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Posted by kevinak 22 hours ago

Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video](www.youtube.com)
197 points | 200 commentspage 3
zeronight 17 hours ago|
The part I can't get past, where would you source live human brain cells?

Does anyone have insight into how you would even start to source or grow/create the cells?

Also the machines look very organic and clearly have to keep the cells alive. Do they have to change them out every so often?

drzaiusx11 17 hours ago||
There's a number of "immortal" human cell lines dating back to as far as the 1950s (you may have heard of Henrietta Lacks? [1] and the immortal HeLa cell line).

Today there are several immortalized neuron cell lines used in research to model neuronal function, like HeLa but of neuron type obviously, that are also typically derived from tumours (e.g., SH-SY5Y, PC12) or immortalized via genetic modification (e.g., v-myc) like CTX0E03 [2] which was designed to allow for continuous growth in the presence of particular reagents.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Lacks

2. https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/reneuron-announces-...

Aerroon 16 hours ago||
This definitely helped with my disgust reaction.
drzaiusx11 16 hours ago||
Besides not getting consent in the case of HeLa, which part do you find problematic? Cancerous cell's ability to self-clone/grow is as much a feature as it is a bug in this particular use case.

I ask as someone who's has personally experienced loss of several loved ones from cancer (as most people my age probably have), but doesn't share your aversion to this particular use case (research.)

Aerroon 16 hours ago||
I meant that the original article evoked disgust, but finding out that they're cancer cells muted that a bit.
drzaiusx11 16 hours ago||
Yeah I do feel the OA is being overly flippant with their use of human cells here, likely for PR sake, which would be an ethical breach for me personally. Overall though, I find most research cases for human cell lines to be in line with my personal ethics. Neuron lines can certainly be used for good or ill, and this case leans towards the latter, although understanding the human brain may justify this line of work in the long term. If only we didn't live in a militaristic late stage capitalist society...
fenykep 17 hours ago|||
I think the Thought Emporium youtube channel has some explanatory [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEXefdbQDjw) of the whole process. I couldn't wrap my head around the thing tho.
hessart 9 hours ago|||
ahem

If you're in the US, you can buy human neurons online at sciencellonline.com/en/human-neurons/

lateforwork 11 hours ago||
They are lab grown.
falsaberN1 11 hours ago||
Hot take here, but I think the version of this experiment that used rat neurons instead of human neurons was more interesting. I can't look for the link right now but there's a video on Youtube, the equipment and techniques are fairly similar.

We know a human can play Doom, so it kind of makes sense a portion of a human brain can do so in some fashion. But it's way more interesting when an animal that normally doesn't play Doom can, specially if it's just a portion of its brain.

Outside of that, I'm personally not very fond of hardware that can rot or die from malnutrition though. It's fun as an experiment, but as a thing you can actually use I just don't see it. It has a literal limited lifespan, requires more maintenance and imagine trying to debug it ("Turns out it caught some bacteria and it's malfunctioning" kinda scenarios? No thanks.)

adrianN 10 hours ago|
I imagine the point is not replacing hardware with neurons, but improving our ability to understand in vivo brains.
pear01 12 hours ago||
For those of you taken aback by this and perhaps seeking out some theoretical context this may be useful as a primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware_computer

Was surprised to see no mention of wetware in the comments.

felixhummel 6 hours ago||
The anime Psycho-Pass comes to mind.
lp4v4n 20 hours ago||
It’s the first time I’ve heard about this company, and of course I haven’t taken the time to check how real their product is, but honestly, for me it’s very difficult to believe we currently have the technology to correctly integrate a living neuron into a chip, let alone compute anything meaningful with it.

From what I’ve read elsewhere, our understanding of neurons is still very basic, and we need a lot more fundamental research before reaching results like these. We still don’t even properly know how migraines work, nor can we cure paraplegia, yet somehow we supposedly have the capacity to grow second brains and program them on top of that.

Gooblebrai 19 hours ago||
You don't need to understand how neurons work in detail to be able to use them to do something. In the past, we were able to use electricity for various purposes without knowing about electrons.
lp4v4n 17 hours ago||
But my point is: have we really reached a technological level where we can use neurons like replaceable car parts? That video seems to suggest yes, but I’m still skeptical.

My impression is that this company is offering a product that’s still beyond our technological capabilities, much like the cold‑fusion startups that pop up from time to time.

everforward 20 hours ago|||
I haven’t looked into it deeply either.

To my knowledge, we understand how an individual neuron works quite well. We just don’t really understand macro effects in large networks of neurons.

The video seems buzz wordy. Without looking into this too deeply, it seems like they’re using neurons individually or in small groups rather than creating a true “brain”. I would guess they’re using neurons or small groups of them sort of like transistors that do a single basic thing rather than a full “brain” that they just feed images to.

lp4v4n 17 hours ago||
Maybe I wasn’t explicit about this point, but I’m not only talking about understanding the biological processes behind a neuron. I’m also talking about our ability to manipulate them in something like an industrial process, combining them with hardware in a controlled way and achieving reliable results.

Cells have a metabolism, right? They need to be fed and require a specific environment to survive. They age and can die, and they can be attacked by other microorganisms. Are all of these problems solved and applicable on an industrial scale? I had no idea.

Why aren’t we fixing people’s retinas and paraplegia if we can manipulate neurons with that level of precision?

sippeangelo 15 hours ago||
From their video it just comes across as they stimulate different left/right neurons depending on where the enemy is on screen and then listen to some output that also says left/right. Shooting looks completely random, to be frank.

If you connected electrodes to two different fish, shocked them and interpreted twitching as intelligent output, fish could also play Doom. The interface is doing all the work.

It doesn't sound like the neurons have any concept of the game other than "left input means left output", which is a rather trivial result... It's effectively no different than the pong example.

They don't say anything on how much training is required for this to happen, or if there's any "learning" going on at all. The learning part is "next".

Frieren 20 hours ago||
Billions of living human brain cells have played Doom in a number of different devices for a couple of decades now.

What would be surprising is for dead human cells to play anything at all.

juliangamble 5 hours ago||
I am so proud to be an Australian technologist today.
llagerlof 9 hours ago||
So we get the technology to put living brain cells in a virtual simulation, and the first thing we do is put them in hell?

Classic humans.

ReptileMan 5 hours ago|
Hell in which you have shotgun and chainsaw and victims is actually heaven.
rickcarlino 20 hours ago||
It is going to be quite the ethical dilemma if/when these machines produce text output comparable to a modern LLM...
ivell 17 hours ago|
When they answer back to us in personal pronouns, we will always be wondering if it is like LLM just putting most probable words together or something really sentient.

When someone makes a virtual girlfriend of it, is it really a disembodied person or just a smart answering machine?

A whole lot of ethical and psychological issues are to open up here.

nilamo 15 hours ago||
> When someone makes a virtual girlfriend of it, is it really a disembodied person or just a smart answering machine?

And when you put that virtual girlfriend's brain into a sex bot, is it rape?

lateforwork 11 hours ago|
Could this be the solution for AGI? Real (albeit lab-grown) human brain cells packaged as "chips"?
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