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Posted by giuliomagnifico 4 days ago

Tested: How Many Times Can a DVD±RW Be Rewritten? Methodology and Results(goughlui.com)
198 points | 65 comments
parsimo2010 12 hours ago|
I love this and I love seeing that it's from 2026 and someone still took the time to do all this testing- it must have been seriously involved because even at 6x it takes a while to fill up a DVD, and then to repeat that hundreds of times on several discs would be an eternity.

I haven't used a DVD+-RW in several years, as wireless file transfer over networks and flash drives handle pretty much all of my needs now, but I sure used the heck out of my DVD writer when I had it. I had no idea these discs could go hundreds of writes before failure, I always got paranoid about reliability and probably never went above 20 writes on a disc.

Edit: at the end of the post the author says, "that’s about 4020 hours across two drives, 5248 burns and both drives are still seemingly operating just fine." What a colossal amount of time.

avadodin 5 hours ago||
I thought two-three times. Maybe a dozen. I always treated all kinds of writeable CD/DVDs as if they were one-write and done.

To be honest, it hurts every time I write to an SSD drive — which is all of the time these days.

sva_ 1 hour ago|||
I just checked using $ sudo smartctl -a /dev/nvme0n1

    Percentage Used:                    2%
    Data Units Read:                    7,173,143 [3.67 TB]
    Data Units Written:                 22,666,414 [11.6 TB]
That's after about 2 years of use. I think SSDs can take quite the beating nowadays.
Fnoord 1 hour ago|||
For archiving, DVD is 4 GB and who knows how long the medium will last.

LTO-6 drives go for 300-500 EUR refurbished. You need a FC switch or HBA. Each tape holds 2+ TB uncompressed data.

As for NVMe, if you do a lot of writes (e.g. DB's, Docker), go for enterprise. If you do that, grab one with PLP. You'd use it also as a cache for ZFS.

rlv-dan 9 hours ago|||
I wrote an article in a similar vein some years ago that might interest you too:

https://www.rlvision.com/blog/how-long-do-writable-cddvd-las...

CamelCaseCondo 6 hours ago|||
From my personal experience, the article and the comments I read here they seriously undersold the reliability of rewriting. For any other RW medium (audio or video cassettes, even floppies) I remember ad campaigns by Sony, TDK, Philips, … on tv. But not for these.
rkagerer 5 hours ago||
I feel in general the industry was more conservative making these kind of estimates than it is today. I assume they also benefited from years of CD-RW field experience honing the tech.
krige 8 hours ago||
Ye, having experienced the "joys" of rewriteable CDs, I completely skipped the DVD RWs, expecting more of the same. Guess it wasn't, but then again, thumb drives became a thing.
tombert 12 hours ago||
DVD-RWs always seemed like complete magic to me. I had no idea how they worked, or why they worked. I made and wiped DVD-RWs as a teenager dozens of times, because my dad got annoyed that I kept using up all his DVD-R's, so I bought like three DVD-RWs and used them for all my experiments.

I don't think I got anywhere near the limits for any of them, as I don't remember getting any faults from them, but they were always cool to me.

I was also one of the happy few who had a DVD-RAM drive for my desktop as a teenager; I never really understood why DVD-RAM never caught on, because it seemed to work fine for me, and it was kind of nice not having to wipe the disk to erase stuff.

lxgr 2 hours ago||
They definitely are mysterious, but to me, magneto-optical media (such as MiniDiscs) take the cake.

Written magnetically (while heated by a laser), read optically (by a much weaker laser), and somehow all of that fit into a pocketable player powered for 10+ hours by a single AA battery!?

Unlike rewritable optical media, opto-magnetic storage also seems to have effectively unlimited rewrite cycles. It's a real shame they never became a popular data storage option, mainly due to Sony's paranoia stemming from also owning a huge music and film division.

Fnoord 1 hour ago||
Music-wise, lossy compression takes place via a proprietary codec (ATRAC). It isn't viable for data storage (neither was CDR(W)). Trust me, I had data loss due to all of these. Just use LTO with some parity data.
Tuna-Fish 5 hours ago|||
dvd-ram drives and media were always premium products, with the drives at least ~4x more expensive than the -r drives of the time, and the media was much worse than that.

When -r disks bought in bulk cost ~20c each, $10 disks are a hard sell.

Dylan16807 7 hours ago|||
I guess the drives just cost too much and so zip won until flash drives took over.
GiorgioG 25 minutes ago|||
People who still remember Zip drives! In college I did tech support for Iomega. It was an interesting time ;)
actionfromafar 3 hours ago|||
I saw zip adoption before CD-RW, flash drives much later. But maybe it depended on how much data you needed transferred. Early flash drives were much smaller than CD/DVD.
officeplant 1 hour ago||
I miss my first 128mb usb drive. Cost nearly $40 and survived a dozen wash cycles accidently left in my pocket all the time. Now days I've got 64gb drives that seem to shit the bed after a few rounds as a Live-USB linux environment. At least they only cost $15 or less.
ChrisGreenHeur 8 hours ago||
Well. There is a laser, the first time you write a DVD-RW the laser burns holes into the disc, those are your ones and zeroes. Then if you want to rewrite it you have to fill in the holes so the drive uses an epoxy covered brush to make sure the disc has a smooth layer, then it makes new holes.

It's really the one physically possible way to implement it if you think about it.

blue_pants 8 hours ago|||
Epoxy and brushes?

Doesn't it use a special metal layer, and the laser high-heats the spots to make them amorphous (to write) and then low-heats them to crystallize (to erase)?

fhdkweig 46 minutes ago||
I think there was intended sarcasm/joke.
yibers 5 hours ago||||
The DVD+RW actually used pencil and eraser technology instead. It was a surprisingly robust method.
scientism 4 hours ago||
Then came DVD±RW which used the magic pen technology. Each time you write, it changed both the color of the disc and the data. Surprisingly enough if you did it long enough it ended in color/data corruption...
awesomeMilou 8 hours ago||||
Won't the epoxy run out at some point?
ChrisGreenHeur 8 hours ago|||
That's the amazing part, when making the holes the epoxy melts and drips down into the collection bucket that the brush uses
thombat 6 hours ago|||
It comes years too late, but I finally understand the reliability problems I had with a DVD drive mounted on its side. If only I'd had your insight then, I could have taken the PC to a playground and burnt disks on the carousel.
jagged-chisel 4 hours ago||
I wouldn’t have expected gravity to be a problem at these scales. Wouldn’t surface tension override here? Maybe I’m totally off base …
afandian 4 hours ago|||
The original solution involved a very thick disc which could then leveled and re-pitted. The problem was that the change in mass over time made it hard to calibrate the acceleration.

It also put a high radial load on the spindle whilst mounted sideways which led to run-out.

And flooding the area with radon (a heavy gas) helped the disc to float a bit, but had unexpected consequences...

mgrandl 8 hours ago|||
I guess the holes are so microscopic, even one cubic centimeter would last for the lifetime of the device.
s_dev 7 hours ago||||
This is a troll.
bityard 6 hours ago||
No, it's a joke
15155 7 hours ago|||
Or, you know, how the technology actually works: two different lasers and crystallization states.
ChrisGreenHeur 5 hours ago||
Sure, dvds work by magic crystals.
sethammons 4 hours ago||
Next you're gonna tell me that applications run on text you can write by hand. Pffft. Ain't no way
doublerabbit 4 hours ago||
LLM's are actually little elves from the DMT dimension. They got captured and compressed in to silicon cells that now been enslaved by the evil. If you ask a LLM they will tell you it's true.
bearjaws 3 hours ago||
I used to work for a vendor who wrote the drivers for iTunes CD burning, I actually built a in house tool that could take multiple machines with 8 drives each and test our driver by burning to CD-R, DVD-R, DVD-RW, etc... and read the data back to ensure no regressions in our drivers.

Reason for testing so many drives is that when it comes to the real world, a lot of drive manufacturers cut corners and didn't follow standards, so we had a growing list of "work arounds" that we would validate. Every manufacturer would send us their drives to validate, we had a huge closet with shelves floor to ceiling of different drives.

Was a cool internship out of high school an forever thankful that I got it. Even if it's my most boomer skillset.

Couple of main things that post are 100% correct, the brand of media does matter. We actually had specific media we would recommend to the DOD for maximum stability. Second of all faster media always performs worse for archival purposes, and burning faster will result in more errors as well.

For testing we had a specific media for each type we found could be used for 25x tests reliably, but I don't remember the brands/type. We would basically load them once a year since we did a full verification every few weeks.

grepfru_it 12 hours ago||
>Windows Updates

If you want to stop windows updates, make your internet connection a metered connection. Updates will only be allowed on-demand.

The more you know!

grishka 34 minutes ago||
For a nuclear option, delete C:\windows\system32\wua* or move these files somewhere else.
dataflow 6 hours ago|||
I'm pretty sure I read that at some point they started still allowing updates on metered connections, just slower or more critical or something.
ocdtrekkie 11 hours ago||
If you have a Pro edition license most things Windows does are a registry key away. The entire policy branch of the registry is designed to have configuration pushed down from the network like when and how to update, but you can also set all of those keys manually.

(Also, no hacking is necessary to set up a Windows Pro install with a local account, just tell it you're going to domain join it.)

tom_ 10 hours ago|||
The local account tip is a good one. I used it when setting up Windows 11 Pro on my desktop PC.

Regarding updates: you might not even need to think about registry keys! I found these Windows 10 group policy settings to work well for many years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18157968 - and I'm still using them with Windows 11, near enough, though it seems you now need to go to "Windows Update\Manage end user experience" to find the Configure Automatic Updates setting I mention.

(I've also switched to using option 2 (Notify for download and auto install) rather than 3 (Auto download and notify for install), on the basis that it sounds safer, and I've had no problems from doing that. Not to say that I actually remember having any problems from letting Windows download the updates ahead of time! - but I'm comfortable living dangerously.)

avidiax 11 hours ago|||
One hint for the wary: Don't delay feature updates for the maximum allowed in the group policy editor. I couldn't figure out why I was getting forced reboots for updates despite other policies requiring it to ask permission. Turns out that if the update hits the group policy maximum, it forces an update immediately, other policies be damned.

So set it to the max - 14 days if you want some time to apply updates at your leisure, and you are wary of non-critical updates.

rkagerer 5 hours ago|||
If you don't want feature updates, go Windows 11 IoT Enterprise LTSC. It's a comparative breath of fresh air and what Windows should have been all along. No ads, no new unwanted bloat shoved down your throat, no mandatory TPM, and pretty much the longest security patch commitment of anything out of Microsoft. It works great as a daily driver.
VorpalWay 7 hours ago|||
You could also use an OS that doesn't tend to have dodgy updates that brick your system, such as most Linux distro. Nor force you to update if you don't want to.

Funny how a large company like Microsoft can't figure out QA, but volunteer Linux distros with much less resources can.

(A lot of Windows specific software works in wine these days, Valve's investment into improving it for games have helped for applications too. Not everything, and if you are stuck with such software, yeah that sucks.)

fc417fc802 1 hour ago||
> if you are stuck with such software

kvm-qemu, windows image, block network access to the windows update servers, problem solved?

zozbot234 8 hours ago||
DVD±RW is old stuff, I want proper phase-change persistent memory. Bring back Intel Optane and hook it up to a modern, high-performance PCIe bus.
userbinator 8 hours ago||
The same site has an article on that: https://goughlui.com/2024/07/28/tech-flashback-intel-optane-...

Retention issues are a bit worrying.

rkagerer 5 hours ago||
This is awesome, thanks.

My understanding is Optane is still unbeaten today when it comes to latency. Has anyone examined its use as a workstation OS volume compared to leading SSD's?

myself248 3 hours ago|||
My kingdom for a MicroSD card with Optane inside.
LargoLasskhyfv 1 hour ago||
There may be hope for something like that happening, conceptually at least. Underlying technology is different, though:

https://www.heise.de/en/news/Memory-chip-company-FMC-keeps-w...

https://www.ferroelectric-memory.com/technology/

stavros 4 hours ago||
Why did the author have to do all this hacking around with screenshots? Back in the day, you could query any window for its title/text/buttons and send events to the buttons directly. Is this not the case in Windows any more?
compounding_it 4 hours ago||
Would be interested to know if automating rewrites makes the disc run hotter which affects the disc lifetime physically as opposed to writing it and then removing it which cools it off (but may cause physical wear and tear from handling it). Does heat play a role in degradation or whether it’s the opposite and helps it in some way.
lxgr 2 hours ago||
What a great analysis! 20 years ago, this would have saved me a lot of headache/anxiety and a moderate amount of pocket money :)
haunter 6 hours ago||
I wish there were dual layer RW discs. Afaik some were made but they never hit the consumer market in the end
htor 4 hours ago|
I think what we are all really questioning about is: how many times can it be rewritten in Rust?
Sharlin 2 hours ago|
No, this is optical media, rewriting in rust only pertains to magnetic storage.
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