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Posted by throwawayffffas 3 hours ago

Kuwaiti F/A-18's Triple Friendly Fire Shootdown Gets Stranger by the Day(www.twz.com)
130 points | 112 comments
JasonADrury 1 hour ago|
"Fighter jet pilot" is a really cool job.

Guess who gets the cool jobs in these countries? Typically not the most highly motivated individuals, but the children of influential people who pull strings to make it happen.

Guess how easy it's to fire those people when they don't pay that much attention during training?

everybodyknows 1 hour ago||
I knew a USAF flight instructor who trained foreign "guest" students: Said washing out the trainee was not an option, not even after mistakes like shutting down an engine in flight.
igleria 1 hour ago|||
Why would fighter pilot be as nepo-baby compatible as, dunno, actor/actress? Asking truthfully, I'm not american, not in the military, etc.
TheScaryOne 6 minutes ago|||
The Sultan bin Salman was the first Arab, first Muslim, and first Royal in space, on the NASA Challenger flight before its fateful flight. He was a fighter pilot for the Saudi Air Force with 1000's of flight hours.
JasonADrury 1 hour ago||||
Too many nepo babies and too little state owned movie production in the Gulf?

Also flying modern fighter jets is the kind of fun that's typically very hard to buy with money, so you take the opportunity when available.

zardo 1 hour ago||||
A fighter pilot is the modern military equivalent of a medieval knight.
duxup 34 minutes ago||
Even the early Roman legions were composed of land owning citizens. Partly because they could afford / knew people they could get equipment from. Also likely because you wanted people in the establishment that you could trust armed and the power that went with it.
cloverich 21 minutes ago||
I believe the latter was key and democratization of the armed forced was at least one reason the dictators (Julius etc) were able to maintain loyalty of their troops as they eliminated the republic as such. Im not super well read here though.

Higher level, Fukuyamas political order series does a great deep dive into these kinds of topics, really blew my mind, and made many archaic seeming political structures make far more intuitive sense to me afterwards.

senkora 5 minutes ago||
I’ll have to give those a read. For others, I’ve linked their wiki pages below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origins_of_Political_Order

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Order_and_Political_...

fmajid 1 hour ago||||
They wouldn't trust a non-family member with weapons that could decapitate the country's kleptocratic monarchy.
fatbird 1 hour ago||||
In those countries (i.e., middle eastern countries) power and wealth is usually more connected to gov't and the military rather than independent industries. If you are a nepo-baby, your opportunities will tend to be more gov't/military than celebrity or corporate.
m463 1 hour ago|||
are you talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_servic...

mothballed 1 hour ago|||
A remember a very, very, very high % of flight technology (basically flight school) majors in university being in ROTC. Paying for fuel is additional to tuition and it was extremely expensive. A lot of middle and lower class who wanted to be commercial pilots joined the military to get it paid for. No idea how many became fighter jet pilot, I assume most of them got jobs doing something more boring like troop or materials transport.

I would go so far to say as commercial flight is dominated by very rich people who could afford to do the commercial ratings on their own, or middle/lower class people that became military pilots to pay for it.

nradov 50 minutes ago||
Very few rich people become commercial pilots. They might get a private pilot license as a hobby but generally pilots are just employees they hire to take them around.

Plenty of working airline pilots come from regular middle-class backgrounds and never served in the military. They take out student loans to pay for training, then work low-paying jobs as flight instructors or something to build up enough flight hours to get hired at a regional airline.

Those who go the ROTC route can totally get a fighter jet assignment if they want it. Once they get selected for a pilot slot, assignment to a particular airframe is primarily based on how they perform in the training pipeline.

sschueller 1 hour ago|||
Cool job? Being ordered to drop bombs on schools filled with children doesn't seems like a cool job..
JasonADrury 1 hour ago|||
I'll spell it out: A lot of air force pilots in these countries end up being rich kids who do it because it's a fun hobby, not motivated soldiers.

Because many of these people see it as a fun hobby, they don't spend much time worrying about potentially being ordered to drop bombs on schools filled with children. It's rather unlikely that their government would order them to do so anyway, compare a list of countries being hit by Iran with a list of countries bombing Iran.

singleshot_ 1 hour ago|||
When you say, “these countries,” I imagine you include the United States, where politically connected youngsters like George W. Bush secured and then ignored jet interceptor training during the 1960s?
JasonADrury 1 hour ago|||
Be that as it may, I think we can agree that the USAF is not the same as the air forces of the Gulf countries.
mvdtnz 1 hour ago|||
Not everyone agrees that America is special. You haven't convincingly won a conflict in how long, so we're not really convinced your military is as exceptional as you like to say.
JasonADrury 1 hour ago||
I'm not American
baybal2 1 hour ago|||
[dead]
true_religion 1 hour ago|||
I would include the USA, with the caveat that in the US being sent to the military is often seen as a punishment for rich children where as in the Middle East being sent to the military can be an opportunity to build an independent power base for yourself or your family.
nradov 45 minutes ago||
The USA has a volunteer military. Occasionally there are cases where the criminal court system might agree to dismiss a minor charge if the defendant enlists. But that doesn't happen to rich people, or those joining as commissioned officers (pilot track).
morkalork 1 hour ago|||
Air force pilots are the modern day knights of the sky. Also, up until WW2, which social class you were from determined whether or not you were going to be an officer or canon fodder so rich kids swooping their way into being captains is historically normal.
breppp 55 minutes ago||
Actually during the time when the nobility went to be fighter pilots it was a suicidal role with very low survival rates (ww1)
dylan604 1 hour ago||||
Pilots are not told they are dropping bombs on a school filled with kids. They are told it is a headquarters or storage or bunker or whatever.
axus 1 hour ago||||
It's a "high status" job. Doing the high status jobs correctly isn't always easy.
kakacik 1 hour ago||||
What does that have to do with anything? They went through training in different times when conflicts were not on their plate. During peace it is a cool job, you know not every air force around the world bombs schools, in fact most don't.

Anybody who ever went through arab countries with eyes opened saw the massive nepotism and corruption at all levels. Army/air force ain't immune to this, in contrary. Do you think ie some general or politician's first son would be treated and pushed up same as common folks?

esseph 1 hour ago|||
> Cool job? Being ordered to drop bombs on schools filled with children doesn't seems like a cool job..

That was a launched cruise missile from a ship, targeted by an LLM. Apparently the grounds USED to be a valid military target long ago (a decade? I'm not sure exactly) and now there's a school there.

sschueller 1 hour ago|||
Taking out the human factor makes it so much worse.

Building an LLM is one thing but building one specifically to pick targets is another.

For me knowing that my actions may have contributed direcly to the death of anyone is not something I want to live with.

dgroshev 1 hour ago|||
> targeted by an LLM

I don't think it's a known fact at this point.

lm28469 1 hour ago|||
> Guess who gets the cool jobs in these countries?

What do you mean by "these countries"? What you lived in "these countries"? What do you know about 'these countries". It sounds like something someone who can't locate Africa on a globe or thinks "arab" is a nationality would say

myrmidon 1 hour ago|||
Presumably he means countries with somewhat higher levels of nepotism in the military than the US.

MENA countries (excepting Israel here) are known to suffer from this significantly, and it is a big factor in their militaries historically underperforming.

It is a valid point to bring this up as possible cause or factor, no need to get all defensive about it.

JasonADrury 1 hour ago|||
I've lived and worked in the Gulf for half my life, I think I know what "these countries" are like.
roncesvalles 1 hour ago||
In almost all countries, military is seen as a "working class" profession, even joining as an officer. I don't think the rich and influential consider it an option for their kids.

Btw fighter pilot is extremely physically taxing. It's not for everyone. Any degree of motion sickness and you're out. Everyone joins the air force wanting to become a fighter pilot but only a small percentage can.

JasonADrury 1 hour ago|||
There are exactly zero places in the world where "fighter jet pilot" is seen as a "working class" profession.

And my whole point was that it's often not a profession, but a hobby.

breppp 1 hour ago||||
> In almost all countries, military is seen as a "working class" profession

In western countries that's the case. In autocratic countries it is essential to keep control of the army by placing the equivalent of the royal family in charge.

Also, fighter pilots were historically considered as the successors for cavalry and manned by the nobility, in Arab countries this means the ruling elite

true_religion 1 hour ago|||
The saying it’s true for officers seems to need greater support since historically officers were always nobility or from the leadership class. Today, in countries that are not full democracies, the leadership wants the military controlled by favorable people and that means family members.
brunohaid 2 hours ago||
Scott Purdue has a couple of good videos on the incident https://youtube.com/@flywirescottperdue

A pilot not trained well on visually IDing some of the most common military planes would be quite a training lapse.

greedo 1 hour ago|
Mistaken ID once is conceivable. Twice is not. Three times, with one shot being within visual range, is malice.
chasd00 1 hour ago||
I'd like to see the youtuber GrowlingSidewinder reproduce the scenario in DCS. The F18 and AIM9 are completely modeled in DCS and about as accurate of a sim as it gets.

Here's his sim (at least he first few min) of the situation a few days ago but facing SAMs and not F18s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7XpVcUV_vQ

preisschild 45 minutes ago|
> The F18 and AIM9 are completely modeled in DCS and about as accurate of a sim as it gets.

Sure, but not the weather conditions and visibility.

And "as accurate of a sim as it gets" isn't true either. War Thunder has much better missile physics.

chasd00 22 minutes ago||
I probably shouldn't have come off so confident sounding ( i swear i'm not an LLM ). When my 8th grader gets home, my DCS and military aircraft/weapons consultant, i'll discuss this with him him and comment again.
daft_pink 49 minutes ago||
I feel like this important context wasn’t mentioned in the article, but my understanding is that the Kuwaitii used the sidewinder because they were targeting drones and that it’s significantly cheaper to use this infrared guided missile vs an expensive radar guided missile against drones.

The issue is that once they shot the heat seaking missile, they aren’t able to select a specific target the way they could with a radar guided missile, so the tool made a lot of sense for what the Kuwaitii pilot was actually doing to the mission planner who may not have realized the proximity to American fighter jets.

1024core 1 hour ago||
Most of this is just speculation until the Kuwaiti pilot is identified. If it turns out he is a Shia muslim, then it'll open up a new dimension on this event.

History buffs may remember that the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia was the catalyst that turned OBL into America's foe. He had offered his services to the King to defend KSA against Saddam Hussein (after Saddam swallowed Kuwait), but the King politely refused and speed dialled the USA instead. The rest is history.

red-iron-pine 49 minutes ago||
there is 0% chance that a fighter pilot in the Kingdom of Kuwait is a Shia.

only people flying in Kuwait are those with connections to the Emir and his people, and they're unambiguously Sunni

I'd be more concerned with the US just pissing off the Sunnis, stuff like

> In January 2026, the United States government suspended immigrant visas for citizens of Kuwait and 74 other countries due to the high dependency of Kuwaiti immigrants on American welfare benefits.[219] Kuwait is the only GCC country on the visa suspension list.[219]

breppp 44 minutes ago||
Saying the presence of American troops is the reason Bin Laden was anti-american is ideological flattening of Islamism, a movement from at least the 1920s that sees the entire failure of Islam in modernity as a product of western imperialism (a word that is very abused in their ideas), culture and ideas
_DeadFred_ 6 minutes ago||
OBL stated his reasons including the stationing of American troops in Saudi Arabia.
foxyv 55 minutes ago||
It feels really weird to see C.W. Lemoine showing up in news. I'm used to watching him put random pilots in DCS VR sim pits.
usui 2 hours ago||
What did the videos originally link to? It just shows "Sorry, this post is no longer available."
p_ing 2 hours ago||
That’s you ad blocker. They’re still up.
andrewflnr 2 hours ago||
Sometimes it'll show that while the embed is still loading.
krona 2 hours ago||
The Kuwaiti air force doesn't use F-15E. The F-15E looks quite similar to the Iranian Mig-29 especially from above. I've got no idea how Kuwaiti fast jet pilots are trained but it's not inconceivable that pilot had never seen an F-15E in the flesh before.
inaros 2 hours ago||
>> it's not inconceivable that pilot had never seen an F-15E in the flesh before.

This is such a joke I cant even imagine how you can formulate this thought...

- Exercise Marauder Shield 26.1 (Nov. 2025) "U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle aircraft assigned to the 391st Expeditionary Fighter Squadron takeoff during Exercise Marauder Shield in the U.S. Central Command area of responsibility, Nov. 8, 2025. A key element of the exercise was the sharpening of combined fighter capabilities between the U.S. and Kuwait Air Forces. This included joint training exercises and hot-pit refueling operations."

- CENTCOM Bomber Task Force mission (July 2022)

"..During the BTF, two B-52H Stratofortresses, assigned to the U.S. Air Force Global Strike Command, conducted theater integration training and operations with a variety of U.S. Air Force, partner and ally aircraft, including F-15/18, RJ-135, E-3, KC-135/10/46, FGR-4, and A-330..."

"The bombers’ flight originated at Royal Air Force (RAF) Fairford, England, and flew over the Eastern Mediterranean, Arabian Peninsula and Red Sea before departing the region. The mission included fighter escorts from the Royal Air Force and the Air Forces of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia...."

"...“Communication is critical,” said Wong, who also serves as the Deputy Director of Combat Operations, Combined Air Operations Center. “By enhancing lines of communication, we are able to establish a clear and direct line in real time amongst the Air Operations Centers of all nations participating..."

toast0 2 hours ago||
> A key element of the exercise was the sharpening of combined fighter capabilities between the U.S. and Kuwait Air Forces

Well, the Kuwaitis seem pretty sharp? Three shootdowns is a lot in the modern era. The F-22 program only has two air to air kills in its whole history.

ericmay 1 hour ago|||
> Well, the Kuwaitis seem pretty sharp?

Do they? If they shot down 3 friendly aircraft that would be a catastrophically stupid mistake which would imply they are, in fact, not that sharp (or at least this specific unit and chain of command).

> The F-22 program only has two air to air kills in its whole history

A very poor comparison point given that the F-22 has had limited opportunities for engagement. And just a poor comparison overall.

foxyv 1 hour ago|||
It is very easy to shoot down friendly aircraft because they don't usually shoot back. They fly in nice straight lines because they don't expect to be shot down at any moment by their allies. They don't employ ECM against you. They don't terrain mask. But, maybe you are joking?
toast0 1 hour ago||
None of the other air forces involved shot down three F-15s, so I don't think it's that easy.

If I'm skimming this page [1] well enough (find: "shot down"), there's only 6 F-15s that have been shot down, and only 4 or them were air-to-air. If it's so easy, should be more than one other incident, and that guy only got one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F-15_losses

lumost 2 hours ago|||
Given Kuwaiti air force pilots would have dealt with Saudi/US/Iraqi F-15 operators, that seems highly unlikely.
nradov 2 hours ago|||
Kuwaiti air force F/A-18 pilots receive most of their training in the USA so most likely they would have seen some F-15 model in flight. That doesn't rule out a case of target misidentification but it's very odd and suspicious.
throwawayffffas 40 minutes ago|||
My bet is ground control tasked him, and he saw them from the rear and at great distance, and thought they were F-14s.
sheikhnbake 2 hours ago|||
That would be a pretty huge GCI failure
sidewndr46 2 hours ago||
I do not know how F-18 controls work but from what I understand lots of jet controls include the equivalent of a "safety" that can be used to prevent the weapon from being launched. Maybe the pilot thought he had it engaged?

The secondary thing here I've realized is that the missiles in question must not have been using active homing. If they were then the pilots of the US aircraft would have taken evasive action as soon as their radar warning receiver lit up.

mig39 2 hours ago|||
That could explain one accidental shootdown. It cannot conceivably explain three.
altairprime 1 hour ago||
How easy is it in an F-15E to modify a friend to a foe in the targeting systems?
nradov 1 hour ago||
The IFF system will trigger warning symbology on various cockpit displays but it won't prevent the pilot from employing weapons. At this point we don't know for certain whether IFF was enabled and working correctly on any of the aircraft involved.
mvdtnz 1 hour ago||||
> I've realized is that the missiles in question must not have been using active homing.

This is covered in the article so it's weird to present it as an original thought.

Toutouxc 1 hour ago|||
> I've realized is that the missiles in question must not have been using active homing

Sorry, but it's totally funny that your nick is literally "Sidewinder".

skibz 2 hours ago||
How much time elapsed between each aircraft being hit?
cozzyd 2 hours ago|
Probably testing grok-based targeting system.
steveBK123 2 hours ago||
@grok is this true? /s
strangattractor 2 hours ago||
Grok stuck in DOGE mode.
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