Top
Best
New

Posted by digitallogic 4 days ago

Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)(www.ethanhein.com)
226 points | 160 commentspage 5
52-6F-62 1 day ago|
Absurd. A guitar within tolerance is in tune. It's a fundamental feature of the instrument. Not a flaw.

Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections, it is an expression however formed. The fact that we can measure it is one thing. But the music or instruments do not need conform to discrete measurements to satisfy.

I know engineers hate this, but ask any musician. It's like arguing that a sitar and its scales aren't right. Absurd.

bob1029 1 day ago||
> Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections

I agree with this in spirit, but there are practical ramifications of getting the frequency domain wrong. The human brain is very particular in this space. Even for completely untrained listeners. It's nothing like the human visual system. You're working on timescales measured in microseconds with auditory signals. Even where the instruments are physically positioned on stage is significant. Getting their pitch slightly wrong can be catastrophic.

dahart 22 hours ago|||
Many musicians can readily confirm that the difference between temperaments can be felt and heard by trained ears. A guitar tuned to equal temperament has major thirds that warble audibly. It feels different when you use just intonation, which isn’t generally possible on a guitar.
kjkjadksj 21 hours ago||
Why can’t you use intonation? Isn’t that just confirming the note is the same on different strings? And also the goal of bridge adjustment?
dahart 19 hours ago||
For the reasons the article explains. You can use “just intonation” a bit on a guitar, but it will only work for certain chords in certain positions. BTW note that just intonation is different from string intonation - I wasn’t talking about making sure the 12th fret is the same note as the 12th fret harmonic on a single string, I was talking about the tuning system called “just intonation” that defines what certain intervals are, and allows for perfect thirds and perfect fifths in some keys. But it won’t work everywhere on a guitar. It’s not possible to get (for example) perfect fifths on all string combinations in all positions, but it is possible to tune the guitar so you have a perfect fifth when crossing 1 string while in 5th position.

The goal of regular guitar intonation and bridge adjustment is to get the guitar as close as possible to 12 tone equal temperament (TET), which is slightly ‘out of tune’ as the article describes. 12 TET is the best you can do if you want something equally close to perfect fifths (or thirds, etc.) in all positions in all keys across all string combinations; that’s what 12 TET is for, it’s designed to minimize the worse case, at the expense of losing the best case.

f17428d27584 22 hours ago|||
This article is just an introduction to the math behind 12-TET, why it exists, the tradeoffs, etc.

The only thing that is absurd here is your bizarre strawman that discussing equal temperament is somehow non-musical and that engineers can’t understand what music is because they want to measure things.

Synaesthesia 1 day ago|||
Have you heard of even tempering, on piano?
criddell 23 hours ago|||
Engineers hate it and so they invented the true temperament guitar. It’s like a regular guitar except the frets are a bit funky.
tadfisher 20 hours ago||
Even those are not "true-temperament" instruments like a piano, they adapt a "well-temperament" tuning system like Bach's keyboard tuning [0]. The end result is closer to true-temperament in some keys, and farther in others.

Oh, and that applies to standard tuning only. YMMV with alternative tunings, especially the open tunings.

0: https://www.guyguitars.com/truetemperament/eng/tt_techdetail...

relaxing 23 hours ago|||
Any musician with enough training will tell you which notes are out of tune on their well-tuned instrument, and how they correct for it as they play.

Just because we live with the trade-off doesn’t make it correct in any other sense.

YZF 22 hours ago||
I don't think this is generally true for the guitar. There are even songs that have notes intentionally out of tune (e.g. Scar Tissue by the Red Hot Chili Peppers).

Agree with the OP that the characteristics of the guitar, including its "out of perfect tune", is what gives its music its unique characteristic. It's not a bug it's a feature. There might be some people with perfect pitch who get annoyed but for most people that's "colour" and the sound they expect and associate with their favorite music. If you played those songs on an "ideal" guitar they would not sound right.

relaxing 13 hours ago|||
Frusciante is an amazing guitar player — check out his solo albums. He knew what he was doing putting those out of tune notes in.
kjkjadksj 21 hours ago|||
Outside of people like van halen also pretty much no one is exploring the entire neck on a single song. So the issue of the guitar not being perfectly intonated is irrelevant since they are using just a piece of its range.
YZF 17 hours ago|||
A lot of simple songs are just open "cowboy" chords for sure. But those are played on the first frets while the guitar is typically intonated at the 12th fret and tuned with open strings. I would expect those first frets to be fairly "out" vs. the open strings.
relaxing 13 hours ago|||
“Whole neck” is irrelevant. Things can go out of tune at any fret.

EVH famously tuned his B string slightly flat to make his D (on the 3rd fret) sound better. Look it up.

Copyrightest 23 hours ago||
I am a jazz guitarist and am sympathetic to this comment: the way I tune my guitar these days is hitting an E tuning fork, playing a particular E7 chord, and deciding if it sounds good:

  e —0–
  B —0–
  G —7–
  D —6–
  A —7–
  E —0–
Learned it from Jimmy Bruno. I despise digital tuners. However it is worth noting: a properly-tuned guitar will never be able to play a “barbershop seventh,” which hits the natural harmonic dominant 7th and is so flat compared to TET that it’s really almost a 6th. The chord itself sounds more bittersweet and less “funky” than a TET dominant 7th. OTOH the TET chord is an essential part of modern blues-influenced music: being “out of tune” makes the chord sharp and strong, almost like a blue cheese being “moldy.” So I’m not beaten up about the limitations, it’s just worth keeping in mind: no instrument can beat a group of human voices.

In general your ears do not hear these little arithmetical games around mismatched harmonies. They hear things like “this chord sounds warm and a little sad, this one is bright and fun.”

fuzzfactor 22 hours ago||
There's more than one way to be sympathetic :)

With 12 of the strings on a sitar having equal (thin) diameter, but different lengths so they can be tuned to the 12 notes in the scale, these are also unplayed strings which contribute to the sound by resonating underneath the main course of strings which are the ones fretted and manually played on.

That's so endearing I guess that's why they call them sympathetic strings ;)

While my guitar gently weeps, etc. . .

cpursley 1 day ago||
Fixed it: “Why can’t you tune your poorly made guitar?”

The most guitars today are still made in the style of the 1950s Gibsons and Fenders, including the neck and tuner layout. Most guitar buyers focus on the aesthetic and not the quality. I switched to a headless guitar where the tuners are at the bridge and it has a fanned fretboard giving the strings more natural tensions, the thing stays in tune and is intonated at the frets extremely well.

lillesvin 23 hours ago||
Even your fancy guitar is not exempt from harmonics math. TFA has nothing to do with the quality of a guitar and everything to do with 12-Tone Equal Temperament.
post-it 23 hours ago|||
Weird to describe 99%+ of all guitars, including some of the best made guitars in the world, as "poorly made."
yesb 1 day ago|||
This article is relevant to a theoretic perfectly designed and built guitar.
rondini 1 day ago||
You’re assuming that the goal for a guitar player is to have perfectly optimal instrument when in reality many players want an instrument that feels and sounds like the artists that inspire them. Aesthetics is part of that but if they enjoy the sound of the instrument then who’s to say that another one is “better”?
rurban 19 hours ago|
Tuning guitar strings by hand is trivial. Try to tune a piano. There have up to 3 strings per key, and quite a lot of keys. Cannot be perfect, but should sound "warm" enough.