

EDIT: Searching for some info on the grant referenced in the article, it appears that a county must match 20% of the grant amount; one example is [1]. I'm sure this looks like a great deal to county officials.

[0] https://www.ketk.com/news/crime-public-safety/new-traffic-ca...

[1] https://www.beltontexas.gov/news_detail_T11_R1277.php

debarshri 16 minutes ago||
Small counties generate huge revenues with traffic cameras.

I think reducing crime and road safety is an excuse.

There are true innovators in the traffic camera space but i think counties often choose vendors who give them best ROI.

dspillett 1 minute ago|||
> Small counties generate huge revenues with traffic cameras.

Whether or not that is true, I suspect it is, the best way to avoid fines for breaking traffic regulations is to not break traffic regulations. They can't make anything from you that way if you do.

dhdaadhd 5 minutes ago|||
Can you elaborate on true innovators? No shade, but I have a hard time conceptualizing what innovation would look like in this space.
qup 57 minutes ago|||
The odds are 100% that it will be abused.
culi 1 minute ago||
Because they already are
pibaker 15 minutes ago|||
> Along with the cameras being used to reduce crime, the sheriff’s office said they may also be used for public safety concerns, including AMBER Alerts and Silver Alerts.

Hot take: AMBER alert is a way to keep the public paranoid about child abduction by strangers, an evil but extremely rare act, and turn their paranoia into support for law enforcement. It may not be the intended purposes, but the (real) purpose of a system is what it does.

It is no surprise that Flock, like other parties pushing for the erosion of privacy and personal freedom, are following the same playbook. Don't you want your kid (or your doggo) to get home safe? If you don't let us spy on you your literally supporting child abductors. Checkmate libertarians.

The reality of AMBER alert is they overwhelmingly come from custody dispute cases where the child's safety is not in jeopardy, because they tend to be the only kind of cases where they know enough about the "abductor" to issue an alert that is not just "look for a man driving a white van." The reality of child abuse is you should be infinitely more worried about authority figures dealing with the child — parents, relatives, teachers, pastors, coaches and yes, the police — than strangers driving unmarked white vans.

birdo-wordo 37 minutes ago||
[flagged]
parl_match 34 minutes ago|||
> I just don't understand the hate against these plate capture cams specifically.

Because the scope of information they gather is much larger than most law enforcement technologies.

> Law enforcement needs reform for sure

And the current protections are woefully inadequate.

jamespo 30 minutes ago|||
I don't understand why you felt you needed to create a throwaway for that comment
malfist 27 minutes ago||
Because it's nonsense. It's blatant "whataboutism" in support of authoritarianism.
snailmailman 2 hours ago||
This is a quite scary map. They are all over my local area. It may technically be possible to route a drive around them, but if you take the most convenient path between any two points at least one camera will spot you. I'd have to leave my neighborhood through back roads and enter local shopping areas through sidestreets.

This data shouldn't even be collected in the first place, let alone consolidated into a national network that any police officer can decide to spy on me through.

gentile 2 hours ago||
Download osm data, extract roads and surveillance, gpd overlay how=difference, remove/edit the different osmid's, write to pbf file, convert to obf file w/ osmandmapcreator, import into OsmAnd.

Now you have turn by turn navigation around ALPRs on your phone.

Edit: link https://github.com/pickpj/Big-B-Router - I tend to find ALPRs that are missing in the OSM data, so keep on updating OSM data.

ssl-3 1 hour ago||
> Now you have turn by turn navigation around ALPRs [that we -- regular people -- know about] on your phone [while still being observed by the ones we don't know about].

fixed that for you. :-/

carefulfungi 17 minutes ago|||
You should assume every police cruiser has a plate reader, too.
CGMthrowaway 2 hours ago|||
> It may technically be possible to route a drive around them

That's an interesting idea...

sodality2 2 hours ago|||
https://dontgetflocked.com/
baby_souffle 2 hours ago|||
I can't speak to flock but I know that other vendors in the space have software designed to calculate optimal locations to maximize probability at least one license plate scan for every trip taken.

Presumably that software can then be used to upsell additional cameras because with an increased density your capabilities start to approximate real-time live position tracking instead of just getting approximate locations of hot plates.

iamtheworstdev 1 hour ago|||
wow. quite literally the only ones in my area are surveilling the county park / community center. that's creepy. I'll just have to assume they're doing something creepier at the public library.
burningChrome 1 hour ago||
>> This is a quite scary map.

It can be. FLOCK data was used to put Bryan Kohberger at the scene along with other people's security camera's. Cops regularly use FLOCK camera's to get hits for criminals that have warrants for violent crime.

I can see why people are ok with them when they're used to get criminals off the streets. However, I've seen multiple times where cops initiate a felony stop (where people are pulled out at gunpoint and detained) against a car they got a hit on - only to find out the person they really wanted wasn't driving or even in the car at all.

What's interesting is businesses and houses have so many cameras nowadays that the first thing cops do when they get to the scene of a violent crime is canvas the area for camera's. So yeah, you can avoid FLOCK, but there are most likely hundreds of other camera's that will capture you driving through any given area.

Firerouge 52 minutes ago|||
Do you have a source to your Bryan claim?

If you look at the map, there are zero flock cameras reported in that region.

None in Moscow Idaho where the murder happened, none in Pullman where he lived, and none showed between the locations.

zythyx 37 minutes ago||
There's a disclaimer when you first open the page that the map is incomplete and that users need to submit the data. It's possible that data hasn't been submitted/parsed yet
Firerouge 30 minutes ago||
It's possible, but I can't find a corroborating news report, and it's the first I've heard this claim made about that case.
ghouse 1 hour ago||||
But the cameras that the law enforcement officers canvas in the area aren't centrally aggregated and tagged with meta data such that they can be queried at scale.
ImPostingOnHN 37 minutes ago||||
There have been numerous instances where cops used it to stalk exes, etc. If it isn't already, it will be used to stalk a blacklist of dissidents. It will continue to happen as long as the system exists.
nullsanity 21 minutes ago||||
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birdo-wordo 42 minutes ago||||
Sounds like it's working as intended. These systems don't track people, they provide objective clues and evidence.
Ajedi32 38 minutes ago||
By tracking everyone at all times.
xXSLAYERXx 1 hour ago|||
> However, I've seen multiple times where cops initiate a felony stop

At what point do we accept that all systems are flawed? There could be many variables as to why the perp wasn't in the car. Maybe the perp stole the car. Maybe the perp borrowed the car. Maybe these systems do not work well in fog etc etc. I don't know how we're supposed to advance technology that makes us safer without getting into these muky situations from time to time.

mulmen 16 minutes ago||
Technology is a means to an end, not the end itself. If you can’t make it safe then don’t deploy it.
cdrnsf 2 hours ago||
Remember, according to Flock's CEO, Deflock is a terrorist organization.
mikece 1 hour ago||
Yes, and according to Steve Ballmer (back in the day) Linux Torvalds was a terrorist. People are allowed to say stupid things.
burkaman 42 minutes ago|||
I don't think this is true, I can't even find anyone else claiming this happened.
nullsanity 18 minutes ago||
[dead]
technol0gic 44 minutes ago||||
by "say stupid things," you of course mean "tell bald-faced lies"
jLaForest 1 hour ago||||
People are allowed to say stupid things....and those people should be held accountable for the stupid things they say
hsuduebc2 45 minutes ago|||
Everyone who is not content with the way I do business must be a terrorist for sure. o_o
hsuduebc2 47 minutes ago|||
Lol, sure it is. Ridiculous.
birdo-wordo 35 minutes ago||
The community around deflock promotes and condones theft and vandalism on these devices.

The T word is out of line, but I think that's the spirit of what he meant.

dawnerd 26 minutes ago|||
That’s not a group associated with or really related to deflock. Deflock at most has stickers and signs to put up.
array_key_first 26 minutes ago|||
A more generous term is civil disobedience. I think the argument is the original theft was using tax payers dollars on fancy tracking devices in the first place.
birdo-wordo 22 minutes ago||
It's not civil if it's law breaking.
array_key_first 22 minutes ago||
That's literally exactly what civil disobedience is.
birdo-wordo 9 minutes ago||
No that's uncivil disobedience. The difference is inaction vs action.
david_shaw 22 minutes ago||
It would be an interesting and potentially useful project to combine these camera locations with Maps routing -- similar to "avoid toll roads," we could "avoid surveillance cameras."
pietervdvn 2 hours ago||
If you spot missing camera's - Flock or not - you can add them to OSM easily with https://mapcomplete.org/surveillance
willis936 1 hour ago||
Woof. There is one that I basically must drive by everyday close to where I live. How can I figure out who is responsible for its installation so I can let them know how I feel (and will vote) about it?
unclad5968 37 minutes ago||
Weird. The city I live in has cameras, but only a few at random intersections. Most of the cameras are on a university campus, home depot, Lowes, and target. Are these normal places to put flock cameras for other cities?
andoando 7 minutes ago||
Why dont they put up a couple drones up high in the sky
bob1029 44 minutes ago||
The only flock cameras indicated in my town are the canonical Home Depot arrangement. I'm pretty sure it's part of their standard operating procedures at this point. The effect these have had on the in store experience (at my location) is the primary thing that has me interested in limited deployments. Shopping at HD prior to the ALPRs was a horrible time. I think they finally caught the guy who was stealing the little screws out of the irrigation vacuum breakers. You can actually get a complete, unopened factory product most of the time now.
s1gsegv 27 minutes ago||
And to think, all it cost was a significant loss of privacy nationwide
mulmen 12 minutes ago||
Home Depot didn’t have CCTV and loss prevention before Flock?
jmward01 34 minutes ago|
So, our city clearly has other cameras but they are from a different vendor (and don't show up on the map). I wonder how good/bad the other players in the industry are. Flock gets the press, is that just letting someone worse quietly fill in the gaps?
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