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Posted by voxadam 1 day ago

Modernizing swapping: virtual swap spaces(lwn.net)
22 points | 13 comments
robinsonb5 1 minute ago|
OOM killers serve a purpose but - for a desktop OS - they're missing the point.

In a sane world the user would decide which application to shut down, not the OS; the user would click the appropriate application's close gadget, and the user interface would remain responsive enough for that to happen in a matter of seconds rather than minutes.

I understand the many reasons why that's not possible, but it's a huge failing of Linux as a desktop OS, and OOM killers are picking around the edges of the problem, not addressing it head-on.

(Which isn't to say, of course, that OOM killers aren't the right approach in a server context.)

Numerlor 1 day ago|
The swap/memory situation in linux has surprised me quite a bit coming from Windows.

Windows remains mostly fully responsive even when memory is being pushed to the limits and swapping gigabytes per second, while on linux when I ran a stress test that ate all the memory I had trouble even terminating the script

dlcarrier 1 hour ago||
There's two things that cause this. First, Windows has a variable swap file size, whereas Linux has a fixed size, so Windows can just fill up your drive, instead of running out of swap space. Second, the default behavior for the out-of-memory killer in Linux isn't very aggressive, with the default behavior being to over-commit memory instead of killing processes.

As far as I know, Linux still doesn't support a variable-sized swap file, but it is possible to change how aggressively it over-commits memory or kills processes to free memory.

As to why there differences are there, they're more historical than technical. My best guess is that Windows figured it out sooner, because it has always existed in an environment where multiple programs are memory hogs, whereas it wasn't common in Linux until the proliferation of web-based everything requiring hundreds of megabytes to gigabytes of memory for each process running in a Chrome tab or Electron instance, even if it's something as simple as a news article or chat client.

Check out this series of blog posts. for more information on Linux memory management: https://dev.to/fritshooglandyugabyte/series/16577

LargoLasskhyfv 24 minutes ago||
> As far as I know, Linux still doesn't support a variable-sized swap file...

You can add additional swapfiles during runtime, or rather on demand. I'm just unaware of any mechanism doing that automagically, though.

Could probably done in eBPF and some shell scripts, I guess?

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3 hours ago|||
I've had that same experience. On new systems I install earlyoom. I'd rather have one app die than the whole system.

You'd think after 30 years of GUIs and multi-tasking, we'd have this figured out, but then again we don't even have a good GUI framework.

LtWorf 15 minutes ago||
I used to use it but it's too aggressive. It kills stuff too quickly.
Onavo 57 minutes ago|||
> Windows remains mostly fully responsive even when memory is being pushed to the limits and swapping gigabytes per second

In my experience this is only on later versions of the NT Kernel and only on NVME (mostly the latter I think).

robinsonb5 11 minutes ago||
Yeah I think SSD / NVME makes all the difference here - I certainly remember XP / Vista / Win 7 boxes that became unusable and more-or-less unrecoverable (just like Linux) once a swap storm starts.
rwmj 1 hour ago|||
The annoying thing I've found with Linux under memory stress (and still haven't found a nice way to solve) is I want it to always always always kill firefox first. Instead it tends to either kill nothing (causing the system to hang) or kill some vital service.
0xbadcafebee 2 minutes ago|||
[delayed]
delamon 2 minutes ago||||
You can bump /proc/$firefox_pid/oom_score_adj to make it likely target. The easiest way is to make wrapper script that bumps the score and then starts firefox. All children will inherit the score.
pmontra 31 minutes ago||||
I'm not sure that I'd want the OS to kill my browser while I'm working within it.

Of course the browser is the largest process in my system, so when I notice that memory is running low I restart it and I gain some 15 GB.

Basically I am the memory manager of my system and I've been able to run my 32 GB Linux laptop with no swap since 2014. I read that a system with no swap is suboptimal but the only tradeoff I notice is that manual OOM vs less writes on my SSD. I'm happy with it.

jauntywundrkind 15 minutes ago|||
If using systemd-oomd, you can launch Firefox into it's own cgroup / systemd.scope, that has memory pressure control settings set to not kill it. ManagedOOMPreference=avoid.

https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst...

There's a variety of oom daemons. bustd is very lightweight & new. earlyoom has been around a long time, and has an --avoid flag. https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom?tab=readme-ov-file#prefe...

Your concerns are very addressable.

jauntywundrkind 1 day ago||
Like Linux / open source often, it depends on what you do with it!

The kernel is very slow to kill stuff. Very very very very slow. It will try and try and try to prevent having to kill anything. It will be absolutely certain it can reclaim nothing more, and it will be at an absolute crawl trying to make every little kilobyte it can free, swapping like mad to try options to free stuff.

But there are a number of daemons you can use if you want to be more proactive! Systemd now has systemd-oomd. It's pretty good! There's others, with other strategies for what to kill first, based on other indicators!

The flexibility is a feature, not a bug. What distro are you on? I'm kind of surprised it didn't ship with something on?